819 replies to this topic

[Signal27]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

Its pretty clear... its based on damage (30 is the starting point) with a small chance of a modifier for spread damage.

I still would like to see how it actually plays out with my hands on the keyboard and mouse instead of basing my opinion solely on how it sounds on paper. That said, I'm not one to discourage conversation about how it sounds on paper at all. So let me just say that if it's mainly about alphas over 30 damage generating more heat than usual, that doesn't sound like a bad idea at all.

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Either way, lasers on heavies or assaults will be a nonfactor,

Explain this to me, please. I don't understand.

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and the game will devolve into "I have more DPS than you do!!"

All PvP games on the market always have DPS as a heavy factor of balance. This is nothing new and just a factor of gaming everyone needs to get used to. That said, there are still other factors in MWO that can mitigate mechs built for pure DPS - speed, maneuverability, mech size, etc. etc.

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Anyone hoping for anything more is plagued with hope and wishful thinking. I asked Russ last night about if ballistics will be weighted differently than lasers, and he said no its about damage. So that's right folks, a medium laser is considered as effective as an AC5 in terms of energy draw.

Why is this a bad thing? You're not about to argue realism in a game about big stompy 5-story tall robot war machines, are you?

[dervishx5]

Well it's going up on the test server. Make sure you participate and give your feedback. We never got information warfare because of the negative feedback, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility that energy draw will die a similar death.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

dervishx5, on 09 August 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

Well it's going up on the test server. Make sure you participate and give your feedback. We never got information warfare because of the negative feedback, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility that energy draw will die a similar death.

Provided it is just detailed on the UI, more cohesive, and a less prohibitive version of ghost heat then I'm fine, but chances are it will go overboard.

[Gas Guzzler]

Signal27, on 09 August 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

I still would like to see how it actually plays out with my hands on the keyboard and mouse instead of basing my opinion solely on how it sounds on paper. That said, I'm not one to discourage conversation about how it sounds on paper at all. So let me just say that if it's mainly about alphas over 30 damage generating more heat than usual, that doesn't sound like a bad idea at all.


Explain this to me, please. I don't understand.


All PvP games on the market always have DPS as a heavy factor of balance. This is nothing new and just a factor of gaming everyone needs to get used to. That said, there are still other factors in MWO that can mitigate mechs built for pure DPS - speed, maneuverability, mech size, etc. etc.


Why is this a bad thing? You're not about to argue realism in a game about big stompy 5-story tall robot war machines, are you?

Okay, if you can't do more than 30 damage at a time with laser, why stack enough lasers to do 60 damage, and then fire them in volleys when you could just take a different mech with 4-5 AC5s and jack up your DPS, heat efficiency, AND have PPFLD?

DPS is a factor of balance and that's fine. Up front damage is ALSO a factor of balance, and is a counter to DPS. So what happens when you take up front damage a

Has nothing to do with realism, has everything to do with the fact that an AC5 is infinitely better than a ML. Energy draw limits you at 6MLs, or 6 AC5s. What is more deadly? It all comes back to the fact that lasers need to have the ability to do up front damage to be balanced, otherwise they have nothing on ballistics, or even PPFLD alphas. Remember when the Timber Wolf came out, it took 54-61 damage of lasers to be competitive with 35 PPFLD damage from 2 ER PPCs and Gauss. In the tournament build of this game right now, it takes 58 damage of lasers on a Black Knight to be on par with 20 damage from 4 AC5s of a Black Widow ( they nerfed both of them in the live servers so I'm not 100% sure where they stand now, I haven't played them that much). Do you see that trend though? Lasers need damage to be good, AC5s make do with much smaller alphas.

[Deathlike]

AdamBaines, on 09 August 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

Read this is so painfully funny to me. All this community has begged for in the last 3-4 years is the death of the current heat system, a.k.a. Ghost Heat. So what did the community do? Come together, talk about a possible solution ( I believe it was Homeless Bill, whom is very respected in the MWO community, who really pushed for this, but please correct me where I am wrong) the community agreed it was a good viable change to at least TRY. PGI does some research with continued feedback from the community and decides to give it a go...and now I read this........

And we wonder why it seems like PGI does not listen to the community.

This is why I generally don't participate on the boards anymore. its just frustrating.

I suggest you actually READ what Homeless Bill proposed vs what PGI is rumored to actually do.

They are completely not one and the same.

Read what Homeless Bill proposed:
http://www.qqmercs.c...-to-ghost-heat/

Edited by Deathlike, 09 August 2016 - 08:34 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

dervishx5, on 09 August 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

Well it's going up on the test server. Make sure you participate and give your feedback. We never got information warfare because of the negative feedback, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility that energy draw will die a similar death.

One can only hope.

[Satan n stuff]

For the record I was not in favor of Homeless Bill's suggestion and I'm considerably less enthusiastic about PGI's version.

[AdamBaines]

Deathlike, on 09 August 2016 - 08:32 AM, said:

I suggest you actually READ what Homeless Bill proposed vs what PGI is rumored to actually do.

They are completely not one and the same.

1) Rumored. Wont know till its there will we?
2) I did read it a long time ago.....i do need to brush up.
3) I don't think any one expects it to be one in the same. Lets hope it address the problems of Ghost heat.

My point still remains.

[Gas Guzzler]

Deathlike, on 09 August 2016 - 08:32 AM, said:

I suggest you actually READ what Homeless Bill proposed vs what PGI is rumored to actually do.

They are completely not one and the same.

Read what Homeless Bill proposed:
http://www.qqmercs.c...-to-ghost-heat/

LMAO I have to laugh at the concern with poptarts in there. What's funnier still, is PGI's version does nothing to address 30 PPFLD alphas.

I will agree that at least Homeless Bill's proposal wasn't based only on damage, but still, I don't really think anything more then balancing some things is necessary. We are all worried about high alphas frequently, yet we STILL have energy boats with energy heat generation quirks. I mean seriously?

[AnTi90d]

Wow.. I'd almost forgotten about this thread. Thanks for the necromancy, as it's more relevant now than then.

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In Battletech, people easily build heat neutral builds that alphastrike every turn. If your mech has 15 double heatsinks and your weapons do 30 heat, you can stand in one spot and alpha all day while staying at 0 heat.

The thing about the TT heatscale that isn't represented here is: Battletech's heatscale is absolutely deadly. If you end a turn with 19 heat, your ammo starts to explode while its still in your mech. The ammo explosions don't only damage you, but also everyone near you. Heat causes ammo explosions which can cause your entire team to die, if they're standing near you. 30 rounds of AC20 exploding is 600 damage.. and TT mechs have much thinner armor than they do here.

http://d20battletech...t/heattable.bmp

Instead of making MWO more Battletech-y, PGI's plan is to screw over lasers and turn the game into a dps/dakka heaven.

Lowering the maximum heat threshold and increasing heat dissipation would be a great way to limit alphastrikes while also making the game more in line with TT and BT lore.. because mechs have a chance to shutdown at 14 heat.

This Power Draw system is very obviously some cooky idea from people that don't play / have never played Battletech.. IE: PGI.

Changing the base system that everyone is quite used to and has built mech loadouts around and even purchased mechs based on what works with the current system is a slap in the face of everyone that has put money into the game.

I predict that the system will go through the 2 PTS rounds that are planned and then shoved into the game with little changes and no care for negative feedback.. (look at the last roundtable and how Russ ignored the people saying the Long Tom should be removed.. he went person to person until he found a guy that said it might not need to be removed. PGI selectively ignores feedback if it isn't what they want to hear.).. then the forums will erupt as people that don't ever post or frequent this place suddenly have their builds and their mechs become unusable with the new system.

An AC5, with its low cooldown and pinpoint damage, does not have the same value in-game as a medium laser. An AC5 is far more valuable.. but this system is going to treat them the same. All the mechs that have only energy mounts are going to get shafted harder than Shaft's girlfriend and they're going to be filled with rage from having their mechs that they payed cash for rendered nearly useless. It's a bad move to directly screw over cash-paying customers with a system that doesn't need to exist.. especially when there are other ways to achieve the goal of higher TTK that won't turn energy only battlemechs into worthless garbage.

[Deathlike]

Satan n stuff, on 09 August 2016 - 08:35 AM, said:

For the record I was not in favor of Homeless Bill's suggestion and I'm considerably less enthusiastic about PGI's version.

I'm in favor of his suggestion, but I get that people didn't like it.

The thing is, regardless of the actual change... some people have this notion that TTK is low... which is only true if you walk/travel single file into a firing line. While people aren't lemmings, sometimes people move into such a thing, and then complain that their mech "should've survived that"... and that simply wouldn't happen in real life, let alone a simulation of walking into a trap (unless you're the hero of some sort of single player campaign - but this is Multiplayer).

There's a another notion where your "frankenmech" build (usually most TT stock builds) would somehow be better or superior... and that's just a terrible idea. I'm not saying meta-mechs should be the end all, but understand that even a stock Timberwolf-Prime is somewhat of a garbagy Frankenmech... just simple optimizations like dropping MGs or just replacing the CMPL with a CERMED would be an easy improvement (or dropping the LRMs altogether for that matter). It's easier to make better synergy with better designs. It's not rocket science.

Edited by Deathlike, 09 August 2016 - 08:44 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

AdamBaines, on 09 August 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

1) Rumored. Wont know till its there will we?
2) I did read it a long time ago.....i do need to brush up.
3) I don't think any one expects it to be one in the same. Lets hope it address the problems of Ghost heat.

My point still remains.

We DO KNOW! Wake up and smell the roses. PGI's version is based on damage! Has been stated, MULTIPLE times. The starting point is likely 30, is what we have been told.

[Signal27]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 08:32 AM, said:

Okay, if you can't do more than 30 damage at a time with laser, why stack enough lasers to do 60 damage, and then fire them in volleys when you could just take a different mech with 4-5 AC5s and jack up your DPS, heat efficiency, AND have PPFLD?

Because lasers are "hitscan" weapons while ballistics and missiles have an actual projectile you have to calculate a "lead" for if the target is moving at all. That in of itself is a big deal for a lot of us. Also, lasers weigh a lot less and take up less space than ballistics.

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DPS is a factor of balance and that's fine. Up front damage is ALSO a factor of balance, and is a counter to DPS. So what happens when you take up front damage a

You got cut off right there, but I'm going to assume the last word was "away." I already explained above that lasers and missiles already have other factors that players may favor over the DPS output of ballistics (weight, space, and ease of aim).

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Has nothing to do with realism, has everything to do with the fact that an AC5 is infinitely better than a ML. Energy draw limits you at 6MLs, or 6 AC5s. What is more deadly? It all comes back to the fact that lasers need to have the ability to do up front damage to be balanced, otherwise they have nothing on ballistics, or even PPFLD alphas. Remember when the Timber Wolf came out, it took 54-61 damage of lasers to be competitive with 35 PPFLD damage from 2 ER PPCs and Gauss. In the tournament build of this game right now, it takes 58 damage of lasers on a Black Knight to be on par with 20 damage from 4 AC5s of a Black Widow ( they nerfed both of them in the live servers so I'm not 100% sure where they stand now, I haven't played them that much). Do you see that trend though? Lasers need damage to be good, AC5s make do with much smaller alphas.

I can't mount six AC5s on my Locust.

[AdamBaines]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 08:43 AM, said:

We DO KNOW! Wake up and smell the roses. PGI's version is based on damage! Has been stated, MULTIPLE times. The starting point is likely 30, is what we have been told.

And we are done here.

[Mystere]

Yellonet, on 09 August 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

Smaller and fewer alphas can only make fire-fights more interesting and fun.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 August 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

Or just makes brawl rushes and dakka pushes the only way to play the game.

Which begs the question, which one is more worthy of being called:

A BattleTech Game

[Deathlike]

AdamBaines, on 09 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

And we are done here.

To be fair... 30 damage has been the benchmark.

Dual Gauss is 30 damage (Quad Gauss means you need to have 2 groups of Gauss).

6 Med Lasers is 30 damage.

2 CERPPCs is 30 damage (though more like 20 damage with 5 to an adjacent side)..

PGI (and our balance overlord) has mostly agreed that 30 damage is where it's at for the most part, so it's much less rumor than it is base conjecture of how Ghost Heat has been applied.

Gas Guzzler, on 09 August 2016 - 08:41 AM, said:

LMAO I have to laugh at the concern with poptarts in there. What's funnier still, is PGI's version does nothing to address 30 PPFLD alphas.

I will agree that at least Homeless Bill's proposal wasn't based only on damage, but still, I don't really think anything more then balancing some things is necessary. We are all worried about high alphas frequently, yet we STILL have energy boats with energy heat generation quirks. I mean seriously?

Maybe, but I don't believe our balance overlord is touching LBX or the Mist Lynx soon either.

[Signal27]

Mystere, on 09 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

Which begs the question, which one is more worthy of being called:

A BattleTech Game

The one that more players will pony up the dough to play.

[Johnny Z]

AnTi90d, on 09 August 2016 - 08:42 AM, said:

Wow.. I'd almost forgotten about this thread. Thanks for the necromancy, as it's more relevant now than then.

-----

In Battletech, people easily build heat neutral builds that alphastrike every turn. If your mech has 15 double heatsinks and your weapons do 30 heat, you can stand in one spot and alpha all day while staying at 0 heat.

The thing about the TT heatscale that isn't represented here is: Battletech's heatscale is absolutely deadly. If you end a turn with 19 heat, your ammo starts to explode while its still in your mech. The ammo explosions don't only damage you, but also everyone near you. Heat causes ammo explosions which can cause your entire team to die, if they're standing near you. 30 rounds of AC20 exploding is 600 damage.. and TT mechs have much thinner armor than they do here.

http://d20battletech...t/heattable.bmp

Instead of making MWO more Battletech-y, PGI's plan is to screw over lasers and turn the game into a dps/dakka heaven.

Lowering the maximum heat threshold and increasing heat dissipation would be a great way to limit alphastrikes while also making the game more in line with TT and BT lore.. because mechs have a chance to shutdown at 14 heat.

This Power Draw system is very obviously some cooky idea from people that don't play / have never played Battletech.. IE: PGI.

Changing the base system that everyone is quite used to and has built mech loadouts around and even purchased mechs based on what works with the current system is a slap in the face of everyone that has put money into the game.

I predict that the system will go through the 2 PTS rounds that are planned and then shoved into the game with little changes and no care for negative feedback.. (look at the last roundtable and how Russ ignored the people saying the Long Tom should be removed.. he went person to person until he found a guy that said it might not need to be removed. PGI selectively ignores feedback if it isn't what they want to hear.).. then the forums will erupt as people that don't ever post or frequent this place suddenly have their builds and their mechs become unusable with the new system.

An AC5, with its low cooldown and pinpoint damage, does not have the same value in-game as a medium laser. An AC5 is far more valuable.. but this system is going to treat them the same. All the mechs that have only energy mounts are going to get shafted harder than Shaft's girlfriend and they're going to be filled with rage from having their mechs that they payed cash for rendered nearly useless. It's a bad move to directly screw over cash-paying customers with a system that doesn't need to exist.. especially when there are other ways to achieve the goal of higher TTK that won't turn energy only battlemechs into worthless garbage.

Well said at first and went downhill near the end.

Its not a move to screw anyone. Its a move to make a standard for dps that isn't constantly circumvented and exploited. Simple as that.

Want to be a high scorer in a match, learn to pilot and shoot well.

The easy mode players are the only ones that will be crying about fair play that, hopefully, this energy draw/pool feature will bring.

Thanks for the reply I quoted, helped me make an awesome reply to.

[Gas Guzzler]

Signal27, on 09 August 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

Because lasers are "hitscan" weapons while ballistics and missiles have an actual projectile you have to calculate a "lead" for if the target is moving at all. That in of itself is a big deal for a lot of us. Also, lasers weigh a lot less and take up less space than ballistics.


You got cut off right there, but I'm going to assume the last word was "away." I already explained above that lasers and missiles already have other factors that players may favor over the DPS output of ballistics (weight, space, and ease of aim).



I can't mount six AC5s on my Locust.

And before PPFLD was much more evil than hitscan lasers. I tend to roll my eyes at either statement. Its not really much harder to aim projectiles, and then you get nice PPFLD and don't have to hold on target for a second, which is a trade off. It doesn't really matter that AC5s are heavier. You can put 4 AC5s on a heavy mech, vs 58 damage worth of lasers. That's the end result, even though they are heavier, you can still squeeze 4 in with enough ammo, and you don't need DHS. Right now they are close with slightly different roles, after Energy Draw, 4 AC5s will be the CLEAR winner, regardless of the hit to speed.

Once again, the Black Widow cares not for the "tradeoffs" of ballistics, and can't hear those downsides over its monster DPS.

Lights don't really get effected by this, except for Clan lights that can no longer mount 6 cSPL without penalty. Like I indicated, its more about heavies and assaults that are going to get absolutely wrecked if they are energy boats.

[Bud Crue]

Here's what I hope to experience:

PGI: Hey community lets test the new power draw system together. But first, allow me to introduce you to it. Here is what it is all about. Here is what we want to achieve with it. Here is what we hope it will do and how we think it will work. Here is why we think it will work. What do you think? How do you think it can be improved or made better given what we are trying to achieve?

Community: (hesitant and suspicious of PGI seeming to care what it thinks) Well, since you asked, we like x and z but y seems like a bad idea, etc. (eventually perking up as they see PGI interacting with the conversation) The community makes lots of observations and responses, Pros and cons. With PGI interacting with those observations appear to bring hope and a new sense of partnership to the community.

One week later.

PGI: This is great! Keep the feed back coming as we go live today on the test servers. We will give a day of premium time for each log in to the test server per day to encourage you to play the test server. Lets see if we can make this work. Remember keep the observations coming and let us know what is working and what isn't working we have several forum rooms set up to accommodate you so please try and post in the right thread (bugs, the what you like thread, what isn't working thread, how it can be improved thread, etc.).

Community: This is going to be interesting, lets see how this plays. (Plays) Here are our observations...

One to two months later.

PGI: Great test community and great feed back. Thanks for your help. Based on our preliminary review here is what we think we will do... because several people reported issues with X we will hold off on X when we go live next month. Features Y and Z look good though and we are going to put those into the game next month. Thanks for all the useful input on this. We couldn't have made this work without you. Remember even after we go live, keep an eye on things and let us know if there are issues!

Community: Wow PGI that was a refreshing experience, perhaps you have a mech pack or three that I can gladly purchase without snark or passive aggressive hostility because I am so legitimately excited about this game and your new found stewardship of it? Yes, PGI, YES! I DO WANT TO BUY A MECH PACK!
----------------------------------------------

What I expect to happen:

PGI: Ok community here is energy draw. It is on the test server. Test it. You will get no cbills, or other rewards when logging in on the test server.

Community: (bewildered) Uh could you please explain how the system works, what you are trying to accomplish with it?
PGI: (silence).
Community: (still bewildered but getting angry) Well this is stupid, why can't they just leave well enough alone. Looks like about 5 people have played on the test server since I have yet to get a match. This sucks. Does this make sense to anyone? Screw it. I'm done.

1 week later

PGI: well since the community seems uninterested in testing the new system we will flip a coin and decide if we will put it in next week or not. If we do put it in we will certainly put up a post explaining why it is the greatest thing ever but we won't actually tell you how it works or what we hope to achieve with it. If it ends up sucking for some obvious reason that we just missed, but that the community points out, we will say that it is working as intended for several days and then hot fix it, at which point we will state that we knew all along that it was broken.

In the event that we decide not to put it into the game, we will simply say that hostility from the players over a single element of the proposed change made it impossible to incorporate any of the rest of it no matter how unrelated all the good stuff is related from the one bad thing.

Either way, would you like to buy a mech pack?