425 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Lots of arguing about this. Some are fine with current TTK, some hate it. Some point out "1v1 it's fine" (mostly), the problem being that we seldom get 1v1 fights....but a lot of focus fire.

To counter that...PGI decided to Double Armor early in closed Beta. And as power creep came in, aided and abetted by the easiest targeting system in any shooter I've ever played.... TTK continues to plummet, and PGI keeps looking at "outside the box" fixes to limit damage... all the while buffing armor and structure more and more.... which may help in big fights for focus fire.... but then leaves it silly when you do get the drop on a lone mech so often, as you try to chip through huge layers of Quirk padding.

Here's the thing. Even if one removes the "random Hit Assignment Table" which is a core of the TT game, the simple act of hitting another moving robot was not easy. Even with elite skilled warriors, you missed 2/3 of the time or more, especially against fast/jumpy opponents and/or if you were also the fast jumpy one.

To demonstrate:

I've mapped out your basic combat modifiers on multiple threads in the past.

Assuming one was Natasha frikking Kerensky with a 0 base Gunnery Target:
Running: +2 modifier
Opponent Movement: (we'll let it be a big fat assault) 4-6 hexes +2
Partial cover: +1
Medium Range: +2

so that, which is a very average, normal encounter in MWO, is a 7 pt to hit modifier, on 2d6, where the hit then is randomly determined. And if it was against a running Light? +4, not 2. Intervening terrrain (which includes your own cover)? another +1 minimum. Long range? +4 instead of +2. Jumping? +3 if you are doing it, and another +1 if opponent.

So to hit a Jumping Light, at long range, over cover? +10 before your own movement and any other intervening terrain is added.

So an ELITE warrior would need a 10 on 2d6 to hit that Light.

Mind you am I stumping "for dice and RNG heraderp" like people always fall back on when immersive targeting is mentioned?

No. But I am pointing out that for the flavor and feel of this game, it is entirely too easy, and more to the point to hit exactly where you want, repeatedly. With a better, more believable firing mechanic and functional heatscale (which none of my to hits above factored, but DOES actually matter in TT) we probably could be running stock TT armor values, not this Doubled + Uber Quirked Structures just to vaguely survive.

Simple fact is, a less easily precise form of targeting is exactly what Battltech is supposed ot be built around, with a much more constraining and Heatscale that actualyl impacted your actions BEFORE shutdown, with your targeting and movement being hampered, your ammo running a chance of cooking off if you ran too hot, too long, or even shut down before hitting your threshold.

You want to "fix" TTK? "Skill" folk need to get over their revulsion to limited situational CoF mechanics, and we need a revamped heatscale and affects ( and BTW, we HAD heat that affected targeting in early CB, as well as ammo cookoffs. I don't recall if we had movement affected or not though, been 4 years)

Otherwise, all you can expect is more of the same, and convoluted "fixes" like Ghost Heat, Power Draw, Gauss DeSync and Charge Up, etc. Mind you, I don't actually see it being realistic to see these things happen this far down the rabbit hole.. but if people want to point fingers at what's wrong, let's actually get some perspective of the actual problems in the games base mechanics.

TLDR; In Battletech aiming was actually supposed to be hard, and your heatscale was supposed to matter.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 June 2016 - 11:20 AM.

[Mystere]

Well, PGI should cannibalize their "full laser damage on lock" code and turn it into "convergence on lock" for all weapons. The latter is what many asked for, not the former. Something was obviously "lost in translation" when they started developing it.

Of course I'd rather get the delayed convergence mechanic of the closed beta days. But, I think their potato servers cannot handle it.

Edited by Mystere, 14 June 2016 - 11:28 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

TLDR; In Battletech aiming was actually supposed to be hard, and your heatscale was supposed to matter.

MechWarrior is a PC game where you put your reticle on an enemy and fire. Always has been, since MW2 anyway.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 14 June 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

Well, PGI should cannibalize their "full laser damage on lock" code and turn it into "convergence on lock" for all weapons. The latter is what many asked for, not the former. Something was obviously "lost in translation" when they started developing it.

The problem with that, I will state again for the 50th some odd time, convergence on lock hurts mechs that are already bad more than it does meta mechs, because clustered hardpoints are already really nice, and forcing locks for nice clean convergence only further emphasizes the importance of those clustered hardpoints.

Messing with convergence other than ADDING to current functionality like the ability to converge on locked targets rather than reticle would only exacerbate chassis balance. Mechs like the Nova, King Crab, and Executioner would suffer more than they already do.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 June 2016 - 11:31 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mystere, on 14 June 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

Well, PGI should cannibalize their "full laser damage on lock" code and turn it into "convergence on lock" for all weapons. The latter is what many asked for, not the former. Something was obviously "lost in translation" when they started developing it.

Yup. Honestly after taking time off from here to play other shooters and WoWs, WoT etc, it astounds me how simple and easy our aiming is here. And a number of those games do take into account "hit locations and modules" too.

Even without the Penetration Factor and Angling, just the base aiming circle from WoT (though a much more refined and smaller one, as WoT is too inaccurate, befitting the era) would do wonders for immersion and TTK. While actually enhancing certain skill sets (at the expense of twitch aiming, which is why it will never happen) would have made a better starting point and likely obviated the need to double armor in the first place.

*shrugs*

Ain't gonna happen though.

Gas Guzzler, on 14 June 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

MechWarrior is a PC game where you put your reticle on an enemy and fire. Always has been, since MW2 anyway.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious GG. And why MW has always had relatively bad TTK issues in PvP formats.

Now mind you the original idea (long since abandoned) was to be as close to TT as possible without dice.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 June 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

The problem with that, I will state again for the 50th some odd time, convergence on lock hurts mechs that are already bad more than it does meta mechs, because clustered hardpoints are already really nice, and forcing locks for nice clean convergence only further emphasizes the importance of those clustered hardpoints.

Messing with convergence other than ADDING to current functionality like the ability to converge on locked targets rather than reticle would only exacerbate chassis balance. Mechs like the Nova, King Crab, and Executioner would suffer more than they already do.

Sad but True.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

And why MW has always had relatively bad TTK issues in PvP formats.

Relatively to what though, WoT or some other game, or just the idea we had in our heads for this game?

I'm ok with TTK not being the same as TT, the amount of times I have needed 5/6s for a hit and missed 75% of my shots is incredibly infuriating.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 June 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

Relatively to what though, WoT or some other game, or just the idea we had in our heads for this game?

I'm ok with TTK not being the same as TT, the amount of times I have needed 5/6s for a hit and missed 75% of my shots is incredibly infuriating.

Agreed, it shouldn't be as hard as TT to actualyl land a shot, but making it a tad more difficult ot be uber precise with shots, especially while overheating, at super long range, jumping, both you and target at full sprint?

That would not be all bad, would it?

[MechPorn]

An easy fix is to make shoulder, head and center torso weapons fire straight ahead. The arms can be aimed though like now. If you fire more than two weapon systems in the arms, they shake, spreading the damage.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

Agreed, it shouldn't be as hard as TT to actualyl land a shot, but making it a tad more difficult ot be uber precise with shots, especially while overheating, at super long range, jumping, both you and target at full sprint?

That would not be all bad, would it?

I don't know, with those kiss-of-death Jenners running around, being able to land that shot is the difference between me walking around like I own the place because my counter is no longer running around and me running around constantly watching for seismic signals .

To me the problem isn't necessarily alphas, but absurdly high alphas/bursts not so much the pinpoint nature. Maybe if it is small enough in nature, just to help lighter chassis rotate damage, I would maybe be ok with it, but I think being able to run-n-gun to a degree is important because otherwise it only incentivizes the more "trench warfare" approach that poke fights tend to behave like. Shooting while moving is important to push/pressure strats that things like dakka like to use. I don't think it should be effected by heat or movement by any significant margin if at all.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 June 2016 - 11:46 AM.

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 June 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

The problem with that, I will state again for the 50th some odd time, convergence on lock hurts mechs that are already bad more than it does meta mechs, because clustered hardpoints are already really nice, and forcing locks for nice clean convergence only further emphasizes the importance of those clustered hardpoints.

Messing with convergence other than ADDING to current functionality like the ability to converge on locked targets rather than reticle would only exacerbate chassis balance. Mechs like the Nova, King Crab, and Executioner would suffer more than they already do.

I think you missed the second part of my post:

Mystere, on 14 June 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

Of course I'd rather get the delayed convergence mechanic of the closed beta days.

That for me would be the ideal.

Also, why would the Nova suffer? I'm sure the Prime variant will not have a problem concentrating all the shots from either of its 6E arms. The same holds for the EXE-D's 7E right arm.

Also, I am quite confident a skilled player will be able to compensate while firing without locks, especially if said player was handy with trigonometry.

Edited by Mystere, 14 June 2016 - 11:46 AM.

[1453 R]

Oh my God, again with the Mexican Hat Dance targeting nonsense?!

Bishop, dude, I'd thought better of you than that. There's no such thing as 'limited situational CoF' in a game like this. In every other game with Cone of Failure, either the weapons are designed specifically with average distribution inside the CoF in mind and thusly throw enough bullets out that the average kill time is both easily calculatable and what counts (Halo, Doom, other 'old school' shooters), or the game offers multiple ways and means of mitigating Cone of Failure to ensure accurate shots (Call of Duty and other 'modern' shooters with ADS systems).

This whole idiotic "tabletop did this so we should too!" nonsense of adding a 20-degree off-bore penalty for everything from moving (how dare you try and use your feet, you barbarian!) to being above resting heat )you've fired a weapon in the last thirty seconds?! HOW DARE YOU, SIRRAH!) to firing more than one weapon (you've got TWO medium lasers?! Chainfire them, or my honor demands I gremlinize your targeting system!) to anything else one can possibly conceive of to make hitting targets in this game outside of bearhug range as close to impossible as it can possibly be just needs to stop.

Hitting your target, in a game where aiming and shooting at your enemies is the primary player interaction and reason-you're-there,should not G-D be a statistical outlier. You should not have to feel lucky and privileged that your fire hit your target if you aimed correctly in the first place. World of Tanks is an awful, putrid game that is outright painful to watch, with 'targeting reticles' that take up actual, legitimate areas larger than half the screen unless you're at a complete dead stop, AND EVEN THEN it takes several seconds for the reticle to gradually, grudgingly shrink back down to something closer to maybe a quarter of the screen, at which point you get to click, pray, and then reload the gun for forty seconds.

Why, why, why, why, why, why, WHY do people keep wanting to do that to MWO?!

Edited by 1453 R, 14 June 2016 - 11:47 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

Agreed, it shouldn't be as hard as TT to actualyl land a shot, but making it a tad more difficult ot be uber precise with shots, especially while overheating, at super long range, jumping, both you and target at full sprint?

That would not be all bad, would it?

at super long range, jumping, both you and target at full sprint?

The amount of damage I do to somebody in that situation is typically not more than 20 to 30 damage in one component anyway, maybe I'm just a terribad though.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 14 June 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:

Also, why would the Nova suffer? I'm sure the Prime variant will not have a problem concentrating all the shots from either of its 6E arms. The same holds for the EXE-D's 7E right arm.

Doesn't really help them since it means you have to clear a bit more terrain and makes things more difficult since they are far enough away from the cockpit, though the Nova and Wolverine could get away with peaking less of their mech since convergence would be centered around locks and not reticles (meaning you could poke without exposing your torso). However, those are still mechs with clustered together hardpoints (I meant more Nova's with lasers split between fists, not all on a single power fist), what about mechs like the King Crab which rarely if ever is asym loaded?

Mystere, on 14 June 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:

Also, I am quite confident a skilled player will be able to compensate while firing without locks, especially if said player was handy with trigonometry.

That's not really my concern, skilled players could pick it up I have no doubt.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 June 2016 - 11:50 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 June 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

I don't know, with those kiss-of-death Jenners running around, being able to land that shot is the difference between me walking around like I own the place because my counter is no longer running around and me running around constantly watching for seismic signals .

To me the problem isn't necessarily alphas, but absurdly high alphas/bursts not so much the pinpoint nature. Maybe if it is small enough in nature, just to help lighter chassis rotate damage, I would maybe be ok with it, but I think being able to run-n-gun to a degree is important because otherwise it only incentivizes the more "trench warfare" approach that poke fights tend to behave like. Shooting while moving is important to push/pressure strats that things like dakka like to use. I don't think it should be effected by heat or movement by any significant margin if at all.

which is why I specifically have always stated "minor" and situational. I want a running mech to still relatively land shots on target...but in these extreme scenarios have aim be more "Minute of Mech" than the sub "Minute of Angle" ease we have now. Run and Run is fine.... Run, Gun while threading a needle 1000 meters away? A little less so IMO.

[Mystere]

1453 R, on 14 June 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:

20-degree off-bore penalty

Hilarious. Please go and study more about CEP, R95, normal distributions, and all that wonderful math-heavy stuff.

Also, World of Warships.

[Marmon Rzohr]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

Yup. Honestly after taking time off from here to play other shooters and WoWs, WoT etc, it astounds me how simple and easy our aiming is here. And a number of those games do take into account "hit locations and modules" too.

Even without the Penetration Factor and Angling, just the base aiming circle from WoT (though a much more refined and smaller one, as WoT is too inaccurate, befitting the era) would do wonders for immersion and TTK. While actually enhancing certain skill sets (at the expense of twitch aiming, which is why it will never happen) would have made a better starting point and likely obviated the need to double armor in the first place.

*shrugs*

Ain't gonna happen though.

While I don't think adding RNG to MWO's aiming mechanics would ruin/harm the game, I also very much doubt it would help the game in any way. Given how fast and mobile mechs are compared to tanks in WoT and how complicated the hitboxes are RNG in MWO would be incredibly hard to balance - especially if you consider a need to balance weapons vs weapons.

Not to mention it would make matches snowball significantly harder. Especially if you implemented "heat affects aim" mechanics.

WoT style aiming befits a game with a slow pace and simplistic weapons. So in order to make cone of fire aiming/convergence over time feel good you would need to slow the game down by other means first, not just implement it into the game as it is now and assume it will make the game slow down more. In fact it would do the exact opposite - think WoT Clan Wars matches with lightly armored autoloaders - that's what you'd get.

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 14 June 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:

Oh my God, again with the Mexican Hat Dance targeting nonsense?!

Bishop, dude, I'd thought better of you than that. There's no such thing as 'limited situational CoF' in a game like this. In every other game with Cone of Failure, either the weapons are designed specifically with average distribution inside the CoF in mind and thusly throw enough bullets out that the average kill time is both easily calculatable and what counts (Halo, Doom, other 'old school' shooters), or the game offers multiple ways and means of mitigating Cone of Failure to ensure accurate shots (Call of Duty and other 'modern' shooters with ADS systems).

This whole idiotic "tabletop did this so we should too!" nonsense of adding a 20-degree off-bore penalty for everything from moving (how dare you try and use your feet, you barbarian!) to being above resting heat )you've fired a weapon in the last thirty seconds?! HOW DARE YOU, SIRRAH!) to firing more than one weapon (you've got TWO medium lasers?! Chainfire them, or my honor demands I gremlinize your targeting system!) to anything else one can possibly conceive of to make hitting targets in this game outside of bearhug range as close to impossible as it can possibly be just needs to stop.

Hitting your target, in a game where aiming and shooting at your enemies is the primary player interaction and reason-you're-there,should not G-D be a statistical outlier. You should not have to feel lucky and privileged that your fire hit your target if you aimed correctly in the first place. World of Tanks is an awful, putrid game that is outright painful to watch, with 'targeting reticles' that take up actual, legitimate areas larger than half the screen unless you're at a complete dead stop, AND EVEN THEN it takes several seconds for the reticle to gradually, grudgingly shrink back down to something closer to maybe a quarter of the screen, at which point you get to click, pray, and then reload the gun for forty seconds.

Why, why, why, why, why, why, WHY do people keep wanting to do that to MWO?!

Yup. Only not doable because you refuse to see beyond "CoF means my shots will miss" which is only rue of poorly designed ones.

And as to why? Explained in the OP. No offense, but actually drop the rage, breath a little hit a bong if need be and actualyl READ what is said. Thanks.

Mystere, on 14 June 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

Hilarious. Please go and study more about CEP, R95, normal distributions, and all that wonderful math-heavy stuff.

Also, World of Warships.

which is actually a very awesome game with awesome targeting... though not maybe 100% applicable to MWO. But still shows very well how situational, reasonable CoF and multi weapon convergence can and do work. And if designed well, work well.

Could you imagine playing it with MWO targeting? Citadel hits at 20 km, every shot.

What's truly funny is if PGI had implemented such in the first place, no one would have been spoiled by MWO aiming mechanics and there would probably be no muttering at the thought.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 June 2016 - 11:55 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2016 - 11:49 AM, said:

which is why I specifically have always stated "minor" and situational. I want a running mech to still relatively land shots on target...but in these extreme scenarios have aim be more "Minute of Mech" than the sub "Minute of Angle" ease we have now. Run and Run is fine.... Run, Gun while threading a needle 1000 meters away? A little less so IMO.

I was gonna say that threading the needle at 1000m is rarely a thing while running and gunning, but then remembered I killed a Locust a couple of days that way with 2 ERPPCs that I luckily landed on him which killed him (I'm guessing it bugged and registered on the rear). Point is, I don't think running and gunning is really a problem in this game, so trying to design this to counter the "potential" for it is a bit misplaced imo, but it also depends on how minor it is, if I'm still able to land shots on most if not all heavies if I aim center mass of their torso at a significant range that maybe I'm ok with it, but still not really a fan especially given how powerful aggressive pushes have been lately within the meta (Crayon Network being one of the few exceptions).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 June 2016 - 11:56 AM.

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 June 2016 - 11:56 AM, said:

I was gonna say that threading the needle at 1000m is rarely a thing while running and gunning, but then remembered I killed a Locust a couple of days that way with 2 ERPPCs that I luckily landed on him which killed him (I'm guessing it bugged and registered on the rear). Point is, I don't think running and gunning is really a problem in this game, so trying to design this to counter the "potential" for it is a bit misplaced imo, but it also depends on how minor it is, if I'm still able to land shots on most if not all heavies if I aim center mass of their torso at a significant range that maybe I'm ok with it, but still not really a fan.

Just for kicks, try a Summoner with 2 ERPPCs and a TC5. If you can hit a specific component at 1000m, that thing is nasty. Then do the same with a 3 ERPPC Executioner.

[Gas Guzzler]

I don't see why its a huge issue, lasers have some duration, with the exception of IS pulse lasers (maybe thats what needs a look), making spreading damage by movement possible and precise component targeting difficult if you aren't standing abreast out in the open barely moving, and projectiles have convergence issues at long range, typically when you have to lead a target, the projectiles will converge at a point beyond the person you are shooting at, so you end up hitting different components.

The issues in this game are lack of cool IW toys to play with (seriously they could take consumables to a whole new level...), different more "MechWarrior-esque" gamemodes, like escorting or DropShip Assault/Defense, and proper mech balance. And of a course, an immersive FP mode.