819 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hotthedd, on 10 August 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

Do you mean as opposed to get the highest alpha, stack that, push, win, rinse, repeat?
The exact argument you are making can be made about alpha strikes, just with lower TTK.

Except it isn't if you actually pay attention. 2 ERPPC and dakka Hunchbacks are currently stronger than the laser vomit version (15-20 PPFLD versus the 54-68 damage a laser vomit version puts out). The Dakka Mauler prior to the release of the Kodiak was the strongest assault with a whopping 25 damage alpha strike vs the 54-55 that their laser counterparts put out.

Hotthedd, on 10 August 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

It does not have to be 1:1, but in situations wher it can either be closer or not, the choice should always be closer.

Sure, as long as it isn't at the cost of gameplay elements (like the DPS vs Alpha dynamic or the viability of strats/tactics).

Hotthedd, on 10 August 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

What "basis" in the BT universe is there for "alpha oriented" weapons? I've never come across that term in any of the TROs or other lore.

Weapons that had a big punch, which btw, hit harder in there than they do here, is part of the reason you need to stack them. Now, if you wanted to half armor, half heat capacity/dissipation, and fix Gauss Rifles (and potentially increase recycle times across the board) so they actually are apart of the heat balance system, then yes, I'm all for trying that, but until that point allowing weapons to double up to have the same punch they did in TT I'm going to go ahead and say that the dynamics are a bit different in this game.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 August 2016 - 02:05 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Hotthedd, on 10 August 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

Do you mean as opposed to get the highest alpha, stack that, push, win, rinse, repeat?
The exact argument you are making can be made about alpha strikes, just with lower TTK.

What "basis" in the BT universe is there for "alpha oriented" weapons? I've never come across that term in any of the TROs or other lore.

Right now you can go with DPS, alpha power at mid-long range, PPFLD alpha at mid-long range, brawly SRMs (mixed with AC20 on assaults), etc, there are options other than DPS up and push. Without energy draw, there are alternatives to alpha style play, so no the same argument doesn't apply. And, BTW, the DPS method yields TTK that is no longer than the alpha game. Shorter in some cases in fact.

Every MechWarrior game has had alphas. There are alphas in the novels.. You are saying that because there are alpha strikes in MechWarrior games, MechWarrior games are not based on BattleTech??? That's ridiculous. Lasers are balanced differently in TT, because there is no real time burn durations, or projectile travel times, etc. Its a completely difference system. I see no reason why MechWarrior has to follow the same trends as a dice rolling board game.. there is no comparison to how each one plays out. Your opinion is the only reason why "alpha oriented" weapons shouldn't be in this game as far as I can tell.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hotthedd, on 10 August 2016 - 01:54 PM, said:

There is more to it, but who is the arbiter of what stays and what goes?

Game design, MW4 made the right choice in trying to break the mold, it's too bad the lesson was lost on PGI.

Hotthedd, on 10 August 2016 - 01:54 PM, said:

But it was not "Charlie's" fault for following orders. The player did nothing wrong.

That is accepted as part of the risk of standing out in the open together, nothing about changing alpha strikes will change that, as it will happen even with DoT weapons. The enemy who focuses that person set the terms of that engagement by deciding before exposure to focus that person down, creating effectively an 8v7 situation (because that single person will likely be unable to respond) and creating hesitation with your own teams choice in target giving them enough time to hold the advantage. That sort of situation has NOTHING to do with game balance and everything to do with tactical decisions.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 August 2016 - 02:02 PM.

[VitriolicViolet]

so with this system 3 LPL will be hotter than 3 PPCs? 3 LPL does 33 damage for 21 heat currently and 3 PPCs do 30 for 30, so then with the LPLs you will get extra heat because of the extra 3 damage?

At least with 'power draw' Highlanders might be good again

Edited by Violet Vitriol Price, 10 August 2016 - 02:06 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2016 - 01:59 PM, said:

Right now you can go with DPS, alpha power at mid-long range, PPFLD alpha at mid-long range, brawly SRMs (mixed with AC20 on assaults), etc, there are options other than DPS up and push. Without energy draw, there are alternatives to alpha style play, so no the same argument doesn't apply. And, BTW, the DPS method yields TTK that is no longer than the alpha game. Shorter in some cases in fact.

Every MechWarrior game has had alphas. There are alphas in the novels.. You are saying that because there are alpha strikes in MechWarrior games, MechWarrior games are not based on BattleTech??? That's ridiculous. Lasers are balanced differently in TT, because there is no real time burn durations, or projectile travel times, etc. Its a completely difference system. I see no reason why MechWarrior has to follow the same trends as a dice rolling board game.. there is no comparison to how each one plays out. Your opinion is the only reason why "alpha oriented" weapons shouldn't be in this game as far as I can tell.

Alphas are not the problem. Repeatable Alphas without negative consequences are the problem. There were Alphas in lore. There were not Alpha after Alpha after Alpha. If the new system introduces things like reduced speed and/or reduced agility and/or increased weapon cooldown/decreased ROF and/or impaired sensors for repeated Alpha strikes then I am 100% in favor of it and look forward to testing it on the PTS.

[Hotthedd]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 August 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Except it isn't if you actually pay attention. 2 ERPPC and dakka Hunchbacks are currently stronger than the laser vomit version (15-20 PPFLD versus the 54-68 damage a laser vomit version puts out). The Dakka Mauler prior to the release of the Kodiak was the strongest assault with a whopping 25 damage alpha strike vs the 54-55 that their laser counterparts put out.

If there were a precision penalty for group fire, both would be "nerfed" somewhat, but I believe tey would end up both being viable alternatives.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 August 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Sure, as long as it isn't at the cost of gameplay elements (like the DPS vs Alpha dynamic or the viability of strats/tactics).

It doesn't cost gameplay, it changes it. I get that you are a fan of the alpha meta. I would like to see more than one playstyle be viable.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 August 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Weapons that had a big punch, which btw, hit harder in there than they do here, which part of the reason you need to stack them. Now, if you wanted to half armor, half heat capacity/dissipation, and fix Gauss Rifles (and potentially increase recycle times across the board) so they actually are apart of the heat balance system, then yes, I'm all for trying that, but until that point allowing weapons to double up to have the same punch they did in TT I'm going to go ahead and say that the dynamics are a bit different in this game.

Yes yes yes yes yes!!
I guess you don't follow me on the boards , but I advocate for all of those things.
An actual heat scale with corresponding effects, basing damage on the 10 second system (Not 10 second recycles), and returning armor values and ammo closer to original.
...I think that game would be epic!

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 August 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

Game design, MW4 made the right choice in trying to break the mold, it's too bad the lesson was lost on PGI.

That is your opinion, and I respect that.
I do not share that opinion.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 August 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

That is accepted as part of the risk of standing out in the open together, nothing about changing alpha strikes will change that, as it will happen even with DoT weapons. The enemy who focuses that person set the terms of that engagement by deciding before exposure to focus that person down, creating effectively an 8v7 situation (because that single person will likely be unable to respond) and creating hesitation with your own teams choice in target giving them enough time to hold the advantage. That sort of situation has NOTHING to do with game balance and everything to do with tactical decisions.

Yes it is. It is beside the point that I was making, however.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hotthedd, on 10 August 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

I guess you don't follow me on the boards , but I advocate for all of those things.
An actual heat scale with corresponding effects, basing damage on the 10 second system (Not 10 second recycles), and returning armor values and ammo closer to original.

I'm not a fan of basing damage on the 10 second system (purely because some weapons are trash without BV), nor do I honestly care about "actual heat scale", I'm just saying a lowered heat capacity/dissipation will heavily limit the amount of firepower you can stack at once while the halved armor means that you don't need as many weapons to punch the same holes. Now what that means for how well you'll be able to specialize, I have no idea it was just a thought I entertained once because I kinda liked it because single weapons felt like they had more punch with that.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 August 2016 - 02:15 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Rampage, on 10 August 2016 - 02:06 PM, said:

Alphas are not the problem. Repeatable Alphas without negative consequences are the problem. There were Alphas in lore. There were not Alpha after Alpha after Alpha. If the new system introduces things like reduced speed and/or reduced agility and/or increased weapon cooldown/decreased ROF and/or impaired sensors for repeated Alpha strikes then I am 100% in favor of it and look forward to testing it on the PTS.

Repeatable Alphas are a myth. You get two of the 54-58 damage alphas and then you have to either wait, or only fire a couple weapons. Some Clan laser vomit mechs can't even alpha twice in a row without waiting. Being pushed in that situation by a cool running DPS machine is what I would call a "consequence".

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

Some Clan laser vomit mechs can't even alpha twice in a row without waiting.

*cough* Hunchback IIC-A *cough*

It is on the cusp of being to hot of an alpha because it has to wait for a second alpha.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 August 2016 - 02:20 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

nope but whenever they put up the idea for a feature theyre not really receptive of what WE think of it. I remember te 3pv fiasco when they had two separate threads with polls in them that were 4000 to 40 or so against and 9000 to 100 against and both were "accidentally" broken in the exact same way that their p[olls were made invisible.

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

Repeatable Alphas are a myth. You get two of the 54-58 damage alphas and then you have to either wait, or only fire a couple weapons. Some Clan laser vomit mechs can't even alpha twice in a row without waiting. Being pushed in that situation by a cool running DPS machine is what I would call a "consequence".

the whole reason ghost heat was ever introduced is because of this phenomenon. The Hexa Stalker used to be able to alpha once, maybe twice, before overheating and beng down for a good minute or so. But it was such a huge issue to russ or paul that they needed to put in ghost heat to kill it.

[Baulven]

Honestly if they could have weapon heat where you could do things like melt your weapons by firing too often I would be more for that then lower draw. You want to fire those weapons as fast as they can cycle? Well they get worse as they degrade and warp.

Granted I don't think this is possible with the current state. Just saying it would do far more to curb alpha warrior then the power draw idea.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Rampage, on 10 August 2016 - 02:06 PM, said:

Alphas are not the problem. Repeatable Alphas without negative consequences are the problem. There were Alphas in lore. There were not Alpha after Alpha after Alpha. If the new system introduces things like reduced speed and/or reduced agility and/or increased weapon cooldown/decreased ROF and/or impaired sensors for repeated Alpha strikes then I am 100% in favor of it and look forward to testing it on the PTS.

like this?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Baulven, on 10 August 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

Granted I don't think this is possible with the current state. Just saying it would do far more to curb alpha warrior then the power draw idea.

Not really, it would curb dakka boats more than it would curb alpha warrior; you aren't always firing alpha after alpha, you eventually get heat capped.

[dervishx5]

Battletech has advanced rules for firing your standard autocannons at a higher than normal rate with the risk of permanently jamming them or setting off the ammo in the weapon.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 August 2016 - 02:20 PM, said:

*cough* Hunchback IIC-A *cough*

It is on the cusp of being to hot of an alpha because it has to wait for a second alpha.

Even the Max laser Ebon can't handle it.. but that is the heat system at work..

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

I am totally anti-power draw!!! (I absolutelly hate power draw)

Im not saying I like laser vomit (but at the same time, I dont dislike it).

I miss PPFLD meta! Give this back to me! (TTK was much longer back in the days of PPFLD, matches were longer, and positioning and manuvering were much more important!!!) i will gladly take 35-40 dmg alphas over 60-80 dmg alphas if they made these weapon systems much more viable! (Yes i know they are currently viable... But I want them more viable to a much larger range of players over all skill levels!)

hashtag#bringbackPPFLDneverforget

[AnTi90d]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 10 August 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

like this?

I was thinking..

..we're already getting the reduced movement penalty..

If Power Draw isn't loved by all, and it seems like it won't be, why not introduce more aspects of that scale by:

• increasing reticule shake to simulate the negative to-hit modifier

• up the damage of ammo explosions and have them randomly happen at 50%+ heat

• have ammo explosions give AOE damage to the mech's immediate area

• (not shown on the scale, but is in TT) allow some cockpit damage on shutdown to simulate pilot damage that happens in TT

..then the heat scale would be a deadly nuisance.. people would be strongly discouraged from running super hot builds.. TTK would rise because people would be afraid of getting too hot.. we wouldn't need ghost heat to tell us not to run 6 PPCs on one build.. we'd be encouraged to run cooler weapons if we have the hardpoints.. ballistic boating would be strongly discouraged from deadlier ammo explosions..

It seems like it would solve everyone's TTK problems while also not rendering some mechs as useless and, at the same time, adding more TT flavor into the game.

[Gunny Kintaro 4444]

yes!

[1453 R]

Hotthedd, on 10 August 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

It doesn't cost gameplay, it changes it. I get that you are a fan of the alpha meta. I would like to see more than one playstyle be viable.

This is the issue, Hotthedd.

The whole forced-chainfire thing, where you can fire one UND PRECISELY VUN weapon accurately at any given time and trying to fire even so much as two small lasers simultaneously results in your 'Mech spontaneously exploding into a pile of flaming confetti with the word "Idiot" written on each and every little piece that all the old TT folks are so keen on...destroys virtually every existing playstyle.

Ranged sniping is gone. Outright, cannot-do-it-anymore gone, because a ranged sniper trying to stop an SRM guy from closing on him with one single Gauss rifle is unable to deal more than the most minor of token damage before that SRM guy is all up in his face with something like forty times his DPS and eating him like a ham sandwich.

Energy-centric 'Mechs are gone. Completely done. One AC/5 out-deepz's any number of lasers, of any type, at any range, in forced chainfire mode. One guy firing one AC/5 mounted on a Panther will deal more, and more effective, DPS than a Dire Whale configured with a dozen lasers, of which it can only ever fire one at a time without suffering the Wrath of the Old Ones. The Whale gets less DPS, less damage, less focused damage, more heat...everything bad you can think of, the Whale gets that end of the stick. Get two AC/5s, so you get a faster cycle rate on your forced chainfire? Well, that Blackjack will become an unstoppable nightmare beast to all energy-centric assaults who dare to show their faces before it!

C'mon, man. How can you possibly look at the game in its current state and say "if only everything was forced into chainfire mode at all times for all players forever, all of our balance problems would just vanish overnight and we'd Make MWO Great Again"?

[Cy Mitchell]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 10 August 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

like this?

Yeah, even the new BattleTech game being made by HBS will punish exceeding the heat limits. MWO does an inadequate job of it.

People are crying because they can only Alpha twice for 116 damage in about 3 seconds? And then they are relegated to firing a couple weapons? Seriously?

Show me in lore where any Mechwarrior pulled off back to back Alpha strikes, please.

Again, I am not advocating that you cannot use Alphas. I am advocating that there is a price to pay for using Alphas. IMO there is currently not and some Mechs can Alpha 3-5 times before exceeding maximum heat. Then they hide until they cool down enough to do it again. I am also not advocating that the two Medium pulse laser Mist Lynx cannot fir booth weapons at once because that is an Alpha. I think that is where PGI's 30 damage limit may come in. It is already used extensively in Ghost Heat. It just does not carry sufficient, progressive degrading of offensive power with it.

I look forward to testing the new system.