819 replies to this topic

[RestosIII]

I'm still in the crowd that wants a smaller maximum heat threshold, with increasing movement, hud, and jamming penalties the higher your heat is. None of the spooky heat or spooky energy.

[Funkin Disher]

I really want to know more about it.

But that's just me and my silly old-school thinking I suppose.

[Gas Guzzler]

Funkin Disher, on 14 August 2016 - 08:39 PM, said:

I really want to know more about it.

But that's just me and my silly old-school thinking I suppose.

The details that we will learn in time will only change the degree of suck that comes with it. The premise of "lets limit alphas to 30 damage" alone is enough for me to say "that's going to **** balance".

[Fester Wan Kenobi]

My take is kind of different. Get rid of ghost heat, the concept is just beyond my ability to grasp on making the game balanced. If you want balanced keep the cooldown rate on all weapons at 5 just like the gauss. Actually use the heat produced by the weapons fired to be placed on the heat scale and let the installed heat sinks dissipate the appropriate amount of heat over the cooldown period. Imagine that, letting the cooling system on the mech do its job. Also by having all weapons cooldown rates be the same you don't have an ac5 doing the same damage output as a gauss rifle in the same time. Cooldown on the ac5 is 1.66 X 3= 4.98 Gauss is 5. 5X3 =15 1X15 =15. The recycle time could also be increased to 10 for all weapons giving the mechs more time to cool down. This will also make pilots take time to line up their shots. This concept has been used in games such as MechWarrior 2 , MechWarrior 3, MechWarrior 4, Battletech tabletop. But I digress. I have been playing this game for 2 years and I understand that they have to sell mechs to pay their employees salaries but at least fix the basic problems before creating new ones.

[Funkmaster Rick]

Energy draw is a significant improvement on what we have now. I want it.

[Bud Crue]

Funkmaster Rick, on 20 August 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

Energy draw is a significant improvement on what we have now. I want it.

Not sure I agree. Tested on and off with a variety of weapon combos. On the one hand the lower heat values and thresholds of the current PTS makes a lot of builds run cooler than in the regular game. When ED is added to those having 30 damage alphas (lights, some mediums, some heavies) the total play effect is that those mechs perform better on the current PTS.

Even those with higher alphas though for the most part play better as well. Can still do massive damage with a meta Bllaackk Knight build, just gotta stagger the LPLs and the ML. You did that already in the regular game through the vast majority of the game. So here too, you your mechs are going to perform as good, or even better in the PTS given the lower default heat setting.

Then there is the little issue with Gauss. A Gauss on one button and 2-3ppcs on another, gives a potential 45 pin point damage with no negative heat or energy draw consequence as long as the clicks are .5 seconds apart. Go play the PTS...this is what most people are running (hey guys! idea is to test a variety of things, not just club seals with a loop hole, ok?).

The result of the above is no real difference in Alpha strikes, but a potential decrease in TTK. I don't think that is a goal of energy draw.

As to negative performance impact of energy draw: Assaults, LRM boats, and SRM boats.

First Assaults: if an Atlas cant fire 3SRM6s and an AC20 repeatedly then there is not much point to playing it: Fire off AC20, twist, fire off 2 SRMs, twist, fire off 1 SRM, twist...really? Mixed, and low number hardpoint Assaults like the Atlas, Victor, Highlander, etc. are really hurt by this system.

Same with LRMs and SRMs. A Catapult A1 with 6 srm-4 or 6. Chain fire groups of 2? Yuck. It was a tough mech to play before, but with that as a requirement, it is useless. Your Archer with a bunch of LRM5s? Gotta chain fire, since group fire won't be much of an option. Once folks figure that out, AMS isn't just a good defensive measure, it is a defacto eliminator of LRM5 boats.

All in all I think Energy Draw has potential, but in its current form it is most certainly NOT a "significant improvement" over what we currently have.

[Johnny Z]

Bud Crue, on 20 August 2016 - 01:44 PM, said:

Not sure I agree. Tested on and off with a variety of weapon combos. On the one hand the lower heat values and thresholds of the current PTS makes a lot of builds run cooler than in the regular game. When ED is added to those having 30 damage alphas (lights, some mediums, some heavies) the total play effect is that those mechs perform better on the current PTS.

Even those with higher alphas though for the most part play better as well. Can still do massive damage with a meta Bllaackk Knight build, just gotta stagger the LPLs and the ML. You did that already in the regular game through the vast majority of the game. So here too, you your mechs are going to perform as good, or even better in the PTS given the lower default heat setting.

Then there is the little issue with Gauss. A Gauss on one button and 2-3ppcs on another, gives a potential 45 pin point damage with no negative heat or energy draw consequence as long as the clicks are .5 seconds apart. Go play the PTS...this is what most people are running (hey guys! idea is to test a variety of things, not just club seals with a loop hole, ok?).

The result of the above is no real difference in Alpha strikes, but a potential decrease in TTK. I don't think that is a goal of energy draw.

As to negative performance impact of energy draw: Assaults, LRM boats, and SRM boats.

First Assaults: if an Atlas cant fire 3SRM6s and an AC20 repeatedly then there is not much point to playing it: Fire off AC20, twist, fire off 2 SRMs, twist, fire off 1 SRM, twist...really? Mixed, and low number hardpoint Assaults like the Atlas, Victor, Highlander, etc. are really hurt by this system.

Same with LRMs and SRMs. A Catapult A1 with 6 srm-4 or 6. Chain fire groups of 2? Yuck. It was a tough mech to play before, but with that as a requirement, it is useless. Your Archer with a bunch of LRM5s? Gotta chain fire, since group fire won't be much of an option. Once folks figure that out, AMS isn't just a good defensive measure, it is a defacto eliminator of LRM5 boats.

All in all I think Energy Draw has potential, but in its current form it is most certainly NOT a "significant improvement" over what we currently have.

yep.

1 thing though 30 is fine for assaults with the minor heat penalty. Better if it goes down from 30 for lighter weights than jacking the heat penalty.

Edited by Johnny Z, 20 August 2016 - 04:33 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Funkmaster Rick, on 20 August 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

Energy draw is a significant improvement on what we have now. I want it.

Yeah, did you test it?

Less variety and more boating than on the live server. Are you sure you actually played the PTS?

[Scout Derek]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 August 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

Yeah, did you test it?

Less variety and more boating than on the live server. Are you sure you actually played the PTS?

Who knows if he did. I sure don't know.



Anyhow, we have yet to see if PGI takes any action on adjusting it afterwards.

[Y E O N N E]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 August 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

Yeah, did you test it?

Less variety and more boating than on the live server. Are you sure you actually played the PTS?

While I don't care for the homogeneity, I love that I can now use triple PPC. It was always stupid that you couldn't, given LPL can stack 3 deep despite being de facto FLD.

[AnTi90d]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 August 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

While I don't care for the homogeneity, I love that I can now use triple PPC. It was always stupid that you couldn't, given LPL can stack 3 deep despite being de facto FLD.

Lasers are not Front Loaded Damage.. PPCs / IS ACs / Gauss are Front Loaded Damage.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 August 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

While I don't care for the homogeneity, I love that I can now use triple PPC.

Honestly they could just redo some of the limits and penalties of ghost heat 1.0 and I would be ok.

[Johnny Z]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 August 2016 - 05:08 PM, said:

Honestly they could just redo some of the limits and penalties of ghost heat 1.0 and I would be ok.

I have said this a few times on this topic lately because it has only recently come to light. Heat cant do what power draw can do because shutting down all match isn't cool. Just upping heat penalty and shutting everyone down just wont work in a real time multi player sim.

Energy draw can do all the thing that heat can do, but better and leaves room for new additions, meanwhile leaving heat shutdown in tact.

Heat is cool but making it brutal to add things like mech slow down or truly limiting super high alphas just wouldn't work.

Power draw was to complicated for a table top game is why it wasn't included. Heat meanwhile is an excellent mechanic for the simulation and shutting down adds risk to game play so its all good to.

Edited by Johnny Z, 20 August 2016 - 05:18 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 August 2016 - 05:08 PM, said:

Honestly they could just redo some of the limits and penalties of ghost heat 1.0 and I would be ok.

B-b-b-but what about a Triple ER PPC, Dual Gauss Dire/KDK???

In all honesty they could raise the cLPL/cERLL limit to 3, but somehow tie them together with ER MLs, so you can't fire more than 6 lasers at once or something.

[AnTi90d]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 August 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

B-b-b-but what about a Triple ER PPC, Dual Gauss Dire/KDK???

In all honesty they could raise the cLPL/cERLL limit to 3, but somehow tie them together with ER MLs, so you can't fire more than 6 lasers at once or something.

I think linking more weapons together would provide more build diversity and would work better, overall.

Allow 3 (IS or C) large class lasers, penalty free.. but treat all medium class lasers as 0.5 of a large laser.

Then, you could run 3LL.. 2LL-2ML.. 1LL-4ML.. 6ML.. all without penalty.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Johnny Z, on 20 August 2016 - 05:13 PM, said:

I have said this a few times on this topic lately because it has only recently come to light. Heat cant do what power draw can do because shutting down all match isn't cool. Just upping heat penalty and shutting everyone down just wont work in a real time multi player sim.

You realize that is what is going to happen with power draw if certain people get their say on it right? People didn't want energy draw to be less punishing than ghost heat, they wanted it to be more punishing.

[DeerslayerUA]

Hell no!

1. Like we need this second bar to watch for.
2. 20 energy in 1 second? - first request would be to split it in 2 energy per 100ms! Rest assured.
3. Why in the world we need that energy draw concept? Why cant PGI count the balance and implement changes, but not add anything new? If there is problem with some setups, which someone think overpowered - just make balance adjustments.
4. RIP brawl, probably.

I would say fixing collisions and buildings would make more players happier. Adding new game types would make it better too. Like adding FP scouting, which is good as first try, but needs changes. FP should be focused more. Menus, overall UI.

[Gaden Phoenix]

I am all for Energy Draw, and the removal of Ghost Heat. I think ED is a more fair system all round, while Ghost Heat pushes people to break it.

From my testing ED currently runs too cool. I would say increase the heat generated from going beyond the 30 ED points (punish the breach of threshold more).

And also tie amount of ED points you have to the engine value with weight class as a consideration will more Mech Labs more interesting and would allow some interesting trade offs.

The range of the weapon should play a part too in ED values.

Edited by Gaden Phoenix, 22 August 2016 - 03:47 AM.

[DeerslayerUA]

Hell No.
Better think of something new with new balance.

[Bud Crue]

ZveroboyUA, on 27 December 2016 - 05:18 AM, said:

Hell No.
Better think of something new with new balance.

You necroed a thread from August, for that? If you had to hunt for this thread you probably found the others wherein ED was pulled no?