194 replies to this topic

[ArmandTulsen]

IS mechs easy mode... lol...

Oh, wait, he's serious?

[xXBagheeraXx]

Pretty much. But nobody wants to say this because "clan mechs are OP" Id rather fight a madcat over a black knight any day.

[JigglyMoobs]

Walsung, on 14 May 2016 - 01:18 AM, said:

ISLPL doing ~25 damage to a location and 8 points splashed over an adjacent location (21 heat 21 tones 6 slots)
CLMPL doing 28 damage to a location with 20 points splashed over adjacent locations (36 heat 12 tones 6 slots)

Are you seriously comparing is lpl with optimum range of 450 and Max of 900 vs cmpl with optimum 330 ish max 530ish???

Edit: that's 400ish optimum with 800ish max versus 360 optimum with 600ish max. The point being you will not be able to use c mpl the same way you can use is lpl.

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with the lower weight and the vastly increased space efficiency of clan endo you can fairly easily close the heat difference if you chose to (or add in more weapons for a bigger alpha which is why so many clanners run so hot).

What clan mech gets 58 alpha with nearly 9 DPS sustainable for almost a minute using lpls?

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leaving you with a fairly similar amount of focused damage with a roughly 50% bonus as splash

No you don't. Your assumptions are bs. You're comparing the wrong laser, neglecting the fact that IS mechs turn faster and thereby track better, their weapons register better due to lower burn time, people have less time to react, leading to lowerer spread from twisting, and the mech takes less damage due to lower face time, which is pretty damn important considering this game is not about the output but the trade.

To top it off you have the blk basically as tough as a pre-quirk Atlas, and it even strafes better due to better acceleration.

For the rest Aresey already covered it. You did your math wrong, and you're not even accounting for half the things that are important.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 14 May 2016 - 02:51 AM.

[Lykaon]

Dakota1000, on 09 May 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

I play as a Clanner in CW but use a lot of IS mechs in quick play. I've been finding that my IS mechs preform much better than the clan ones, though the clan mechs do tend to have similar or higher damage outputs.

My IS mechs seem to be more efficient in their damage, when I look at weapon stats I can see why. The SRMs have less spread, the ballistics fire in a single slug, the laser beam durations are much shorter, quirks are thrown in to further improve those stats, I even get durability boosts on some mech variants. Ghost heat is also more forgiving allowing me to hit with alpha strikes without much worry when it would be handy to.

Basically my Atlas is walking nigh unkillable destruction, My Mauler rains death on enemies with heavy ballistics further out than a Dire Wolf and with more speed and higher mounts, My Banshee can run around with 5 large pulse lasers and cut down a third of a team with ease. All of these mechs can just cut right through enemies with ease, armor gone in a couple hits, and I end a game with 3-5 solo kills on average.

However on the Clan side I find I have to work more to poke and push and dodge and spread damage and make sure to always stay out of range of any IS mech and hope I can get my beam's full burn on a target before they can fire a shot off. If I'm going and using my Hellbringers and hitting enemies with either quad ERLLs or dual LPL dual ERML or something similar its not nearly as easy as when I am in an IS mech. Armor just falls off the thing and structure doesn't take much to finish off when going against things like IS ballistics or LPLs or even SRM bursts.

I've honestly found my triple LPL Hunchback 4p to be able to kill off Hellbringers with ease and Oxides nearby basically mean I'm a dead man if one targets me while I'm in a Hellbringer even though if I'm in an IS mech they just vaporize the moment they get in range.

I've always liked efficient killing rather than just being able to spam out damage, and that seems to be what the IS is offering now. Maybe I've signed up for the wrong side in community warfare.

What have you guys noticed when playing on both sides?

I'm not sure what you're experiencing compared to what I experience.

Here is what I find.

I almost always play I.S. except last weekend. I was having a long stretch of losses in quick play puglandia. It was actually suprising how bad the teams I was assigned were on an average. There was pretty much nothing I could do to support a team so intent on losing.

No one was following any plans or organizing no one seemed capable of focus fire or coordination on any level.

So getting sick of watching my PSR score tank I switched to my clan mechs.

By using what I find to be "easy mode" clan mechs I was able to end matches my team lost with either a small increase in PSR or at least an equal rating.

My two mechs I used most often were.

Arctic Cheetah with ECM and 6 ER Sml Lasers
Ebon Jaguar with 2 UAC 10s and 6 ER Sml Lasers

For a couple of matches I used a Stormcrow with 3 SSRM6 racks and 6 ER Sml Lasers.(not my favorite build but one that excels in faction warfare scouting)

I also used a Jenner IIc (super oxide) 300XL max armor ferro and endo 4 SRM4 6 tons ammo and 2 jump jets.(a faster jump capable Oxide with more ammo at the cost of the quirks)

My findings are as follows.

Lacking in structure quirks is largely off set by the clan XL engine.It really didn't matter if I didn't have 12 or so extra structure on a side torso if my mech had the capacity to survive the loss of a side torso as well as being generally faster or better armed than an I.S. counterpart.

ER Small Lasers are incredible firepower for the tonnage easily keeping pace with an I.S. medium laser. and all this concern over shorter laser burn duration?The difference is literally one tenth of a second between the Medium laser and the Clan ER -Small.My most common opposition Inner Sphere mech would probably be the Blackknight BL6 KNT and that mech doesn't even have laser duration quirks but I will tell you what most of the comp builds do have. An I.S. suicide box XL engine and an optimal engagment range under 300m (Lrg pulse and med lasers builds)


I find many many clan pilots that argue that the clan tech is inferior severely under rate the clan XL engine. I can't even count the number of kills I have landed in an arctic cheetah with one of my side torsos blown off. Any inner sphere light mech build with even remotely comparable performance would have been destroyed after the side torso breach.

[Walsung]

Aresye, on 14 May 2016 - 01:25 AM, said:

I've already crunched the numbers. It heavily favors IS.

nice maths comparing 17 tons worth of weaponry in a 65 ton mech not using modules (don't they work? in clan mechs) to 26 tons worth of weaponry on a 75 ton mech and finding the 50% increase in weapon mass offers some advantages.

[JigglyMoobs]

Walsung, on 14 May 2016 - 02:40 AM, said:

nice maths comparing 17 tons worth of weaponry in a 65 ton mech not using modules (don't they work? in clan mechs) to 26 tons worth of weaponry on a 75 ton mech and finding the 50% increase in weapon mass offers some advantages.

We're comparing mechs not just lasers. What can you bring to a medium range engagement from clan that outfights is blk in the hands of an equally skilled pilot? The answer is nothing.

[Walsung]

LPL is the closest that any IS weapon comes to it's clan equivalent.

so in a short to medium engagement were IS does best in a mech that was from it's outset supposed to be a brawler, yes that is going to be a tough sell. But few 60-65 ton mechs compare favorably to most 75 ton mechs. and in any instance the ebj is more likely to be able to dictate the range of the engagement and disengage if out of position (and has better hard point locations).

And yes it sucks to fight a BLK no matter what your ride is

[Lykaon]

JigglyMoobs, on 14 May 2016 - 02:54 AM, said:

We're comparing mechs not just lasers. What can you bring to a medium range engagement from clan that outfights is blk in the hands of an equally skilled pilot? The answer is nothing.

Ok so we will not shoot at the Black Knight until it's at it's optimal range? How about while we are at it we are not allowed to target it's side torso because that will kill it outright because of the suicide box of an engine that most comp build Black Knights use.

So you want a suggestion? I have had a great deal of success in using a Jenner IIc SRM build blasting off the side torso from behind.A mech half the tonnage of it's target is very effective.I have also had loads of success with Arctic Cheetahs doing the same.

Even in a fairly conventional fight my Ebon Jags do fairly well (twin UAC10s 6x ER Sml).

You see the trick is,if you want to win you do not allow your enemy to dictate the terms of the battle. You DO NOT allow them to get into optimal range without shooting first. You DO NOT waltz up in front of their big old pile of laser death and let them face you.

Crunch all the numbers you like but in the end and average Black Knight has around 50 armor and structure points between it and death if you possition well. In practice this is less than 3 seconds of life if you get behind one with 6 clan small pulse lasers.

[Y E O N N E]

JigglyMoobs, on 14 May 2016 - 02:54 AM, said:

We're comparing mechs not just lasers. What can you bring to a medium range engagement from clan that outfights is blk in the hands of an equally skilled pilot? The answer is nothing.

Eh, you should be well-versed enough in this game to know that you never fight anything at its power level (hell, that's also a basic tenet of martial arts). The BK is fantastic at medium range overwatch, but it will get demolished if compelled to brawl and out-sniped if compelled to range. Clans are pretty decent at both of those.

I mean, look at Scout mode. What the heck do IS have that can mission-kill a Light in one or two shots that requires no user input outside of pulling the trigger when the computer tells them to? Nothing. What do the IS do, then? They spam ECM, bring range, or avoid fighting altogether. They pull the rug out from under the Streak strat. The counter to that? Bring lights and splat and compel the IS to brawl using 'Mechs that may or may not be optimum brawl machines that were taken for their ability to do ECM, range, or running. It goes back and forth, and you end up with tons of hybridized strats and contingency plans.

The BK isn't even a universal choice. It's strat and map dependent. If you want a brawl, how do you want to do overwatch? Do you want to bring WHM or BK? Do I need JJs and therefore a GHR or TBR? Do you want to dupe either? Do you want to go full-brawl and try to roll the enemy so fast their assumed overwatch is just wasted armor?

There are definite edges to 'Mechs in this game. I find that the edges are often exaggerated, though, enough to the point where superior planning, tactical response, and individual skill will trump the 'Mech. Yup, even at the top. You still see plenty of Storm Crows, plenty of Timber Wolves, plenty of Jenner IIC, plenty of Hunchback IIC, plenty of Novas, even the occasional Dire Wolf, Arctic Cheetah, and Hellbringer. Even the Shadow Cat and Ice Ferret have their uses. We're about to get the Kodiak, too, which many believe will replace the Atlas and Mauler.

The Clans are not really hurting for representation, and that's because they still have things to offer on the battlefield.

[JigglyMoobs]

The trouble with this argument is that everybody is trying to exploit their strength and some mechs right now have much more to exploit. The edge is not insurmountable but it's there.

When you are in comp, there are all sorts of weight limits, weapons limits and additional conditions. Eg, then Ms invitational required 6 clan and 6 is mechs in at least some of the matches. You also have specific strats or specific players who can maximally exploit some different strategy, but you can't deny the preeminance of certain is mechs at the moment.

And if you go into solo queue? The difference is night and day.

Yea, the Kodiak is gonna change things assaults, but that's "fixing" is advantage in lights, mediums and heavies by adding a ridiculous clan advantage in assaults.

Going back to the original thread subject, for solo queue at least, the meta is mechs are easier to play for sure. And now we're gonna get an easy mode clan assault.

That sorta fixes the situation if you feel the problem is insufficient clan "representation", but doesn't if you think the problem is that there shouldn't be significantly OP mechs to the extent we are getting now.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 14 May 2016 - 04:17 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

It's funny you more or less named almost all of the clan repertoire in that short couple of sentences. Also mauler has had its moment in the limelight(and I'm sure will stay there ) it's time for the clan to have a shot at being scary AF

[Gyrok]

Walsung, on 14 May 2016 - 03:23 AM, said:

LPL is the closest that any IS weapon comes to it's clan equivalent.

I think you mean, the LPL is the most powerful energy weapon in the game inside it's own primary engagement range, and is egregiously more powerful than any clan energy weapon in the game, since clan launch.

If you are confused, look at the damage per tick and compare

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so in a short to medium engagement were IS does best in a mech that was from it's outset supposed to be a brawler, yes that is going to be a tough sell. But few 60-65 ton mechs compare favorably to most 75 ton mechs. and in any instance the ebj is more likely to be able to dictate the range of the engagement and disengage if out of position (and has better hard point locations).

All maps are designed to be short/medium range engagements, all maps have sufficient cover to make any match a short/medium range engagement, and it takes extreme effort to keep an enemy at range, while it is comparatively easy to close on most maps. So, IS has the best laser weapons, the best ballistics, the best SRMs, the cooler running weapons, and better DPS up close, they also get more structure and agility quirks, and weapons quirks, and the icing on the cake is that the only advantage clans have is irrelevant because you essentially cannot keep an enemy at range indefinitely if they want to use cover and close the gap.

Sure. Sounds like IS has it so bad...all of their advantages are the only ones that matter...

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And yes it sucks to fight a BLK no matter what your ride is and it is worse in a clan mech

FTFY!

[Dirkdaring]

Not sure about easy mode, but went from a Hellbringer to a Marauder and my KDR went from about 1 to 1.36 (109 matches plated so far in it). I stopped playing my Dire due to how terrible it is to play unless you have seriously good support.

Edited by Dirkdaring, 14 May 2016 - 08:26 AM.

[Kael Posavatz]

Haven't touched the FW with IS mechs, but, yeah, I've done a lot of quick play with them.

A lot of quick play.

I kinda-sorta miss the range advantage the Clans have, but heat management is awesome. I mean, enjoy-dropping-on-Terra-Therma-in-a-LaserVom-awesome. And the structure buffs are nice, but the dwell time on the lasers is...wow. Kind of a toss-up on the autocannons, sometimes I want the dakka-dakka of the Clans with their increased crit-chance (one per round, 4 round burst on the -20), and sometimes I want that in-your-face Boom of the IS-20. I do like that I don't have to worry about the IS guns jamming (aside from the UAC-5). The Clan standard autos just never seem to work right for me. Though the giant shotgun LB-X series is occasionally a nice thing, but it isn't something I utilize a great deal.

So...yeah. I'm not sure if I'd call the IS 'easy mode', and I like some of the advantages the Clans have. But I flat-out enjoy playing IS mechs in Quickplay. I only wish I got as much enjoyment out of Clan-side FW.

Edited by Kael Posavatz, 14 May 2016 - 08:41 AM.

[Aresye]

Lykaon, on 14 May 2016 - 02:39 AM, said:

My most common opposition Inner Sphere mech would probably be the Blackknight BL6 KNT and that mech doesn't even have laser duration quirks but I will tell you what most of the comp builds do have. An I.S. suicide box XL engine and an optimal engagment range under 300m (Lrg pulse and med lasers builds)

1. The main BK variant that comp players use DOES have laser duration quirks.
2. Most comp players are good enough at torso twisting to minimize and/or eliminate the XL disadvantage.
3. Most meta builds (IS and Clan) are asymmetric, so it doesn't really matter if you live or die if you lose that torso.
4. Comp players shoot for center torso, main weapon side, or legs. Specifically trying to go for an XL kill on their shield side is likely not going to work in the end, leaves them as a threat for most of the match, and is generally bad practice.
5. Comp players themselves admit that balance strongly favors IS at the current moment, with a few Clan mechs (ex: IIC's, Gargoyle, Ice Ferret) used in very niche situations.

Also, IS LPL+ML builds are what are called "mid-range" builds, and are used for engagements that are between 300-700m. They are most certainly effective beyond 300m, and if you actually read my previous post on page 7, you'd see that the BK does more damage/tick than the most popular laser vomit EBJ, even outside of its optimal range.

Lastly, in reference to you saying, "I will tell you what most of the comp builds do have," I'd like to hear about your comp experience.

[Adamski]

Aresye, on 14 May 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

1. The main BK variant that comp players use DOES have laser duration quirks.
2. Most comp players are good enough at torso twisting to minimize and/or eliminate the XL disadvantage.
3. Most meta builds (IS and Clan) are asymmetric, so it doesn't really matter if you live or die if you lose that torso.
4. Comp players shoot for center torso, main weapon side, or legs. Specifically trying to go for an XL kill on their shield side is likely not going to work in the end, leaves them as a threat for most of the match, and is generally bad practice.
5. Comp players themselves admit that balance strongly favors IS at the current moment, with a few Clan mechs (ex: IIC's, Gargoyle, Ice Ferret) used in very niche situations.

Also, IS LPL+ML builds are what are called "mid-range" builds, and are used for engagements that are between 300-700m. They are most certainly effective beyond 300m, and if you actually read my previous post on page 7, you'd see that the BK does more damage/tick than the most popular laser vomit EBJ, even outside of its optimal range.

Lastly, in reference to you saying, "I will tell you what most of the comp builds do have," I'd like to hear about your comp experience.

The ML / LPL Black Knight builds shouldn't be shooting at anything more than 500m away. You saying it is effective at 700m is giving it 50% more range than it really has.

Also, LOL at listening to comp players opinions after Silkens video of garbage.

Edited by Adamski, 14 May 2016 - 11:35 AM.

[El Bandito]

JigglyMoobs, on 14 May 2016 - 02:54 AM, said:

We're comparing mechs not just lasers. What can you bring to a medium range engagement from clan that outfights is blk in the hands of an equally skilled pilot? The answer is nothing.

In medium range yes, but the Timberwolf will demolish the BK in brawl range, and can out-snipe it. They have different strengths.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 May 2016 - 11:37 AM.

[JigglyMoobs]

El Bandito, on 14 May 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

In medium range yes, but the Timberwolf will demolish the BK in brawl range, and can out-snipe it. They have different strengths.

You have to specifically bring a SRM TBR to out brawl a blk, otherwise it usually will not.

Sniping gives up firepower. The sniping TBR with Gauss erppc can take down a blk, but the blk has more options for helping it's team. The Timby has to work harder and take more risks.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 14 May 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

In medium range yes, but the Timberwolf will demolish the BK in brawl range, and can out-snipe it. They have different strengths.

I've got quite a few brawling Black Knight builds that make quick work of what Timber Wolves can carry, the Timber Wolf can outsnipe it with very long range and high hardpoints, but at mid and close range its toast.

[kapusta11]

Dakota1000, on 14 May 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

I've got quite a few brawling Black Knight builds that make quick work of what Timber Wolves can carry, the Timber Wolf can outsnipe it with very long range and high hardpoints, but at mid and close range its toast.

Killing brain dead TBR pilots doesn't count.