1017 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Prosperity Park, on 13 June 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

I am not forgetting heat. DPS is a term that is function of facetime. The facetime-applicable DPS for quad UAC10 is higher than the mixed load with UAC5 because you have to deal much more than 200 damage before heat is an issue, and the quad 10s will out DPS the mixed build up to this threshold.

200 damage is a very low point for a dakka mech to be seeing heat issues, since they tend to favor extended facetime. That's their entire role, to wreck things that are staying within LOS of you for extended periods. Which is why burst DPS (which is what you are talking about, not sustained DPS) is silly for a dakka mech. In that regard, the quad 10 Kodiak behaves more like the Black Knight and old Meta Whale, shoot off a quick burst of 80 damage twice, get in cover to cooldown and repeat. If you are worried about facetime in a dakka mech then you are doing it wrong.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 13 June 2016 - 10:57 AM.

[1453 R]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

pretty sure just your inline speed/accel. but I don't use it near enough to claim expertise with it. It sure lets you back up fast. In fact, I still forget to use it most times on my Scat. file:///C:\Users\MATT_R~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png

M.A.S.C. increases top speed, acceleration/deceleration, and turnspeed. Everything but twist speed, as M.A.S.C. is a 'leg' modifier. Anything that derives from your feeties, your M.A.S.C. boosts.

The turnspeed boosts are less noticeable, and tend to be balanced out by the increased top speed widening your turning radius anyways - it's basically enough to keep your turning radius the same with M.A.S.C. engaged. The real killer is effectively instant 0-to-max in either direction with proper use of M.A.S.C. I do have a natural-feeling keybind for M.A.S.C., and while I haven't programmed myself to really use it instinctively yet (not enough stick time in the Executioners, given how...un-good...Executioners are), it's a game-changer on giant fatbros on those games where I'm really on-point with it.

Anyways.

Spent some time today catching up on the six pages I missed, and...jeez. What are we all even doing?

Mischief: Heroes being essential purchases is bad, yes...but Heroes being strictly wastes of money because they're kept deliberately sh!t-tier 'mediocre' is also bad. Sidegrade doesn't mean upgrade, no, but it also shouldn't mean downgrade. I don't want to get into the specific issues of the Oxide here, but I might also point at the Loup de Guerre as an example of "How to do Hero 'Mechs the Other Bad Way." I used to love my Trebuchets, bought the Hero to round out the collection. Regretted it within a week, still do, because it is categorically useless. Cool paint does not make up for the 'Mech being empirically bad.

The Spirit Bear is a unique configuration with a (currently) unique playstyle, given that the only other M.A.S.C.-equipped assault 'Mech is a Pillar of Failure with knee-mounted weapons it is almost entirely incapable of bringing to bear in a reasonable manner. Should it be better than other Kodiaks? No - though 'better' will be hard to measure as it's built so differently from the rest. Should there be other 'Mechs with similar playstyles? Probably, though the whole point behind Heroes is that they're supposed to be unique. But intentionally sabotaging Hero 'Mechs is also not good.

At this point, we just need a different mechanic behind 'Hero' 'Mechs. I'm almost to the point where some sort of Legendary Journey™, to coin a term from another game, to earn a 'straight' version of the Hero chassis would be an idea. Master three Kodiaks (or all Kodiaks, or all whatevers), then complete a series of challenges, and earn one UND PRECISELY VUN normal Rookie Green freebie version of the Hero chassis. Minus the camouflage, minus the Billz Boozt, but mechanically identical. Do not make it easy, to not make it repeatable, and do not make a C-bill purchasable equivalent...but if that's what needs to happen for Piranha to have a license to make the Heroes not schitte, then do it up.

Because I can tell you from personal (desperate experimenting) experience with the Executioner - no amount of quirkage will make the KDK-4's missile hardpoints more than a curiosity. Even with the hardpoints concentrated together, 2M is just a nonstarter on an assault-level platform. Reworking one of the regular C-bill Kodiaks as another sort of mobile brawler would be a stopgap, we both know that. The Spirit Bear was laid out from the very start to be kinda the definitive Assault Striker. It'd be great if other 'Mechs known for that role (VICTORS) would be worked up a bit to not suck so horribly at it...but until they do, we have this one 'Mech that does the job. I really don't feel like wrecking the Spirit Bear is conducive towards the goal of a varied game; if it's not currently harmful to the goal of a balanced game, then...well, if it ain't broke and all that.

On the other subject(s):

Bish...mebbe calm down a bit, man. You know I'm behind you on the don't-kill-the-chassis thing, but after taking a break from it myself and catching up...well, you're starting to foam at the mouth just a little bit. I get it, I do. I don't want them defecating all over the chassis either, and I miss my Victors as much as everybody else misses their Highlanders. We're all entrenched and beating our heads against the pillbox walls now, though. That's not getting anybody anywhere.

If the KDK-3 is a problem, and if the problem with the KDK-3 is its pug-farming killtrocity potential in quickplay with quad heavy dakka…well, then the folks doing most of the complaining about the KDK-3 from a balance perspective won’t stop complaining until the KDK-3 can no longer wreck them with massed autocannons. For a lot of those folks, that’s a matter of Gitting Gudder. It may, however, also simply be that quad Quack/10s really are too good, on a chassis not as cripplingly kludgy as the Whale. The real kicker for that conversation will probably be the Night Gyr, in a few months. It has almost the same murder potential as the KDK-3, and most of it not in knee-mounted Executioner hardpoints, either (presumably). If the Gyr is also a crushing, Pug-polarizing Force Of Destruction, then we should really start looking at Quack mechanics in general.

I don’t know if stripping its quirks is the right method to fix the KDK-3. I get that it couldn’t hurt (in a very weird sense of how that phrase is normally used) as the KDK-3 is the ‘firepower’ variant of the ‘Mech as compared to the…frankly everything else. Yes, it doesn’t really warrant the extra mobility, though I hesitate to want to inflict Whale-ness on anything. But…well, as I’ve said before, while arguing “but Piranha will hammer it into scrap!” is not a rational argument, it is a reasonable one.

Mischief, you said you’d be just as against the KDK-3 receiving a significant RedQuirk overhaul as you are with it retaining its current quirk set intact. Are you – and McGral, and Gas, and all the other comp folks currently trying to get the KDK-3 adjusted – ready to back that up? Ready to spend forty-three more pages campaigning to get the red off? Because I almost guarantee you that Derek’s off looking for an answer from Piranha on this issue, and him trying to force their hand that way – however politely he does so, and however good his intentions are – is not going to put them in a good mood, and if the KDK-3 is “The ‘Mech That Single-Handedly Won the 2016 World Championships”, I can almost guarantee you that Piranha will respond by attempting to ensure that the Kodiak will never again be the ‘Mech that wins any Championship, pretty much ever.

So unless you’re ready to go to bat the other direction, and/or to lose your Kodiaks…well, be careful, I suppose? By all means, champion the cause you think is correct – but much like the current election campaigns, be prepared for what the results of that championing might be.

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 13 June 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

Because I can tell you from personal (desperate experimenting) experience with the Executioner - no amount of quirkage will make the KDK-4's missile hardpoints more than a curiosity. Even with the hardpoints concentrated together, 2M is just a nonstarter on an assault-level platform. Reworking one of the regular C-bill Kodiaks as another sort of mobile brawler would be a stopgap, we both know that. The Spirit Bear was laid out from the very start to be kinda the definitive Assault Striker. It'd be great if other 'Mechs known for that role (VICTORS) would be worked up a bit to not suck so horribly at it...but until they do, we have this one 'Mech that does the job. I really don't feel like wrecking the Spirit Bear is conducive towards the goal of a varied game; if it's not currently harmful to the goal of a balanced game, then...well, if it ain't broke and all that.

just would note that I find the missiles pretty essential on my KDK4 build.

It really depends how you view them. I find they back up my 2xUAC10 very nicely, and when combined with my SPLs are quite useful at chasing off annoying Lights.

Now the KDK2? That's a true WTF? 1B and 1M...... because Assault Class Hoverjets. *facepalm*

[1453 R]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2016 - 11:49 AM, said:

just would note that I find the missiles pretty essential on my KDK4 build.

It really depends how you view them. I find they back up my 2xUAC10 very nicely, and when combined with my SPLs are quite useful at chasing off annoying Lights.

Now the KDK2? That's a true WTF? 1B and 1M...... because Assault Class Hoverjets. *facepalm*

That's the issue, I suppose. 2M is never going to be anything but a sidearm on an assault platform, regardless of quirks. Even Old Huginn-level WTFery wouldn't really turn two SRM launchers into anything but a backup weapon on a 100-ton machine, and nothing in the game should ever warrant Old Huginn quirks. The Executioner's 2M arm is almost entirely pointless save for the incredible rarity of having a working elbow, and frankly that elbow tends to be more useful than the 2M the elbow comes with.

Your Stink Bear may really like its SRMs, but you get your work done with those autocannons, not the missiles. The Spirit Bear doesn't have that option (nor does the Executioner, unfortunately...). The Spirit Bear relies primarily on SRMs, and SRMs tend to require a certain base level of mobility - a mobility floor, if you will - to be effective. There's a reason nobody at all is scared of SRM Stalkers.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 13 June 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

Your Stink Bear may really like its SRMs, but you get your work done with those autocannons, not the missiles.

Not quite true. Maybe for Bishop's particular build, but the AS7-S copycat build gets most of its work done with the missiles, just like the AS7-S. The best brawlers pretty much require SRMs to be effective (and of course the speed to make good use of them).

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 13 June 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

That's the issue, I suppose. 2M is never going to be anything but a sidearm on an assault platform, regardless of quirks. Even Old Huginn-level WTFery wouldn't really turn two SRM launchers into anything but a backup weapon on a 100-ton machine, and nothing in the game should ever warrant Old Huginn quirks. The Executioner's 2M arm is almost entirely pointless save for the incredible rarity of having a working elbow, and frankly that elbow tends to be more useful than the 2M the elbow comes with.

Your Stink Bear may really like its SRMs, but you get your work done with those autocannons, not the missiles. The Spirit Bear doesn't have that option (nor does the Executioner, unfortunately...). The Spirit Bear relies primarily on SRMs, and SRMs tend to require a certain base level of mobility - a mobility floor, if you will - to be effective. There's a reason nobody at all is scared of SRM Stalkers.

Thing is those UAC10s are not the best against fast targets, spread dmg too easily. Thus, they add dmg in furballs, but they really do serve their purpose. Not specialized enough for Comp play by any means, but remember your average Pug has to deal with all kinds of chaos and variables.

For team Play, I'd use the KDK3 or SB, depending on role in the team. But for PUGing in QP? I find the very lack of specialty shines.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 June 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

Not quite true. Maybe for Bishop's particular build, but the AS7-S copycat build gets most of its work done with the missiles, just like the AS7-S. The best brawlers pretty much require SRMs to be effective (and of course the speed to make good use of them).

Spirit Bear sans SRMs is in a world of hurt.

[1453 R]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 June 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

Not quite true. Maybe for Bishop's particular build, but the AS7-S copycat build gets most of its work done with the missiles, just like the AS7-S. The best brawlers pretty much require SRMs to be effective (and of course the speed to make good use of them).

I didn't know there was an AS7 copycat on the KDK-4, which was what I was specifically addressing If there is, I'd honestly like to see it. Don't have any Reinforcements for my KDK pack, but I like to try and keep on top of fun builds.

But yeah - the Spirit Bear, specifically, relies on its SRMs with occasional backup/emphasis from the autocannon. I do lasers instead of flamers because UAVs are a thing (and I can never rely on my fellow Puggernauts to bother keeping an eye out for those things) and because when you're desperate every last bit of damage helps...but they never get fired unless there's a really cotton-pickin' good reason. Like UAVs, or inclines, or oh-dear-God-please-die-before-your-weapons-finish-cycling...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 13 June 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

I didn't know there was an AS7 copycat on the KDK-4, which was what I was specifically addressing

1453 R, on 13 June 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

Your Stink Bear may really like its SRMs

Thought you were talking about the Spirit Bear with a weird nickname.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 13 June 2016 - 12:47 PM.

[1453 R]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 June 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

Thought you were talking about the Spirit Bear with a weird nickname.

No biggie. Bishop calls that fit his Stink Bear; the name tickles me so I use it too. Sprint Bear, Stink Bear, Stare Bear/Super Bear*, Suck Bear 1 and Suck Bear 5.

Edited by 1453 R, 13 June 2016 - 12:54 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 13 June 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

Thought you were talking about the Spirit Bear with a weird nickname.

StinkBear is the KDK4, because it has "Stinkfists", like Orion VAs, or such. IDK, old nickname. And I like it for my KDK4.

I call the KDK3 UAC build a StareBear because well, to really leverage that damage, most people stare. PeekBear is what I call the Gauss/PPC KDK3 since it's a peektart build, etc.

I'm weird like that.

[Roadkill]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2016 - 01:12 PM, said:

I call the KDK3 UAC build a StareBear

While StareBear is appropriate, I prefer Duck Bear.

Because QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK.

Also, PokeBear over PeekBear because it pokes its head up to shoot and gottacatchemall.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Roadkill, on 13 June 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

While StareBear is appropriate, I prefer Duck Bear.

Because QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK.

Also, PokeBear over PeekBear because it pokes its head up to shoot and gottacatchemall.

That would be a Pokébear so it gets pronounced properly

[Roadkill]

Afuldan McKronik, on 13 June 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

That would be a Pokébear so it gets pronounced properly

You and your fancy letters.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roadkill, on 13 June 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

While StareBear is appropriate, I prefer Duck Bear.

Because QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK.

Also, PokeBear over PeekBear because it pokes its head up to shoot and gottacatchemall.

PokeBear works pretty good but DuckBear just don't roll off the tongue.

Roadkill, on 13 June 2016 - 03:18 PM, said:

You and your fancy letters.

I can never get my keyboard to do that.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

PokeBear works pretty good but DuckBear just don't roll off the tongue.


I can never get my keyboard to do that.

I am on my mobile so its as easy as holding down the key untill all the different pronounciation marks show up. I don't know how to do it with a keyboard either.

[Bishop Steiner]

Afuldan McKronik, on 13 June 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

I am on my mobile so its as easy as holding down the key untill all the different pronounciation marks show up. I don't know how to do it with a keyboard either.

Cheater!

[Afuldan McKronik]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 June 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

Cheater!

Eh, I compensate by using a 3" wide virtual keyboard. Its like using macros while using a joystick to shoot in game. It evens itself out.

[Bishop Steiner]

Just a curiosity question:

IDK about FW and the tournament, but in QP, for most of the last week? 1-2 KD on avg per drop.
Of those, KDK3 and KDK2 seem the most common with a smattering of 1 and 5s. Virtually no SBs to be seen, and the 5...while I'm sure there has been some, I honestly can't recall seeing one.

Most surprising thing is the number of KDK2. IDK, maybe I'm thinking too linear, but I don't realyl see the appeal. Even with max JJ, it's gets up and jumps SLOOOOOOOW. And it's hardpoints are hands down the weakest.

KDK3 is definitely strong, though I see a Loooooot of bad scores, even with the dread StareBear, and TBH very very little of the 1000 damage matches anymore. But the 3 is a very strong performer overall, on par wit the Wubshees and MALs overall, and maybe a bit stronger.

But I'm definitely not seeing 3s running around as "Win Buttons" on any of the matches I drop in. And as a tier 2, I see plenty of Tier 1 matches. If anything, the most obnoxious mechs I'm seeing are for sure those frikking Oxides, then Jenny IIs... after that, probably a mix of those 3 Assaults and VomitHammers. I hear the DakkaWidow is stronk, too, and again, maybe in team settings it really is, but PUGlandia, can't say they put the fear in me. Respect, yes, fear, no.

So what is everyone else encountering? Am I just in the Twilight Zone or has KDK bloat prety much passed? I know the Heavy Queue is back to it's usual 10%+ higher than assault, with assault and medium running neck and neck in MM when I drop.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 16 June 2016 - 09:15 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

I got the basic skills on three Kodiaks and then parked them in the Mech hangar. I think a lot of others did the same. The most I have seen in a game recently was three. One was on my team and two on the other team. They draw so much attention that they are usually the first things to go down in the games I have been in.

[The Flying Gecko]

Remember when the Oxide first came out and it was the most OP light mech in the game? I didn't buy it because 'obviously they're going to nerf it next patch' .... and then they gave it MORE buffs? Good times.