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Why Are So Many Complaining About "op Kodiak"?


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#561 Deathlike

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 09:28 AM

View PostAphexTwin11, on 23 December 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

The KDK-3 is not OP.

It's a minority of 5-6 forum warriors constantly calling for everything under the sun to get nerfed - and are EXTREMELY vocal about doing so.

0/10 would not OP again


Right... that's why they are still #1 picked mechs in league dropdecks post-nerf.

Yep, nothing to see there.

#562 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 10:18 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 23 December 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

Right... that's why they are still #1 picked mechs in league dropdecks post-nerf.

Yep, nothing to see there.


Considering mechs like Cyclops and Marauder-IIC aren't even allowed in leagues yet ...

The question is what teams would have taken into their dropdecks if they weren't limited by class restrictions. Something tells me that tonnage based dropdecks like RHoD used to have would have seen little-to-no assault mechs to begin with.

Given the Gauss+PPC is coming back full force and considering Marauder-IIC can do Gauss+PPC same way a KDK does with far better frontal profile I'd predict nothing but Marauders-IIC in league dropdecks as soon as they are avaliable for use.

Apart from that there is the usual inertia among non-top-tier competitive teams in regards to what mechs they use due to several factors I'm sure you are aware of.

#563 Deathlike

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 11:59 AM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 23 December 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:


Considering mechs like Cyclops and Marauder-IIC aren't even allowed in leagues yet ...

The question is what teams would have taken into their dropdecks if they weren't limited by class restrictions. Something tells me that tonnage based dropdecks like RHoD used to have would have seen little-to-no assault mechs to begin with.

Given the Gauss+PPC is coming back full force and considering Marauder-IIC can do Gauss+PPC same way a KDK does with far better frontal profile I'd predict nothing but Marauders-IIC in league dropdecks as soon as they are avaliable for use.

Apart from that there is the usual inertia among non-top-tier competitive teams in regards to what mechs they use due to several factors I'm sure you are aware of.


Cyclops aren't a thing though. Marauder IICs is another matter, but most leagues don't allow for hero variants for use (the 2 CERPPC+2Gauss on the Scorch would not be a factor usually). That's besides the point that they don't usually allow them unless they are out for C-bills.

For tonnage based dropdecks though, it's easier to load up on Heavies (Timberwolf, Summoner, Night Gyr, Hellbringer, etc.) and offset a few for Lights and Mediums as needed. You can see some semblance of that in FP (people complaining about tonnage imbalances have never tried to load up on 3 Clan Heavies with an Arctic Cheetah - pretty easy to do).

#564 Y E O N N E

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 12:10 PM

MRBC not allowing heroes is new for MRBC8. MRBC7 saw extensive use of the Black Widow and Dragon Slayer. I remember taking issue with them allowing Heroes because it was in direct conflict with their stance on not allowing 'Mechs that otherwise were not available for C-bill purchase.

Also, the Cyclops will never be a thing because the range on the variant in question is 297 meters, and you need an XL to capitalize on the hard-points well enough to out-gun the Atlas S or Spirit Bear, both of which can lop-off a side torso in two shots. And this ignores the reality where brawling is all but dead due to map design. It gets shot to pieces before it can engage.

#565 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 12:27 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 23 December 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

MRBC not allowing heroes is new for MRBC8. MRBC7 saw extensive use of the Black Widow and Dragon Slayer. I remember taking issue with them allowing Heroes because it was in direct conflict with their stance on not allowing 'Mechs that otherwise were not available for C-bill purchase.

Also, the Cyclops will never be a thing because the range on the variant in question is 297 meters, and you need an XL to capitalize on the hard-points well enough to out-gun the Atlas S or Spirit Bear, both of which can lop-off a side torso in two shots. And this ignores the reality where brawling is all but dead due to map design. It gets shot to pieces before it can engage.


View PostDeathlike, on 23 December 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

Cyclops aren't a thing though.


Cyclops as in Sleipnir could actually hold its own vs a KDK-3 well enough. Cyclops as in SRM boat certainly isn't a thing to be used all the time, but is a unique choice for a fast brawl deck requiring an assault. XL isn't an issue as turning and accel/deccel is insane on that thing. SpiritBear could have been an adequate response but clan SRMs are utter garbage and 60 degree torso turn really hurts it far far more than KDK-3. As you've properly noted the no-hero rule limits the pool, but this has nothing to do with these mechs not being viable in comparison.

All-in-all, mechs like Highlanders-IIC, Maulers etc. are a strong consideration as a substitution for Kodiaks already. Needless to say Marauder-IICs feel like a direct upgrade at this point.

View PostDeathlike, on 23 December 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

Marauder IICs is another matter, but most leagues don't allow for hero variants for use (the 2 CERPPC+2Gauss on the Scorch would not be a factor usually). That's besides the point that they don't usually allow them unless they are out for C-bills.


You can build 2xGauss+2ERPPCs+JJs on IIC-C, and that mech is actually one-sided, i.e. better. It does sacrifice speed but Gauss+ERPPC thing rarely requires high speeds. As for not allowing hero mechs that is a new rule, heros were in fact usually allowed.

#566 Deathlike

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 12:39 PM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 23 December 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

You can build 2xGauss+2ERPPCs+JJs on IIC-C, and that mech is actually one-sided, i.e. better. It does sacrifice speed but Gauss+ERPPC thing rarely requires high speeds. As for not allowing hero mechs that is a new rule, heros were in fact usually allowed.


At that point, a Night Gyr is a better option. You have to run a STD engine to run dual Gauss in the side torso.

#567 Y E O N N E

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 12:56 PM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 23 December 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

Cyclops as in Sleipnir could actually hold its own vs a KDK-3 well enough. Cyclops as in SRM boat certainly isn't a thing to be used all the time, but is a unique choice for a fast brawl deck requiring an assault. XL isn't an issue as turning and accel/deccel is insane on that thing. SpiritBear could have been an adequate response but clan SRMs are utter garbage and 60 degree torso turn really hurts it far far more than KDK-3. As you've properly noted the no-hero rule limits the pool, but this has nothing to do with these mechs not being viable in comparison.


Which payload are you implying for the Slepnir? If Gauss, Night Gyr is the better option. If UAC/5+AC/5, Black Widow and Night Gyr are both better options. If your 90 ton assault is only doing as well against the KDK-3 as 70-75 Heavies, I would say your assault isn't doing well enough to be considered.

As for the XL on the brawl Cyclops, I don't agree. If old Frozen City were still a thing, maybe, but it isn't. Every remaining map most conducive to brawl also has exceedingly strong power-position options. That's Bog, Canyon, Caustic, and Mining. The fastest a Cyclops can run is 77 kph, and given that the enemy is looking out for your brawl assaults, it will not survive the focus fire. The Spirit Bear, even with its reduced twist and more dispersed payload, can get up into the enemy's grille at 90 kph and plant larger total damage onto one section.

If isXL assaults were brawl-worthy, it would have already been done on the BLR-1S, which gets a comparable alpha to the Cyclops using MPL and ASRM6 while running cold, and can run even faster.

#568 pattonesque

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 01:33 PM

reading the first pages of this thread is incredibly funny

"hmmm, 100T clan assault with four high-mounted ballistics, nope, not OP at all"

it was the best mech in the game from the moment they announced it

#569 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 01:52 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 23 December 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

Which payload are you implying for the Slepnir? If Gauss, Night Gyr is the better option. If UAC/5+AC/5, Black Widow and Night Gyr are both better options. If your 90 ton assault is only doing as well against the KDK-3 as 70-75 Heavies, I would say your assault isn't doing well enough to be considered.


Eh ... Sleipnir with Gauss? UAC5s of course for pinpoint IS ballistic DPS vs your regular UAC10s+UAC5s KDK-3. NightGyrs/Warhammers are heavies. And Sleipnir has both Std. engine and IS ballistics unlike both of those on top of more armor and structure.

View PostYeonne Greene, on 23 December 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

As for the XL on the brawl Cyclops, I don't agree. If old Frozen City were still a thing, maybe, but it isn't. Every remaining map most conducive to brawl also has exceedingly strong power-position options. That's Bog, Canyon, Caustic, and Mining. The fastest a Cyclops can run is 77 kph, and given that the enemy is looking out for your brawl assaults, it will not survive the focus fire. The Spirit Bear, even with its reduced twist and more dispersed payload, can get up into the enemy's grille at 90 kph and plant larger total damage onto one section.


Sorry but all this is quite lame. First of all "power positions" do not matter in conquest mode as you can control caps and force the enemy to come at you. On maps like Bog, HPG, Mining you can force engagements at ~300m range fast enough for your entire brawl deck to get in range before it loses too much armor. Plus, when you have medium and heavy meatshields pushing alongside you you can get those relatively fast assaults into the fray ez enough.

Second is that nobody is "looking out for brawl assaults" specifically, the entire point is to either rush right in on the first minute or force the enemy to come into a brawl by holding caps.

In comp nothing survives focused fire, SB losing its MASC ST will crawl and be useless all the same, plus even if it does get in range clan SRMs suck azz compared to IS.

View PostYeonne Greene, on 23 December 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

If isXL assaults were brawl-worthy, it would have already been done on the BLR-1S, which gets a comparable alpha to the Cyclops using MPL and ASRM6 while running cold, and can run even faster.


You don't brawl with MPLs. Thats just not a thing since uberquirked 7MPL Thunderbolt nerf. BLR-1S doesn't even compare due to having no agility quirks at all.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 23 December 2016 - 01:53 PM.


#570 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 01:57 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 23 December 2016 - 12:39 PM, said:

At that point, a Night Gyr is a better option. You have to run a STD engine to run dual Gauss in the side torso.


Night Gyr isn't a better option because its not an option at all. Its a heavy. Plus, even if you forget about that its still an assault-sized heavy with enormous frontal profile and weapons on both sides of the mech.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 23 December 2016 - 02:02 PM.


#571 Deathlike

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 02:37 PM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 23 December 2016 - 01:57 PM, said:

Night Gyr isn't a better option because its not an option at all. Its a heavy. Plus, even if you forget about that its still an assault-sized heavy with enormous frontal profile and weapons on both sides of the mech.


For the purposes of dropdecks and tonnage, it's a better option.

I don't feel that the frontal profile is to its detriment (most of it is high mounts), but the jury is out on the comp play options. I think people will be taking a serious look at it at the very least.

#572 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 02:43 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 23 December 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

For the purposes of dropdecks and tonnage, it's a better option.

I don't feel that the frontal profile is to its detriment (most of it is high mounts), but the jury is out on the comp play options. I think people will be taking a serious look at it at the very least.


Nope. In fact it will be used for the same reason that it won't be an option compared to Marauder-IIC. Right now dropdecks are class restricted. And among heavies there is no other clanner with same amount of tonnage for weaponry (Orion-IIC doesn't really count). The fact that you can build all the loadouts on it and have JJs only further speak in its favor. As for assaults, unless Marauder gets nerfed soon it'll most likely be the go-to assault.

Kodiak will still have its niche, but unlike the MWOWC that used a half-year old client version it won't be a go-to assault anymore.

#573 Y E O N N E

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 02:55 PM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 23 December 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:


Eh ... Sleipnir with Gauss? UAC5s of course for pinpoint IS ballistic DPS vs your regular UAC10s+UAC5s KDK-3. NightGyrs/Warhammers are heavies. And Sleipnir has both Std. engine and IS ballistics unlike both of those on top of more armor and structure.


That's the problem. They are heavies and they can do the same thing without taking up a slot that could be used for more powerful 'Mechs like the Kodiak 3 or MAD-IIC.

Quote

Sorry but all this is quite lame. First of all "power positions" do not matter in conquest mode as you can control caps and force the enemy to come at you. On maps like Bog, HPG, Mining you can force engagements at ~300m range fast enough for your entire brawl deck to get in range before it loses too much armor. Plus, when you have medium and heavy meatshields pushing alongside you you can get those relatively fast assaults into the fray ez enough.


Not true. MWOWC was entirely about power positioning and it was conquest all day, every day.

Mining, you place your heavy firepower back and pull the enemy into it. It's not a brawl so much as an execution box with bait to hold the enemy there, and if the enemy rushes the guns you can roll back into them.

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Second is that nobody is "looking out for brawl assaults" specifically, the entire point is to either rush right in on the first minute or force the enemy to come into a brawl by holding caps.


Did you never play Frozen City competitively before it changed? There absolutely was specific looking out for the inevitable Atlas S, just like there absolutely is specific attention paid to where the Kodiaks are today.

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In comp nothing survives focused fire, SB losing its MASC ST will crawl and be useless all the same, plus even if it does get in range clan SRMs suck azz compared to IS.


You begin to see the entire reason why a brawl Cyclops is not viable at all then, yes?

Quote

You don't brawl with MPLs. Thats just not a thing since uberquirked 7MPL Thunderbolt nerf. BLR-1S doesn't even compare due to having no agility quirks at all.


You do when they have the duration of a Small Pulse laser and when the total build doesn't run any hotter than other alternatives. There is zero face-staring. And it turns at least as well as an Atlas S does, though I would say better going by in-game feel.

The agility doesn't really change things, though. It's not in the turn-fighting potion of the brawl where these XL assaults lose, it's in the approach.

#574 Deathlike

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 03:06 PM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 23 December 2016 - 02:43 PM, said:


Nope. In fact it will be used for the same reason that it won't be an option compared to Marauder-IIC. Right now dropdecks are class restricted. And among heavies there is no other clanner with same amount of tonnage for weaponry (Orion-IIC doesn't really count). The fact that you can build all the loadouts on it and have JJs only further speak in its favor. As for assaults, unless Marauder gets nerfed soon it'll most likely be the go-to assault.

Kodiak will still have its niche, but unlike the MWOWC that used a half-year old client version it won't be a go-to assault anymore.


Kodiaks are still the goto Assault. I haven't seen any reason (even post nerf) to see it differently as of yet.

If MRBC was able to use the Marauder-IIC in its quad-Assault dropdeck, it would at least get a look as the #3 or #4 option (KDK-3 being the one doubled up again).

Edited by Deathlike, 23 December 2016 - 03:11 PM.


#575 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 05:23 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 23 December 2016 - 02:55 PM, said:

That's the problem. They are heavies and they can do the same thing without taking up a slot that could be used for more powerful 'Mechs like the Kodiak 3 or MAD-IIC.


You aren't making any sense. There are set number of heavy slots and set number of assault slots. Your heavies aren't taking nor freeing slots of anything else. Even if we consider tonnage based drops then nobody is gonna take your heavies if there are "more powerful mechs", and if they do then the supposed power of those "more powerful mechs" is very much in question.


View PostYeonne Greene, on 23 December 2016 - 02:55 PM, said:

Not true. MWOWC was entirely about power positioning and it was conquest all day, every day.

Mining, you place your heavy firepower back and pull the enemy into it. It's not a brawl so much as an execution box with bait to hold the enemy there, and if the enemy rushes the guns you can roll back into them.


I'm not even going to bother debating this. Different teams use different strategies, too various to consider them all. I'm only going to remind you that the EU finalist EON lost their only preliminary match to a team that went full brawl pretty much straight into them from the start.

View PostYeonne Greene, on 23 December 2016 - 02:55 PM, said:

Did you never play Frozen City competitively before it changed? There absolutely was specific looking out for the inevitable Atlas S, just like there absolutely is specific attention paid to where the Kodiaks are today.


I did, and for every Atlas that I saw there I've also seen a Direwolf with Gauss+PPC. Once again, unless you know exactly what dropdeck your opponent brings (which you don't), you aren't going to "look out for brawl assaults" like you claim. You are going to look for the "main group", and on some maps there is a good chance you'll happen to find the "main group" that happens to be a full brawl team when its already 300m away from you.

Nobody pays specific attention to Kodiaks, this attention is focused on said main group which usually includes assaults, be it Atlases, Kodiaks or whatever.

View PostYeonne Greene, on 23 December 2016 - 02:55 PM, said:

You begin to see the entire reason why a brawl Cyclops is not viable at all then, yes?


It is plenty viable. If you fail to see different options and always drop with Kodiaks no matter what its your loss.

View PostYeonne Greene, on 23 December 2016 - 02:55 PM, said:

The agility doesn't really change things, though. It's not in the turn-fighting potion of the brawl where these XL assaults lose, it's in the approach.


That is why these SRM XL assaults are viable when you can make an approach without losing armor. That goes for any brawler mech. Same goes for Gauss+PPCs that are only viable when you get a ranged poke war. Same goes for DPS mechs that are only viable when you can guarantee them extended periods of time to make use of that high sustained DPS.

Everything is situational, and unlike PUGs comp actually provides a far greater variety of situations and strategies.

#576 Y E O N N E

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 11:00 AM

View PostPhoenixFire55, on 24 December 2016 - 05:23 AM, said:

You aren't making any sense. There are set number of heavy slots and set number of assault slots. Your heavies aren't taking nor freeing slots of anything else. Even if we consider tonnage based drops then nobody is gonna take your heavies if there are "more powerful mechs", and if they do then the supposed power of those "more powerful mechs" is very much in question.


I am making perfect sense. There are a set number of each class, yes. I am not going to waste one of my assault slots on a 'Mech that is no better than the 'Mechs that I use in the Heavy slots when I have options available that are better measurably better than that.

Quote

I'm not even going to bother debating this. Different teams use different strategies, too various to consider them all. I'm only going to remind you that the EU finalist EON lost their only preliminary match to a team that went full brawl pretty much straight into them from the start.


And then they adjusted and brawl was dead. EmP destroyed the brawl every time, too. OCE was never going to win the finals precisely because they were so brawl-focused and brawl is an inferior strategy to power positioning on every map. And really, what this section is a reply to has little to do with strategy, everything to do with target prioritization. Which is universal. So...missing the point?

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I did, and for every Atlas that I saw there I've also seen a Direwolf with Gauss+PPC. Once again, unless you know exactly what dropdeck your opponent brings (which you don't), you aren't going to "look out for brawl assaults" like you claim. You are going to look for the "main group", and on some maps there is a good chance you'll happen to find the "main group" that happens to be a full brawl team when its already 300m away from you.

Nobody pays specific attention to Kodiaks, this attention is focused on said main group which usually includes assaults, be it Atlases, Kodiaks or whatever.


And which targets do you prioritize in that main group whenever the opportunity presents itself?

Since Old Frozen City disappeared I've never seen contact occur at brawl ranges that wasn't a result of failure to scout the enemy, which is pretty inexcusable, or MRBC Drop 1. Even on Old Frozen City, teams were scouted before contact almost every time.

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It is plenty viable. If you fail to see different options and always drop with Kodiaks no matter what its your loss.


Simply saying it doesn't make it so.

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That is why these SRM XL assaults are viable when you can make an approach without losing armor. That goes for any brawler mech. Same goes for Gauss+PPCs that are only viable when you get a ranged poke war. Same goes for DPS mechs that are only viable when you can guarantee them extended periods of time to make use of that high sustained DPS.

Everything is situational, and unlike PUGs comp actually provides a far greater variety of situations and strategies.


But you can't make an approach without losing armor without relying on your opponent being idiots. It's too situational. Getting scouted immediately ruins its utility.

A brawl, by definition, has extended periods of time to sustain high DPS. Which is why the dakka Kodiak is taken even when a team decides it wants to do a brawl strat; it can cover the approach and its DPS is high enough that it flattens targets up-close, too. The double Gauss/ER PPC and quad gauss versions aren't that far off, either, if at all, when you count the pinpoint and range qualities together. They just require you to be both accurate and precise.

#577 Chi Guy 1

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 09:16 PM

View PostPhoolan Devi, on 23 December 2016 - 04:55 AM, said:


What you seem not to get is, that in order to compete, everybody must have the "same" gear!

What you are arguing for is that it is perfectly ok to have to attend a formula one race with a formula renault car. That is ridiculous!

I actually laugh at those "comp" players and teams who are only going for the meta and think they are good. For me, they are not!


Good response. However I disagree with the "formula one" analogy. This is a war not a race. The goal is not to be first. The goal is to be the last team standing (except for conquest). Nothing prevents anyone from choosing any mech in the line. If the goal is to make them all perform the same, as is the case with "formula one", then why bother making them different in in way besides the paint job, as is the case with "formua one"??? Again, your response is appreciated. I don't have to agree with something to see the value in it.

That said, my core points have yet to be addressed, which is the scam that is MWO. MWO sells "new" mechs and bundles. They allowed the Kodiak to perform well, made a ton of sells, and then suddenly realized it was "over performing" AFTER making money hand over fist on the originally released specs. You mean it did not over-perform during beta testing MWO? Hmmmm. It took a few months of selling the product to claim it worked too well???

So, either MWO has no clue regarding beta testing before official release OR MWO is a scam artist. Which is it, incompetence or corruption? They released the Kodiak knowing full well they would be degrading the performance after profiting from the "over performing" version.

MWO scammed me out of my c-bills, experience points, and real USD and then degraded all five products I purchased. Not to mention the investment of time and mc to Master the line.

In the end I don't care that much anymore. My Premium time that I purchased after being conned into the Kodiaks has ended. The same maps keep regurgitating. The opponents are dropped in the same location and battle in the same grid area every time. It reminds me of the movie Groundhog Day with Bill Murray. He eventually began to kill himself in a variety of ways with hopes of the day not repeating. The only diversity MWO had to offer was mech performance. Even that has been taken away since we all must perform the same. I'll still play from time-to-time but nowhere near as often as I once did. I'll continue to missile boat the hell out of the opposing team when given the chance.

Prior to the rippoff patch, I fought with three different Kodiaks and two different Timberwolfs. Now I stick mainly to the Spirit Bear as a missile boat just to rack up points. Its no longer about the experience after they patched out the performance so I just rack up points and c-bills. From time-to-time I'll switch to K-1 and K-3 just to break a small piece of the monotony.

In today's world, society wants to make everyone the same. We are actually very different and are strong in our own unique way. Celebrating the differences and bringing people with different strengths together is what makes us stronger versus pretending everyone has to be the same to make life fair. This is also true in MWO. Making every mech the same is as exciting as fighting on the same map in the same grid match after match after match.

I give MWO credit for allowing me make negative observations about their practices on their forum. At least they have not squelched criticism.

#578 RestosIII

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 09:25 PM

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It's obvious that PGI isn't going to mess with the ballistic hardpoints on the damn thing, and instead will just try to find some other excuse of a way to lower it and the other Kodiaks as casualties. Do I dislike the KD-3 Pokebear because it's still a menace? Oh boy I do. But I've given up on trying to have PGI fix it.

#579 Novakaine

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 09:43 PM

It's all driven by sales.
Sadly.

#580 The Unstoppable Puggernaut

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 01:32 AM

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