Jump to content

Does This Community Really Want An Energy Draw Feature?


819 replies to this topic

#141 Quicksilver Aberration

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nightmare
  • The Nightmare
  • 11,801 posts
  • LocationKansas City, MO

Posted 14 June 2016 - 09:04 AM

View PostAlan Davion, on 14 June 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

Oh for crying out loud. The game is already unbalanced at the core by allowing pinpoint accuracy and constant alpha striking.

The only thing consistently alpha-striking, are dakka boats. Please stop trying to spread this misnomer that the best mechs just alpha-strike for days, because it is false. Which is why any power draw system that is not based purely on damage output is bound to fail, because otherwise it is just another version of heat and thus bound to the same failures (like how we have the weird limit to how many gauss you can charge up).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 June 2016 - 09:06 AM.


#142 Mystere

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 22,783 posts
  • LocationClassified

Posted 14 June 2016 - 09:06 AM

View PostJohnny Z, on 14 June 2016 - 02:37 AM, said:

I'm glad you feel that way because I am almost 100% certain the next system will be seriously cheat unfriendly. Hard core.

So any cheats out there better start panicking and trolling full time to stop this.

For anyone who isn't a cheat, that means TTK will go way up. They hate that. A lot.


Meh! That only means people will be more creative with macros. I guess it will be a good time for me to delve deeper into the bowels of Thrustmaster's TARGET. <maniacal Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image>

Edited by Mystere, 14 June 2016 - 09:20 AM.


#143 Mystere

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 22,783 posts
  • LocationClassified

Posted 14 June 2016 - 09:11 AM

View PostJohnny Z, on 14 June 2016 - 02:56 AM, said:

That's funny because I have seen it quite a few times. Invulnerablity cheat more than any other.


Posted Image

#144 Gas Guzzler

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Daddy
  • Big Daddy
  • 14,257 posts
  • LocationCalifornia Central Coast

Posted 14 June 2016 - 09:12 AM

View PostAlan Davion, on 14 June 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:


*facepalm*

Oh for crying out loud. The game is already unbalanced at the core by allowing pinpoint accuracy and constant alpha striking.

Read my previous post above.


*facedesk*

Show us the video of you laser alphaing constantly. Be sure to hit override too!

#145 Pjwned

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Little Helper
  • 4,731 posts
  • LocationDancing on the grave of Energy Draw LOL

Posted 14 June 2016 - 09:13 AM

No, I don't really want an energy draw feature because convergence is the problem that needs to be addressed.

At least it will probably be better than what we have now.

#146 Gas Guzzler

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Daddy
  • Big Daddy
  • 14,257 posts
  • LocationCalifornia Central Coast

Posted 14 June 2016 - 09:22 AM

Have you guys seriously not even realized that top mechs aren't even about huge alphas (other than the SRM plus big ballistic brawlers) anymore? This is going to address the meta from 6 months ago, which is already falling by the wayside.

#147 Cy Mitchell

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Privateer
  • The Privateer
  • 2,688 posts

Posted 14 June 2016 - 09:49 AM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 14 June 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

Have you guys seriously not even realized that top mechs aren't even about huge alphas (other than the SRM plus big ballistic brawlers) anymore? This is going to address the meta from 6 months ago, which is already falling by the wayside.



It is still an Alpha meta. Just because laser Alphas are gradually falling out of favor does not change the fact that the meta is loading up on weapons and firing all your weapons at once (thus Alpha). Whatever they come up with needs to address laser, ballistic, missiles and particle Alphas.

As I have no inside information on the proposed system, I will refrain from commenting on its effectiveness.

#148 Quicksilver Aberration

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nightmare
  • The Nightmare
  • 11,801 posts
  • LocationKansas City, MO

Posted 14 June 2016 - 09:52 AM

View PostRampage, on 14 June 2016 - 09:49 AM, said:



It is still an Alpha meta. Just because laser Alphas are gradually falling out of favor does not change the fact that the meta is loading up on weapons and firing all your weapons at once (thus Alpha). Whatever they come up with needs to address laser, ballistic, missiles and particle Alphas.

As I have no inside information on the proposed system, I will refrain from commenting on its effectiveness.

Even laser builds don't alpha throughout a match, the BK for example doesn't sustain fire for that long, and neither does the ERLL Grasshopper often forced to use a subset of their weapons. Even the great meta whale of old didn't always alpha. If you think this is suddenly going to changing the fact that firing weapons within seconds of each other is always going to powerful and preferred, then you are mistaken, and honestly, I question whether that fact is a problem.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 June 2016 - 09:54 AM.


#149 Just Another Bad Robot Game

    Member

  • Pip
  • 12 posts

Posted 14 June 2016 - 09:55 AM

View PostJohnny Z, on 14 June 2016 - 02:37 AM, said:

I'm glad you feel that way because I am almost 100% certain the next system will be seriously cheat unfriendly. Hard core.

So any cheats out there better start panicking and trolling full time to stop this.

For anyone who isn't a cheat, that means TTK will go way up. They hate that. A lot.


Are you seriously terrible enough to believe this?

#150 1453 R

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bridesmaid
  • Bridesmaid
  • 5,578 posts

Posted 14 June 2016 - 10:00 AM

Wow.

Even just buzzing through a few pages here, some of the assumptions people are making about how power draw will work are...just...wow.

Couple points:

1. “WHY DON’T THEY JUST USE THE %&$&@^$*&#^#&@$&@*&$*@&$*@*$^&ING TABLETOP HEAT SCALE ALREADY!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!???!!!!11!1!??!111oneone!”

Because a strict 30-point heat scale would be the death of MechWarrior Online no matter how high dissipation got. Firing one medium laser one time in a ‘True to TT’ heat scale puts you at risk of shutdown and ammo explosion, which is clearly and obviously not true to the spirit of the tabletop rules. Remember – the TT scale sinks heat before it has a chance to affect the generating ‘Mech, and only leftover heat over the ‘Mech’s HEAT SINKING CAPACITY (familiar term, that…) is rolled against the heat scale. To properly simulate this, there would have to be a buffer zone between resting heat and “you’re in trouble” heat. A 60-point heat scale, with thirty points of ‘free’ heat, would be more true to the intended spirit of the TT ruleset. But we can’t have that because lore grognards with no understanding of how real-time games work insist that anything but a copy/pasted 30-point heat scale ripped straight out of a sourcebook is a Horrible Abomination of All Things “A BattleTech Game™”

As for why they’ve never tried the 60-point scale, or anything like it? Maybe they focus-tested a similar effects table for high heat and found out that rather than being the Golden Solution armchair devs espouse it as, it turned out to suck all the fun out of a fight and frustrate players with randomized, poorly-explained effects they could do little to mitigate? Perhaps coding a dozen completely different randomized events to happen based off randomized rolls on a heat scale is a technical challenge they don’t like (though that is admittedly a rather weak excuse, if so)? Perhaps they just like energy draw better? Who knows.

2.) “Energy Draw is sh!t because it wasn’t in TT< and anything that wasn’t in TT is sh!t.”

Ahem: For Balance, Corerule Ignore. TT is a dice-rolling game played over the course of several hours/days/weeks/years where one man acts as the central hive mind for his legion of mind-controlled ‘Mech-driving drone pilots; MechWarrior Online is a real-time combat game where you are one guy in one ‘Mech. There are incompatibilities between those two mediums and methods which every other MechWarrior game to date has had to take liberties to address.

Energy Draw is not sh!t because it does not yet exist. Ghost Heat is sh!t, and has been sh!t since its introduction. It’s simply sh!t that has gotten old enough to petrify and stop actively stinking; we’re all used to the smell and the presence of this old, petrified sh!t in the middle of our gaming space, but that does not stop Ghost Heat from being sh!t. As has been said a few times herein: anything is better than Ghost Heat.

3.) “But I don’t want a system where my available power is based on the square of my engine rating divided by the number of heat sinks in my ‘Mech to the 0.5th power of the Chassis Modifier where my recharge is based on the average plotted position of the day/night map cycle multiplied by ambient heat and divided by cloud coverage and a random variable rolled at the start of the match which represents available fuel for ‘Mech reactors, and…!”

What in the actual unholy banana-cream hell are you people talking about?

Seriously. I’ve seen so many people build their own personal Energy Draw systems with these incredibly, unrealistically baroque requirements, effects, calculations and modifiers, when the stated intent from Piranha is to streamline and simplify the Ghost Heat penalty. You know what the system is most likely to be?

“You have [X] power available. Every weapon consumes its own value of [Y] power when it’s fired. Fire enough [Y] in a single shot to exceed [X] and you trigger an extra heat spike. ”

That is, I’d bet, going to be pretty much it. The idea was to make it simple. Easy. And universal. All this Panic math people are doing is just weird. it makes no sense on its own, and it makes no sense that Piranha would implement that sort of ridiculous system when the chief complaint over Ghost Heat – the complaints that finally got Piranha to investigate alternative ideas – has always been “this system is too weird, opaque and complicated.”

4.) “But…but…but…!”

Chill. This isn’t a ‘Mech-balancing issue. Not really. It’s a systems issue, and given how long they’ve been plinking away at it, you can rest pretty much assured that it’s not a knee-jerk nonsense-thing they’re throwing at the wall to see if it sticks.

Wait for the next Russcast. Let him give his take before you guys bust out the pitchforks and the anti-sky umbrellas.

Edited by 1453 R, 14 June 2016 - 10:03 AM.


#151 Sader325

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,181 posts

Posted 14 June 2016 - 10:04 AM

View PostJohnny Z, on 14 June 2016 - 02:37 AM, said:

I'm glad you feel that way because I am almost 100% certain the next system will be seriously cheat unfriendly. Hard core.

So any cheats out there better start panicking and trolling full time to stop this.

For anyone who isn't a cheat, that means TTK will go way up. They hate that. A lot.


I don't like the implication you're making by suddenly talking about cheating while quoting me.

#152 TheLuc

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • 746 posts

Posted 14 June 2016 - 10:04 AM

View PostAppogee, on 14 June 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

One other thing: it will probably completely change the Mechwarrior Online gaming experience.

In a 4yo game that's still suffering from too few maps, too few modes, modes that mostly play out exactly the same way as each other, and a meta game that is dying on the vine, that may be a very good thing.

Variety is the spice of life, and all.


Variety, may be spice of Life. We, players have zillions of other games for that. I want a Mechwarrior experience, not Hawken or Armored Core (Armored Core was based on a power draw Mechanic) If Gundam Games were available in English, most probably I would have dumped MWO, I`m writing this and I prefer the Battletech Lore.

1453 R,
While you are right about the Sky is falling while power draw is not even there, There is issues way more important than ghost heat. Player retention should be a priority and little has been done for that. While Ghost Heat seem to enrage mostly the competitive crowd of the game, I was able to work around the stink that you speak of very well without any major issues. The point of a nuclear reactor as main power is infinite energy at the price of heat which the the power draw system contradict the lore directly, so I don't want it.

There is some good things about MWO but looks like PGI ( Excluding Alex and 3D modellers ) has no clue what is Battletech and are heading in the wrong direction, so we players get less and less Battletech in MWO and more LoL with Robots.

At this rate, next Mech pack will be a 55 tons Dalek from Dr Who.

Edited by TheLuc, 14 June 2016 - 10:27 AM.


#153 PhoenixFire55

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 5,725 posts
  • LocationSt.Petersburg / Outreach

Posted 14 June 2016 - 10:05 AM

View PostPjwned, on 14 June 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

No, I don't really want an energy draw feature because convergence is the problem that needs to be addressed.

At least it will probably be better than what we have now.


+100. But PGI can't do it. We all know the real reason, but their excuse is that server won't be able to calculate convergence + HSR/ping differences etc.

Minimally viable productTM.

#154 Johnny Z

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • 9,942 posts
  • LocationDueling on Solaris

Posted 14 June 2016 - 10:05 AM

View PostMystere, on 14 June 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:


Posted Image


Did you take that selfie in the morning?

#155 mogs01gt

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • 4,292 posts
  • LocationOhio

Posted 14 June 2016 - 10:05 AM

Yes I want a power draw system. That is how lore functioned and it worked.

#156 Johnny Z

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • 9,942 posts
  • LocationDueling on Solaris

Posted 14 June 2016 - 10:07 AM

View PostSader325, on 14 June 2016 - 10:04 AM, said:



I don't like the implication you're making by suddenly talking about cheating while quoting me.


I couldn't care less if someone talks about cheating when they quote me. Although I do have sore spots to. All to do with things that effected my rl work. In which case I go off easy.

Edited by Johnny Z, 14 June 2016 - 10:17 AM.


#157 Gas Guzzler

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Daddy
  • Big Daddy
  • 14,257 posts
  • LocationCalifornia Central Coast

Posted 14 June 2016 - 10:08 AM

View Postmogs01gt, on 14 June 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

Yes I want a power draw system. That is how lore functioned and it worked.


No it didn't, there was never a power draw system in lore ever.

#158 Johnny Z

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • 9,942 posts
  • LocationDueling on Solaris

Posted 14 June 2016 - 10:11 AM

View PostJust Another Bad Robot Game, on 14 June 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:



Are you seriously terrible enough to believe this?


I play another game with wall to wall cheats that get banned none stop daily and their names are announced live on live servers in chat often. I don't have to believe it, I know it.

When I started playing that game there had been 4000 banned. Now its over 7000. Its no mystery who is cheating.

Edited by Johnny Z, 14 June 2016 - 10:13 AM.


#159 Quicksilver Aberration

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nightmare
  • The Nightmare
  • 11,801 posts
  • LocationKansas City, MO

Posted 14 June 2016 - 10:14 AM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 14 June 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

No it didn't, there was never a power draw system in lore ever.

There were references to one in some of the books, but it has never been a consistent concept in lore afaik.

#160 Cy Mitchell

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Privateer
  • The Privateer
  • 2,688 posts

Posted 14 June 2016 - 10:15 AM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 14 June 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

Even laser builds don't alpha throughout a match, the BK for example doesn't sustain fire for that long, and neither does the ERLL Grasshopper often forced to use a subset of their weapons. Even the great meta whale of old didn't always alpha. If you think this is suddenly going to changing the fact that firing weapons within seconds of each other is always going to powerful and preferred, then you are mistaken, and honestly, I question whether that fact is a problem.



Yes, I know. Still most meta Mechs are set up to fire all their weapons as often as possible; usually a couple times at the beginning of an engagement before they have to start rotating weapon groups. I have adapted and do it myself because it is the only way to be competitive and live through an encounter

Some builds can fire all their weapons as many as three or four times before heat becomes a major issue. Unless they are only running a couple weapons IMO that should not happen. Opinions vary and you and some others may not agree but I am one that supports the notion that an Alpha strike should be a rarity and should have negative repercussions on anyone that is doing it too often. Right now, that is pretty much everybody.

I look forward to a better system of controlling it.





4 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 4 guests, 0 anonymous users