376 replies to this topic

[Gorgo7]

So we can expect power draw in November 2020?

[Andi Nagasia]

WarZ, on 16 June 2016 - 01:22 PM, said:

Wait so why is it even called power draw if its just a tweak to the existing ghost heat system (which based on what you described, thats all it is) ?

It is just another example of how PGI can no longer even develop / effectively write new code for their own game. They lost that ability with the people who have left. This isn't power draw, there is no new system. It's just ghost heat with reworked #'s.

Um no its not Just Ghost heat,
Ghost heat is Limiting the Number of weapons Fired to Curb Possible Damage,
Power Draw puts a Limit on Alphas so Exceeding a set amount(30) will cause more heat to build up,

AssaultPig, on 16 June 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

if range/spread/etc isn't taken into account along with firepower this'll just push the game farther toward long-range sniping than it already is

you'd think this would be an obvious point but with PGI at this point I'm making no assumptions

Russ has said the System is Designed to be able to reduce the Draw of some weapons(LBX),
as he stated it could be Easily done, im assuming the system was designed with this in mind,

Gorgo7, on 16 June 2016 - 05:24 PM, said:

So we can expect power draw in November 2020?

Most likely,

[Wintersdark]

Inyc, on 15 June 2016 - 10:20 PM, said:

Why always heat? Why not converge?

Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to have convergence broaden the more damage output in a single multi-weapon shot?

Meaning over a certain damage cap (say 20) any multi-weapon shot has more and more convergence spread instead of being all pin-point.

That way you keep the skill of good aim in the game, you even increase it by requiring you to keep your aim on target. You give a reason to have chain fire (especially if you let players set the chain fire interval).

And you fix the high alpha pin point issue of the game.

I swear I've seen posts about this years ago.

There's been lots of posts about this, and PGI has answered.

It's because there are serious issues with netcode, HSR, and convergence. That is, convergence needs to be determined client side, but firing and hitting are controlled server side, and HSR (remember, host state rewind) is wholly server side.

We used to have delayed convergence (see: Pinpoint pilot skill) and that had to be removed for HSR to be implemented. Convergence needs to be on a fixed point (under crosshairs) so the server can know where the convergence point is when it rolls back time to account for lag and such. With variable convergence, that becomes much more complicated, potentially leading to substantial hit registration issues. And before some genius says "Durr hurr, hit reg is already bad!" this would make it much worse.

Those problems are not unsolvable, but they mean any suggestion along convergence lines is decidedly non-simple, and would require substantial live testing to find the bugs, while we as a playerbase have shown very little interest in putting much effort into legitimately testing things on the test server. These are the sorts of bugs that end up being long term problems that often go undetected for ages.

So, yeah, convergence modifying ideas have a huge development cost. It's unlikely ANYTHING will change with convergence until, perhaps, there's an engine upgrade.

[EgoSlayer]

Andi Nagasia, on 16 June 2016 - 07:18 PM, said:

Um no its not Just Ghost heat,
Ghost heat is Limiting the Number of weapons Fired to Curb Possible Damage,
Power Draw puts a Limit on Alphas so Exceeding a set amount(30) will cause more heat to build up,

Really it is just Ghost Heat 2.0.

Ghost heat limits damage output by specific number of weapons with some weapons applying to multiple groups (e.g. LL, ER LL, LPL all same group). Use weapons that are not in the same groups and you can bypass/work around the system.

Ghost heat 2.0 removes the specific number of weapons and weapons groups and all weapons apply to the damage output. Since all weapons count to the limit, there is no way to bypass or work around the system.

You can try and spin it as something more advanced, but it's really not. It's Ghost Heat without the limited linked groups - everything is in a GH linked group.

[Wintersdark]

EgoSlayer, on 16 June 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

Really it is just Ghost Heat 2.0.

Ghost heat limits damage output by specific number of weapons with some weapons applying to multiple groups (e.g. LL, ER LL, LPL all same group). Use weapons that are not in the same groups and you can bypass/work around the system.

Ghost heat 2.0 removes the specific number of weapons and weapons groups and all weapons apply to the damage output. Since all weapons count to the limit, there is no way to bypass or work around the system.

You can try and spin it as something more advanced, but it's really not. It's Ghost Heat without the limited linked groups - everything is in a GH linked group.

Yeah, it's Ghost Heat 2.0, but that's a Ghost Heat with the worst and most confusing aspects stripped out, as well as the loopholes.

Is it an amazing wholly new thing? No. But it sure sounds like it'll be a LOT better than the current Ghost Heat, which is incredibly complicated, difficult to explain to new users, and basically a huge newbie trap, all the while being wholly ineffective at it's stated purpose (beyond preventing massed PPC fire, anyways)

[Steel Claws]

While I have no issues with alphas, if they are going to do this at least do it right. There needs to be an adjustment for mech tonnage. smaller mechs should have less ability to alpha than a bigger mech - it's simple physics. Currently some lights run cooler than heavies and assaults shooting the same weapons and that is just so wrong. It would also go a long way toward balancing SRM jenners and small pulse cheatahs. Lights should not be able to deliver the alphas they currently can. The sacrifice for speed is firepower.

Edited by Steel Claws, 16 June 2016 - 08:29 PM.

[smokytehbear]

EgoSlayer, on 16 June 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

Really it is just Ghost Heat 2.0.

Ghost heat limits damage output by specific number of weapons with some weapons applying to multiple groups (e.g. LL, ER LL, LPL all same group). Use weapons that are not in the same groups and you can bypass/work around the system.

Ghost heat 2.0 removes the specific number of weapons and weapons groups and all weapons apply to the damage output. Since all weapons count to the limit, there is no way to bypass or work around the system.

You can try and spin it as something more advanced, but it's really not. It's Ghost Heat without the limited linked groups - everything is in a GH linked group.

Except maybe they shouldn't be? I don't see how this curbs a thing. It's already been beaten to death in this thread, but why would a flat truncation to the instantaneous damage you can do with lasers (a relatively poor DPS, DPS/H weapon categorically) do anything except fling the pendulum in the opposite direction? You'll just see black widows everywhere instead of black knights, all amidst the din of angry cries of "P2W!".

Is the game truly that imbalanced right now? I see plenty of all types of weapons. Big name teams win all the time with combos of just about everything except maybe flamers and lrms. Lasers might be the staple, but gauss works, ballistics work, and SRMs are extremely punishing in the right situation. Why change something enormous and fundamental to the game and gimp the primary reason to use a specific weapon type (the upfront, focused damage of lasers)?

Even if I'm totally wrong here and they justifiably do need a nerf, why do it with a huge ridiculous system to counteract and splint a simple issue? If lasers do too much damage, reduce it. Too much range? Reduce it. Too cold? Make them hotter. Ghost heat already sucks because as everyone's said it's so non-intuitive. This really isn't too different in that regard. The current approach is resembling Calvin's right now:

http://www.gocomics....bbes/1986/06/12

kapusta11, on 15 June 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

Looking for simple solutions to a complex problem is a sign of cognitive bias, did you know that?

...Really? I thought it was a sign of intelligence. I think you might be confusing yourself with the opposite of Occam's Razor or something, somehow.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gorgo7, on 16 June 2016 - 05:24 PM, said:

So we can expect power draw in November 2020?

That would be nice. I'll probably have kids by then and won't have time for MechWarrior anyway, so if people want it to burn at that point, go for it.

[Lehmund]

CK16, on 14 June 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

How about limiting alpha size to Engine size or mech tonnage/class.

Aka light mechs can't alpha huge numbers often

Assaults could more reliable do a larger alpha...

I was thinking the same thing, but doesn't need to be around Alpha size but more about the regeneration of your Power recovering faster based on Tonnage (not engine IMO). That makes your Assaults massive weapons platforms that can tank well and have an assortment of weaponry at its disposal and lights a lot more like flankers and hit-and-run mechs. Meds and Heavies would be in-between.

Makes sense to me. Means you can field your 12-man DW as a wall of armor that can constantly fire weapons, but with limited Alphas (more damage over time / dps min/maxing), but the lights can still run behind them and pot shot decent alphas at their backs before the DW can turn around and face them.

I suspect, if done this way, we'll be able to do away with much of the crazy Assault mech agility quirks I've seen in some of them to make assaults tankier. Keep each weight class to their niche is good for the game.

[Lehmund]

Rouken Vordermark, on 15 June 2016 - 06:32 AM, said:

What are the chances they have spent all this time focusing on high alpha and completely forgot to account for DPS weapons?

DPS weapons are not the problem. It'll make other weapons like lasers fired in groups feel more like dps machines though since you'll have to fire the groups in sequence instead of super high alphas (though I presume high initial alphas will still be valid, at the cost of all your heat possibly), hence you would need more time to cool down between every Alpha shot (a lot more).

Alphas are not removed from the game, just would need to be dealt differently.

We'll see a lot more facetime mechs like the DPS type, or the laser vomit type as facetime to maximize DPS, which means on FW groups roaming will be firing different weapon groups every where instead of alpha-ing around. It'll make fights interesting IMO, with the odd mech that specializes in the Alpha then 15 sec cooldown time behind the hill tactic.

[Galenit]

It will be nothing expected in this topic,
it will be nothing that can be explained by logics,
in the end, we will have a system noone here ever thought about.

And then will will do our collective facepalm together, again.

[Lily from animove]

Lehmund, on 17 June 2016 - 04:11 AM, said:

DPS weapons are not the problem. It'll make other weapons like lasers fired in groups feel more like dps machines though since you'll have to fire the groups in sequence instead of super high alphas (though I presume high initial alphas will still be valid, at the cost of all your heat possibly), hence you would need more time to cool down between every Alpha shot (a lot more).

Alphas are not removed from the game, just would need to be dealt differently.

We'll see a lot more facetime mechs like the DPS type, or the laser vomit type as facetime to maximize DPS, which means on FW groups roaming will be firing different weapon groups every where instead of alpha-ing around. It'll make fights interesting IMO, with the odd mech that specializes in the Alpha then 15 sec cooldown time behind the hill tactic.

the issue is lasers already spread, the idea of russ will amke them even more bad, while spamsystems like srm's and Ac's still work as before.

And mostly the medium mechs which are already so awesomely OP will really thank for having more facetime to finally make the game more fair for all their laserdepend loadouts.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

What I like about the plans for the power draw is that it may make mixed builds more viable - limited ability to alpha super high damages will make builds like 6xml + some lurms to be more viable. You can shoot lurms while in cover and also shoot MLs while peeking. Now it's not really usefull mainly bacause if you peek with 30dmg alpha in such build, you are guaranteed to face bigger alphas going your way = bad trade, no point in peeking, better make a LRM boat or laser boat and shoot everything at once.

OR you could mix weapons that does not work that well together now due to not synergising perfectly (like long duration lasers and srms), because you will be able to aim and shoot them separately while not being in clear disadvantage figting those who boat only synergising weapons (because their current advantage is that they can alpha you with one click and all dmg will go to the same spot). Everybody will have to aim twice and shoot twice to do a big alpha, thus weapon synergy will not be THAT important anymore.

All in all, power draw seems to be a ghost heat 2.0 without the loopholes and with more viable mixed builds. Fine by me.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 17 June 2016 - 04:32 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Lily from animove, on 17 June 2016 - 04:20 AM, said:

the issue is lasers already spread, the idea of russ will amke them even more bad, while spamsystems like srm's and Ac's still work as before.

And mostly the medium mechs which are already so awesomely OP will really thank for having more facetime to finally make the game more fair for all their laserdepend loadouts.

SRMs and ACs will still be effected by power Draw,
all weapons not just Energy Weapons,

[ScarecrowES]

Russ talked quite a bit about energy draw during the townhall tonight. One thing we can say, for sure, is whatever they have planned, it's NOTHING like what many people on the forums are thinking.

[Raiyuken]

Depending on the incremental increase past 30 alpha, some weapons will once again be obsolete while other be brought up. And with this change chain-firing will be more of a thing during brawling whereas riding the 30-40 alpha for peekaboos/sniping.

As a given, 3x PPCs will be back and I do mean you will see them quite alt. 4x PPC will be very possible for AWS-8Q and manageable heat to boot. Not sure if 5x PPC can be fire without instant shutdown but that is a food for thought.

What we will see here is weapon groups being sorted and fired in 30-40 alpha groups. 3-4x PPC, 2x PPC + Gauss, 5-6x MLPs, 3x LPLs.

The configuration that got hit the hardest from this new system? Small/Medium Laser boating which was slot/weight/heat effective. But what I think most people worry about is how much will this change affect everyone's gameplay in it's current state?

I'd firmly say, almost 90% of the population would have to revisit their mech-bays for anything that wasn't chain-fire. Any mech with 6+ Energy hardpoint will no longer be viable, with 3-5 being optimal based off tonnage. Ballistics will be 2,3,4,6 hardpoint to be effective also depending on tonnage, but let's face it 6 is unrealistic and 4 is only possible with assaults.
Streak/SRMs grouped in more than 17-18 volley is the maximum one could go, 20-22 if the LBX rule applies for it too.

And back to the Clan/IS power struggle, who suffers the most out of this change? Clans. Because they have stronger weapons in terms of damage but this system limits them from unleashing that damage, whereas IS with armor quirks are able to stand toe to toe longer. To make things simple it is like everyone is being issued 9mm handguns while one team has kevlar and the other a flak jacket only.

All in all you have EVERY reason to fear this new heat change as it would spell the complete fall of game balance between IS/Clan mechs. The new system does not justify Clan's longer burn time anymore or the rapid fire ACs.

[Gas Guzzler]

ScarecrowES, on 17 June 2016 - 08:16 PM, said:

Russ talked quite a bit about energy draw during the townhall tonight. One thing we can say, for sure, is whatever they have planned, it's NOTHING like what many people on the forums are thinking.

Its ghost heat that considers total damage done instead of number of a certain weapon. That's all they have discussed, with the possibility of heat scale punishments when you run hot in the DISTANT future.

[Lily from animove]

Andi Nagasia, on 17 June 2016 - 08:04 PM, said:

SRMs and ACs will still be effected by power Draw,
all weapons not just Energy Weapons,

they stil work as before, if you doubt that then you probably don't know how you would use them in the new system. you fire srm's and Ac's and they are gone, lasers need facetime and when you have to chain them they need even more facetime. the change does not equally affect these wepaons. When I jump shoot i cna easily get off 2 volleys of srm's however a set of lasers followed by another would make most of the second volley be in the landscape.

[Temuedschin40]

I'm kinda surprised that we've got over a 100 posts in here and nobody really focused on the good old brawlers yet, so I'm gonna do that right now.^^
In general, I'm fine with the power draw system, at least the ideas coming up. It'd need some adjustments though because there are mechs which are totally focused on their big alphas.

So lets look at some examples here:
1. AS7-S w/ AC20 4 SRM6s = 71.6 dmg, which would generate massive extra heat in the power draw system. To not get penalized you'd have to split your weapons into 3 groups under 30 dmg: AC20, 2 SRM6s, 2 SRM6s. Since those groups have to be fired at a 0.5 sec delay, your facetime would increase by 1 second, which is a pretty big deal for a mech that has to shield effectively, especially in one that gets focused out quickly anyway.

2. Spirit Bear w/ LBX20 4 SRM6s 2 SPL = 80 dmg, meaning you'd have to set up 3-4 groups, depending on how much you care about some extra heat So you got the same problem as the Atlas above.

and to not focus on the big guys, let's go down to the "smaller" brawlers:
3. the CN9s: CN9-AH w/ AC20 3 SRM4s = 45.8 dmg, means 2 weapon groups

4. SHD-2D2 w/ AC10 4 SRM4s = 44.4 dmg = at least 2 groups
you could do this all day long, also for SRM-based brawlers (e.g. Griffin, Kintaro, Mad Dog) but I think you got my point.

So to let the guys (including me ) wanting to melt enemy faces off on close range continue doing their work. my suggestion would be to combine ghost heat and power draw. So I came up with 2 ideas:

1) Use the power draw system on energy and ballistic weapons, so that laserboats (blacky comes to mind) and ballistic boats (e.g. 5 AC5 Mauler) get penalized for alphaing, but keep using the ghost heat system on missile weapons to deny extreme SRM or LRM boats their alpha. That would mean that all energy and ballistic dmg breaking the 30 dmg cap gets penalized, but like 4 ERMLs (28 dmg) can be fired together with 4 SRM6s (48 dmg) without triggering any of the extra-heat systems. Same would go for the brawler examples i gave above (except for the Spirit Bear because his non-missile dmg is slightly over with 32).

2) Give brawl-based mechs (e.g AS7-D-DC and -S) quirks which raise their max-dmg cap to make those alphas not trigger the power draw system.

Of those 2 ideas, the first one is totally my favorite. It's harder to program (and to understand ) I guess, but the second idea is tough to use since telling if a mech is mostly used for brawling isn't really possible (hell, I've seen stuff like CN9-AHs w/ 1 LRM20 and 1 LRM15).

So there's my take on the power draw system, but since it isn't nearly finished or even publicly tested yet, we shall see what they're doing with it, so saying it's **** or anything without even knowing what EXACTLY it'll be is just a waste of time. Just my opinion, but I'm just a random dude playing this game, basically

[Andi Nagasia]

@Temuedschin40
as Russ has started Power Draw can be tweeked on a weapon by weapon Bases,
so a Problem AC5 could have its Draw increased from 5(5x6=30) to 7(7x4=28) to Curb Boating,

Russ also Says that Weapons like LBX SRMs and LRMs can be made to have Reduced Draw,
so a SRM6 may have a Draw of 10, if so then you could Effectivly Fire 3 at a time,

going back to your Examples

Temuedschin40, on 18 June 2016 - 06:18 AM, said:

1. AS7-S w/ AC20 4 SRM6s = 71.6 dmg, which would generate massive extra heat in the power draw system. To not get penalized you'd have to split your weapons into 3 groups under 30 dmg: AC20, 2 SRM6s, 2 SRM6s. Since those groups have to be fired at a 0.5 sec delay, your facetime would increase by 1 second, which is a pretty big deal for a mech that has to shield effectively, especially in one that gets focused out quickly anyway.

with SRM6 counting for only 10 Draw you would be able to Fire(1AC20+1SRM6) then(3SRM6s)
this would reduce your 3 Shots to only having to Fire 2 Shots saving some Face time,

Temuedschin40, on 18 June 2016 - 06:18 AM, said:

1) Use the power draw system on energy and ballistic weapons, so that laserboats (blacky comes to mind) and ballistic boats (e.g. 5 AC5 Mauler) get penalized for alphaing, but keep using the ghost heat system on missile weapons to deny extreme SRM or LRM boats their alpha.

in this case a at 7 Draw per AC5, a Mauler could only take 4AC5s or its Risks, more heat,
in this way the System can be Fine Tuned to Prevent Boating,

Reducing Power Draw on some weapons would also allow for
assuming LBX and LRMs Draw is Reduced by 25%, you could fire 2LBX20s or 2LRM20s,
Nether is Considered OP, and this could also be used to help weaker weapons(AC2)