334 replies to this topic

[Stahlherz]

DarklightCA, on 27 May 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

The only difference between KCom and most Merc units is that one kicks your *** as a loyalist and one does so as a merc.

I don't get that one.
KCom is a Merc unit.

[Kin3ticX]

Stahlherz, on 28 May 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

I don't get that one.
KCom is a Merc unit.

You have to really really really really like a faction to be a loyalist right now



like, if you dont have it tattoo'd on your arm, you probably may want to be a merc instead

[DarklightCA]

Contrex, on 28 May 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

Read once more.

I make it easy for you.

Unit X with active 40 members has 3 wins 1 lose. = wl ratio 3:1
Unit 228 has active 400 members 300 wins 100 loses = wl ratio 3:1

Unit X has no impact but is as good as 228.
But 228 is big. so you see their tags.
Thats math.

(pls dont start complaining about tags and rewards or what ever. I dont care about tags or rewards, i just use them to proofe! -
and i dont cry against MS or 228 in special. I just use them as an example. Maybe because most cryingposts in thread are wirtten by MS or 228 members, who simply dont want to understand simple math.)

Kcom is not compareable.
They have 7:1 wl . So every kcom member is double as worthy as a 228 member. Iam not mentioning kcom or evil because they are no problem. They are just super strong. Thats no problem, thats just as it should be.

First of all if you are going to use a real unit for reference you may as well get their actual numbers right and not assume them. 228 has 200 members of which only 70 or less of them are active of which only 8-14 of them play Faction Play on a regular basis. So your Unit X with 40 active members playing FP actually has more people gaining wins than 228 would have per ceasefire.

Secondly your figurative numbers don't mean anything to the actual statistics provided through the game where small and medium sized units are keeping pace in statistics and planet count with units larger than them. Those are the actual facts provided by the game that state you are incorrect.

Also KCom is very much comparable. They have a high win rate because they are a small unit that constantly groups together. Any small unit with decent players that constantly groups together will get a high win rate. 228 has beat KCom many times and KCom has beat 228 as well.

Any unit that can compete with another is comparable and in regards to statistics KCom is very much comparable to 228 in regards to map presence so how is that they are not the problem but 228 is when they equal the same amount of map presence, that makes no sense at all.

Edited by DarklightCA, 28 May 2016 - 12:11 PM.

[MischiefSC]

DarklightCA, on 28 May 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

First of all if you are going to use a real unit for reference you may as well get their actual numbers right and not assume them. 228 has 200 members of which only 70 or less of them are active of which only 8-14 of them play Faction Play on a regular basis. So your Unit X with 40 active members playing FP actually has more people gaining wins than 228 would have per ceasefire.

Secondly your figurative numbers don't mean anything to the actual statistics provided through the game where small and medium sized units are keeping pace in statistics and planet count with units larger than them. Those are the actual facts provided by the game that state you are incorrect.

Also KCom is very much comparable. They have a high win rate because they are a small unit that constantly groups together. Any small unit with decent players that constantly groups together will get a high win rate. 228 has beat KCom many times and KCom has beat 228 as well.

Any unit that can compete with another is comparable and in regards to statistics KCom is very much comparable to 228 in regards to map presence so how is that they are not the problem but 228 is when they equal the same amount of map presence, that makes no sense at all.

All the assumptions people make about MS too.

I don't know how many times this needs said but MS typically only has 2 12mans running, in primetime. 3 on a really busy day for a short period.

That's it.

2 12mans.

2 drops at once

Two.

24 players. 36 at most.

Generally about 24.

Two sets of 12.

6x4.

3x8.

Twenty four.

I don't know how else to put this for people. I don't know what language to use. Maybe more pictures? A documentary using sex scenes from Game of Thrones and a voice over by Morgan Freeman.

MS isn't that big in FW. Like every other group most their active players rarely play FW.

They just drop fast and dunk a lot. Like 1 in 3 or more matches he's end fast with a gen rush. So they drop almost 30% more. Also they tend to play longer, as in more total hours per team. They have about 16 hours out of the day rolling 12-24, most units are closer to 8 hours.

It's not the size of MS. It's not even their individual skill - they have some good players but no more than others. They have a great training system for getting new players up to median skill and following orders.

MS isn't winning because they're big or because they'reall leet. They win because they play FW for the wins, not kills, and their players play a lot.

The size of MS is irrelevant to their tags. Completely. Bigger units with more players all over the game. They just play to FWs mostly broken mechanics. That's it.

Unit caps would do nothing, absolutely nothing, to change this. Nothing. Well, not true. It would make fewer people play because they can't play with the units they want. It will have no impact, at all, in any way, on the impact of teams of players that play a lot and drop quickly and who focus on efficiency of flipping planets vs kills per hour.

[Contrex]

So if there would be an counter which shows the total amount and the %, It should be no problem for you! But if this counter says: 150 different players took part at FW you would accept a unit cut? I mean 150 would be a big impact or?

But nothing to fear for MS or 228 After only a few people are playing FW.

[MischiefSC]

Contrex, on 28 May 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

So if there would be an counter which shows the total amount and the %, It should be no problem for you! But if this counter says: 150 different players took part at FW you would accept a unit cut? I mean 150 would be a big impact or?

But nothing to fear for MS or 228 After only a few people are playing FW.

I would love an indicator on units for actual active in FW members.

Irrelevant though because again, unit caps wouldn't impact anything but how any people play FW, because telling people they can't play with who they want isn't going to make them magically create new groups or flow into existing groups. The idea is so oblivious of how people and groups work in any setting it's hard to even start on a list of why it doesn't work that way.

How about this - why are human populations not evenly distributed among every city and every country in the world? Obviously a bit bigger of a list of reasons but do you understand the concept?

Different units provide different experiences and draws. There are only so many leaders out there and their relative charisma and talents vary. There are a huge number of motivations to play and interests. Trying to force players to play with groups they don't want simply means less people will play and the things that win matches now will still work.

Just you'll have helped PGI give people less reason to play FW and MWO in general while improving absolutely nothing.

[Armando]

Danjo San, on 28 May 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

Contrex forget it, they fail to see the truth

You mean the truth that every time a merc unit signs a new contract 100% of their tags are removed from the map? Is that the truth we are failing to see?

Let's take a look at the "Boogieman Unit" that takes all your tags shall we....As of the time of this posting they have 37 attack wins, 84 defense wins, 121 total planetary wins. Now guess how many 'tags' they have. Go on...(hint: it is less than 4 but more than 2). By comparison DHBx, a 21 pilot unit with 2 attack wins, 4 defense wins, and 6 total planetary wins as just as many planets tagged...and did so playing 19,826 fewer matches I might add.

Every argument you have made as to why the "Boogieman Unit" should be broken up has been shown to be untrue....

....oh, they are the biggest (NOPE)
....oh, they are the most winning (NOPE)
....oh, they are the most active unit (NOPE)
....oh, they have the most tags (NOPE)

But ya, go head a split up teams that have never won a single attack or defense in FW because they are "Big", that will teach them to make friends easier than you do. Make your own friends and train...WAY to much work right. Don't have time for it right, but you should get all the same rewards as those who do right? Entitled snowflake is entitled right, but hay...as long as YOU get what YOU want F' everyone else right?

Edited by Armando, 28 May 2016 - 05:16 PM.

[Contrex]

Yeah ... going on with this discussion is a waste of time. But an indicator how big the impact of units membersice is, is not a waste of time.

So i will spam Russ_Bullock exactly this and hope this just shows people that big units HAVE big impact.

Way less waitingtime will make people stay at MWO.

You dont even know 20% of the people in a unit as big as swol and others and you do not play with them regularly as well. So if you dont play with them AND big units would have big impact, there is no reason to let big units be alive. ....

Mission for me: Annoy Russ with somekind of counter of big units, show the big units their impact and then just cut them.



Edit: @Armando.... thats exaclty what i said several times. I GIVE A **** ABOUT UNIT TAGS AND REWARDS. I JUST USED IT FOR MATH. I EVEN TOLD IT SEVERAL TIMES. I knew someone will use this
Thats so amazing how .... what ever.


You are just not seeing the Math. Maybe u will later. (But then u have another reason not to cut).
Your opinion is. MS and 228 are not big, at least they have not many people playing FW and they have now impact in the waiting time. If you think so any other written word is a waste of time. You see what you wanna see. Iam in a big unit as well, and i see what we do or can do. I even like the unit and the people in there, but i see the impact we have.

Last words said for me.

Edited by Contrex, 28 May 2016 - 03:25 PM.

[Armando]

Contrex, on 28 May 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

Edit: @Armando.... thats exaclty what i said several times. I GIVE A **** ABOUT UNIT TAGS AND REWARDS. I JUST USED IT FOR MATH. I EVEN TOLD IT SEVERAL TIMES. I knew someone will use this
Thats so amazing how .... what ever.

Sorry, who are you? Did I reply to a post you made and missed it?

[MischiefSC]

Except your math is wrong.

The math that actually matters you ignore.

I'm in a small unit. I'm just not oblivious to reality. Have a counter for active members in a unit, that's a great idea.

Doesn't change anything about social dynamics. Big units draw people to play and keep them playing longer. The only people who don't play because of big units are the ones who quit because they feel like they should be getting bigger rewards for less effort. The solution you're pushing for is "keep people from putting in more efforr/playing how they want".

Only impact of recruitment costs was.... fewer people playing. Not growth in small units. Just less people playing.

The problem in this discussion is you not understanding how people and groups work or what gets an impact in FW.

[Deathlike]

I would like people that talk about units.. actually be part of one, and then actually see how much unit activity actually happens.

Then you'll understand why a 60 member unit cap shows how little you know about the matter.

[Danjo San]

Armando, on 28 May 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

You mean the truth that every time a merc unit signs a new contract 100% of their tags are removed from the map? Is that the truth we are failing to see?

Let's take a look at the "Boogieman Unit" that takes all your tags shall we....As of the time of this posting they have 37 attack wins, 84 defense wins, 121 total planetary wins. Now guess how many 'tags' they have. Go on...(hint: it is less than 4 but more than 2). By comparison DHBx, a 21 pilot unit with 2 attack wins, 4 defense wins, and 6 total planetary wins as just as many planets tagged...and did so playing 19,826 fewer matches I might add.

Every argument you have made as to why the "Boogieman Unit" should be broken up has been shown to be untrue....

....oh, they are the biggest (NOPE)
....oh, they are the most winning (NOPE)
....oh, they are the most active unit (NOPE)
....oh, they have the most tags (NOPE)

But ya, go head a split up teams that have never won a single attack or defense in FW because they are 'Big", that will teach them to make friends easier than you do. Make your own friends and train...WAY to much work right. Don't have time for it right, but you should get all the same rewards as those who do right? Entitled snowflake is entitled right, but hay...as long as YOU get what YOU want F' everyone else right?

no you are right, i dont recruit i dont train i dont play i just want to ruin everything for you. You are absolutely right i just have a grudge on everyone else all my suggestions are dumb and irrelevant. You know what ... we should just all cluster into 11 groups, that will help right. 1 for each faction one for mercs. Yeah that will balance. So far all arguments against my constructive suggestions were accusations towards having a grudge or sucking at the game and being creamed. Or accusing me of being egoistic, where as all i am trying to suggest is a system that balances and includes casuals and leaves incetive for more than a chosen few. So yyah i get it now. Thanks for being condescending long enough for me too finally see... the magic formula is clear now: GET BIG OR GET OUT.
Got it.

[Armando]

Danjo San, on 28 May 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

So far all arguments against my constructive suggestions were accusations towards having a grudge or sucking at the game and being creamed.

The only suggestion I have seen you make, is to break up every unit that is larger than 48 members (I number I might add that WILL NOT affect YOUR unit AT ALL)....so, once you MAKE a constructive (blowing up units is the opposite of constructive, and at it's heart DESTRUCTIVE) THEN you might have a point. Of course this is not the case as it stands right now.
_____________________________________

If you are looking for an example of what a 'constructive' suggestion would look like I would point you to...

Make it so there are MULTIPLE tags on each planet.

1st Tag: The attacking / defending Faction unit that contributed the most to the attack / defense. (only faction units qualify to get this tag.)
2nd Tag: The mercenary unit that contributed the most to the attack / defense. (only mercenary units qualify to get this tag.)
3rd Tag: The attacking / defending unit from the 'outside' (not in Faction) that contributed the most to the attack / defense. (can be either a faction unit or a mercenary unit).

3 x the tags, Factions Units contribution to the attack / defense is represented EVEN IF the mercenary units did the 'heavy lifting' during the attack / defense.

...Makes it easier for Faction Units to have their contributions to Faction Warfare felt, WITHOUT, making people stop dropping with their friends.

Edited by Armando, 28 May 2016 - 06:29 PM.

[ccrider]

I'm gonna regret saying this probably, but here goes; big units are GOOD for the game.



*Waits for inevitable rock barrage.....


We have 118 members. 45 or so are active in FP. On our best day we have 18 playing FP in a particular ceasefire phase. Many of our guys were pugs who were ready to quit because solo pugging sucks. Many were f2p players. Now that they found a home, they spend money, spend more time in game and have more fun. We have plenty of members who don't play faction games but are well liked and fun to drop with in group queue or just chat with on ts. I don't want to be part of a system that requires me to cut guys just cause they don't play faction and therefore make us look bigger than we are. That's a terrible idea and would cost the community a lot of really great people and also cost the game in lost revenue. I get that it can suck to get beaten by a 12 man but there's a solution and it's free; download ts, group and coordinate. It's that simple. There will still be some teams better than you but your win percentage and enjoyment level will increase 10 fold if you just take the basic steps to get organized.

[Armando]

ccrider, on 28 May 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

I'm gonna regret saying this probably, but here goes; big units are GOOD for the game.



*Waits for inevitable rock barrage.....


We have 118 members. 45 or so are active in FP. On our best day we have 18 playing FP in a particular ceasefire phase. Many of our guys were pugs who were ready to quit because solo pugging sucks. Many were f2p players. Now that they found a home, they spend money, spend more time in game and have more fun. We have plenty of members who don't play faction games but are well liked and fun to drop with in group queue or just chat with on ts. I don't want to be part of a system that requires me to cut guys just cause they don't play faction and therefore make us look bigger than we are. That's a terrible idea and would cost the community a lot of really great people and also cost the game in lost revenue. I get that it can suck to get beaten by a 12 man but there's a solution and it's free; download ts, group and coordinate. It's that simple. There will still be some teams better than you but your win percentage and enjoyment level will increase 10 fold if you just take the basic steps to get organized.

That would require the whiners to actually make an effort, you know 'work' for it. This is something they are CLEARLY NOT willing to do, they want PGI to make it so they will be able to queue solo into a team game and win just as much as TEAMS do, without making ANY extra effort on their part what so ever.

[Armando]

Danjo San, on 28 May 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

the magic formula is clear now: GET BIG OR GET OUT.
Got it.

[KCom], [EVIL], [EmP], [Lords]....all of them are small units. ALL of them make a meaningful difference to the Faction Warfare Map. Invalid point is Invalid.

The real "Formula" is

'Get organized or get out'
or even
'Get training then practice your training or get out'.

I have personally requested PGI implement tools that make finding a unit easier. I have personally requested PGI provide better 'in game' training. Your suggestion...break up every group that is bigger than yours, regardless of the skill level of the group (You want to break up groups with sub .7 W/L and sub .5 K/D because....wait for it, wait for it, they are "Big").

Edited by Armando, 28 May 2016 - 05:31 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Really the gist of it. One group is putting ore effort in to winning and as such putting the threshold for winning out or reach for people who put in less effort. An excuse is made to try and punish or drive out top performers to lower the bar and make being a winner easier.

You want more/better players on your team? Train existing members up, create a more enticing environment for newer, better players.

[Armando]

MischiefSC, on 28 May 2016 - 05:27 PM, said:

You want more/better players on your team? Train existing members up, create a more enticing environment for newer, better players.

You are talking about forum warriors....taking personal responsibility....for their gaming experience. Good luck with that.

[ccrider]

If a unit is able to recruit hundreds of players and keep them invested in a game i enjoy; therefore prolonging it's life, that's a good thing. Period.

Edited by ccrider, 28 May 2016 - 06:05 PM.

[AnTi90d]

This thread quickly deteriorated into an echo chamber of mercenaries circle-jerking eachother.

ccrider, on 28 May 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

there's a solution and it's free; download ts, group and coordinate. It's that simple.

..and they all give the same damn solution that might have worked in the game, in the past, but isn't applicable today.

Kuritan coms are dead (aside for a four hour window on Friday and Saturday nights,) and I'd lay money on other houses being deserted wastelands, as well. There are no units to join, only empty TS subgroups where units used to be. This isn't a solution. A new player has a zero percent chance of finding any community to play the game with. It's join Invasion, solo, or don't even bother playing the damn game.. all the while mercenaries keep waving around some imaginary magic wand solution of, "Download Teamspeak and you'll find people to play with." That's a lie; It's more like, "Download Teamspeak and sit in an abandoned server for up to eight hours while you solo drop. Repeat, ad nauseum, until you give up."

I'm on TS six to eight hours, every day, and I might.. might.. find a group to play with.. once or twice a week.. and, even then, it's only good for about one or two god damn matches until they logoff.

There is no community. There is no "training." There is no camaraderie. There is only a nearly abandoned game mode with nearly abandoned Teamspeak servers and a plethora of people on the forums offering up solutions that aren't applicable, today.