776 replies to this topic

[NoiseCrypt]

Alistair Winter, on 19 June 2016 - 02:04 AM, said:

Yeah, the PXH is going to be more of a challenge than I originally prepared for, Yeah, it's a smaller target when seen from the side, but:

• It has low weapon mounts, which means you have to expose a lot more of your mech to fire. Also, all weapons are in those arms (2 exceptions).
  
• It has a narrow profile from the side, but generally... I tend to engage my enemy by facing them. The narrow side profile only helps me briefly if I'm torso twisting.
  
• If you torso twist, those massive arms are going to absorb damage. Which means you lose your arms. Which means you lose your weapons. What's the point in surviving without weapons? In other words, you won't torso twist very much, and the narrow profile is not an advantage at all.

The only real advantage that I can see is the narrow legs. Because when you jump a lot (which is the one good thing about this mech) people tend to hit your legs. And especially ballistics and PPCs tend to go between narrow legs.



But overall, between the lack of hardpoints and the bad quirks and the huge profile, this is going to be MWO Nightmare mode. Better fill your belts with health potions.

EDIT: The 3d modelling team did a good job with the Phoenix Hawk, but what a terrible decision they made with the Roc's missile launchers. That looks awful. We're talking Centurion-missile launchers level awful.

I think that it will be fun, but hard work. Who doesn't love a challenge

[Clownwarlord]

Speechless at people using the wrong adjective. You are looking for taller, not bigger.

[Bud Crue]

Scale on the PH does "look" ridiculous in the OPs comparison, but as big as it is, I can't really see that its visual profile is going to be that big of a deal. For one with all those gaps and open spaces, the QQing, as PPCs and SRMs that will inevitably fail to register on the thing, is going to be epic. No, as some have posted above I think the biggest issue this thing is going to be its arm mounted hardpoints: Ya can't really shield with them on this thing (well you can, but you will lose the arms quickly and thus the arm weapons). And god forbid, those arms look like the most solid surface on the mech and they will draw fire maybe even more so than the back pack fins. Think I am going to break my vow not to sell mechs with this one: ECM variant and the masc are likely all I am going to keep.

[Sarcasm font on]: I am sure PGI will address any problems with this mech through a slow process of incremental quirks over the next 3 years wherein one variant is provided with the addition of flammer quirks; the worst overall performers have their agility and structure nerfed, and maybe a buff to one variant's RL armor just to keep us guessing. Sigh.

[Hit the Deck]

Captain Luffy, on 19 June 2016 - 03:09 AM, said:

Speechless at people using the wrong adjective. You are looking for taller, not bigger.

I want to say the same thing to Germans when they say that a person is tall in their language.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 19 June 2016 - 03:32 AM.

[Appogee]

Hit the Deck, on 19 June 2016 - 12:51 AM, said:

HBS' BattleTech won't have this scaling, hitbox distribution, or hardpoint location BS

Why not? They are licencing the Mech models from PGI.

[GreenHell]

I'm going to laugh my rear end off when the net-result of this whole rescale patch is ZERO. That's right, I'm predicting that absolutely nothing will happen. BOOM!

The same mechs will still be used and still be just as powerful as before. People will still whine and moan that their favorite didn't get the 'love it needs'.

And I'll be there, about 600m away, 75% of my mech covered by a rock, blasting people with my RFL that basically didn't change at all, and happy as a clown about it.

TL:DR- Calm down, backup, and just let things pan out for a bit. In the end, things will probably be exactly the same.

(until power-draw...)

[Chrithu]

Appogee, on 19 June 2016 - 03:35 AM, said:

Why not? They are licencing the Mech models from PGI.

Because the game is turn based combat and RNGesus will rule over what is hit and how hard, which makes it a game that will be perfectly balanced by taking over TT rules 1 to 1.
Model sizes and Hitboxes while mean nothing in that game.

Edited by Jason Parker, 19 June 2016 - 03:41 AM.

[DerMaulwurf]

Appogee, on 19 June 2016 - 03:35 AM, said:

Why not? They are licencing the Mech models from PGI.

Because it's not a fps and hit locations/lines of sight will be determined by the computer as needed by gameplay, not as defined by geometry.

[Appogee]

Jason Parker, on 19 June 2016 - 03:40 AM, said:

Because the game is turn based combat and RNGesus will rule over what is hit and how hard, which makes it a game that will be perfectly balanced by taking over TT rules 1 to 1. Model sizes and Hitboxes while mean nothing in that game.

I was thinking more about how things will appear on the battlefield. But yeah, shouldn't make a difference to Mech effectiveness.

[PhoenixFire55]

Overall ... 1 out of 10.

[Bud Crue]

GreenHell, on 19 June 2016 - 03:37 AM, said:

I'm going to laugh my rear end off when the net-result of this whole rescale patch is ZERO. That's right, I'm predicting that absolutely nothing will happen. BOOM!

The same mechs will still be used and still be just as powerful as before. People will still whine and moan that their favorite didn't get the 'love it needs'.

And I'll be there, about 600m away, 75% of my mech covered by a rock, blasting people with my RFL that basically didn't change at all, and happy as a clown about it.

TL:DR- Calm down, backup, and just let things pan out for a bit. In the end, things will probably be exactly the same.

(until power-draw...)

I think it will "affect the game" like most things do: competitive type folks will QQ about an incremental aspect of one particular mechs change in profile or scale because they can show that that changed profile gives a .0000000007% greater chance of being hit in 1 out of 7368 possible circumstances...and those sorts of changes are "HUGE at our level of play!"

The rest of us either won't notice or might occasionally think "man this mech feels a little squishier than it used to be" and try a different one. Of course it won't really be squishier, they will only think it is because they read on the forms that the comp folks now hate this mech because it is some percentage more likely to be hit due to its ginormous profile.

Meh. I am far more concerned about the quirk pass (structure and armor) than any of the scale changes.

[Dr Mlem]

Mcgral18, on 18 June 2016 - 10:16 PM, said:

Gameplay effectiveness should be a part of the rescale...

Community: "Omg these mechs aren't right at all! We need them to be correct! Use our suggested math and scientific charts!

*Favorite Mech gets bigger*

Community: "OMG these mechs should be based on performance and "feeling!"

Edited by KariLP, 19 June 2016 - 04:12 AM.

[Johnny Z]

AdetheRare, on 19 June 2016 - 01:16 AM, said:

I'm thinking from the side the catapult is much wider than the phawk, so perhaps that picture is a little deceptive being only face-on...

Calm down.

Good point, besides once that Phoenix Hawk loses both its arms and a leg it wont look larger than the 20 ton heavier Catapult.

I'm kidding. The colors are throwing the size comparison off as anyone can see.

But again on the other side, this rescale sure looks like its going to make the Catapult one of the better Inner Sphere mechs.

Edited by Johnny Z, 19 June 2016 - 04:30 AM.

[El Bandito]

I like it overall. Except for the Victor, who really needed the re-scaling, almost all the mechs that should have been touched, have been touched. Gonna be rocking my smaller Battlemaster post-patch! Poor pugs.

Edited by El Bandito, 19 June 2016 - 04:59 AM.

[oldradagast]

KariLP, on 19 June 2016 - 04:11 AM, said:

Community: "Omg these mechs aren't right at all! We need them to be correct! Use our suggested math and scientific charts!

*Favorite Mech gets bigger*

Community: "OMG these mechs should be based on performance and "feeling!"

Two points:

- Folks were mostly hoping for horribly oversized and gimped mechs to be shrunk. Admittedly, we probably should have all considered that some favorite mechs would get larger, so that's sort of on us, the community.

- Faith in PGI is the issue here. It took almost 3 years from public launch to be bothered getting the mech scale right - that's a long time to leave an obvious problem festering in a video game. Now, that issue has been fixed, but mech balance may be off even more: lights are now big targets, Zeus and Highlander are larger and even less useful, Stalker and Battlemaster are smaller and better, etc. If PGI's track record was one of quickly identifying problems and fixing them, I think most people would be fine with the changes - but that is not the case. The fear is that the imbalances created by the rescale (which needed to be done) will linger for months (or years) as so many other problems have lingered.

Edited by oldradagast, 19 June 2016 - 05:06 AM.

[oldradagast]

GreenHell, on 19 June 2016 - 03:37 AM, said:

I'm going to laugh my rear end off when the net-result of this whole rescale patch is ZERO. That's right, I'm predicting that absolutely nothing will happen. BOOM!

The same mechs will still be used and still be just as powerful as before. People will still whine and moan that their favorite didn't get the 'love it needs'.

And I'll be there, about 600m away, 75% of my mech covered by a rock, blasting people with my RFL that basically didn't change at all, and happy as a clown about it.

TL:DR- Calm down, backup, and just let things pan out for a bit. In the end, things will probably be exactly the same.

(until power-draw...)

Eh, Grasshopper and Black Knight got slammed into the dirt with these changes. They are both considerably larger and have quirk reductions, so I think their era of being useful is over. Instead, we'll be back to Thunderbolts, which are now smaller, and Stalkers and Battlemaster will still be the top energy mechs. Top dakka mechs don't appear to have changed. Clan Heavies with lower stances get a small boost, too, though that changes nothing. IS light mechs will mostly vanish from play since they are now considerably larger and easier to tear apart.

So, there will be differences, but I wouldn't consider the game play effects improvements right now; hopefully, quirks or something will balance this out.

[Pariah Devalis]

oldradagast, on 19 June 2016 - 05:06 AM, said:

Two points:

- Folks were mostly hoping for horribly oversized and gimped mechs to be shrunk. Admittedly, we probably should have all considered that some favorite mechs would get larger, so that's sort of on us, the community.

- Faith in PGI is the issue here. It took almost 3 years from public launch to be bothered getting the mech scale right - that's a long time to leave an obvious problem festering in a video game. Now, that issue has been fixed, but mech balance may be off even more: lights are now big targets, Zeus and Highlander are larger and even less useful, Stalker and Battlemaster are smaller and better, etc. If PGI's track record was one of quickly identifying problems and fixing them, I think most people would be fine with the changes - but that is not the case. The fear is that the imbalances created by the rescale (which needed to be done) will linger for months (or years) as so many other problems have lingered.

Of course the imbalances will linger for a while. Any time you make as big a change as this, there will be long lasting disruptions to what we perceive as normal. The important thing is that right now we have a basis to scale all mechs from now and to the future with accurately - or at least accurately based on the volumetric method they use. This means it should make it easier to balance mechs from here on out.

Yes, it will probably take 4 or 5 patches (at least) to get the mech quirks done right to fine tune it. However, we have an accurate baseline, now. One which does not discriminate based on tech. It's an unbiased beast.

[oldradagast]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 June 2016 - 05:12 AM, said:

Of course the imbalances will linger for a while. Any time you make as big a change as this, there will be long lasting disruptions to what we perceive as normal. The important thing is that right now we have a basis to scale all mechs from now and to the future with accurately - or at least accurately based on the volumetric method they use. This means it should make it easier to balance mechs from here on out.

Yes, it will probably take 4 or 5 patches (at least) to get the mech quirks done right to fine tune it. However, we have an accurate baseline, now. One which does not discriminate based on tech. It's an unbiased beast.

I agree, except - as I said - faith in PGI is the question here. The quirks changes made in this patch often seem random, and we're still waiting on: Pinpoint skill to do something, the Clan autocannon placeholders to be removed or corrected, IS PPC losing its crippling 90m minimum range, etc. Problems that have literally lingered for years...

[Pariah Devalis]

oldradagast, on 19 June 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

I agree, except - as I said - faith in PGI is the question here. The quirks changes made in this patch often seem random, and we're still waiting on: Pinpoint skill to do something, the Clan autocannon placeholders to be removed or corrected, IS PPC losing its crippling 90m minimum range, etc. Problems that have literally lingered for years...

I agree. I'm not going to defend PGI's idea of balance methodology, based on their history. They really should be doing more aggressive weapon tuning across the board, and how they assign quirks seems so... arbitrary. However, from a bigger picture, at this moment, before the rescale kicks in, we're at one of the most balanced states the game has been (at least regarding C vs IS balance). It seems they ... eventually go in the right direction.

This rescale just sets them up to do it a little easier.

[Weeny Machine]

NoiseCrypt, on 18 June 2016 - 06:36 AM, said:

Like voting you can't force the playe base into specific mech classes. I don't see it as a problem if pug matches are 6 heavies and 3 assaults. As long as the teams are equally tonned. On the contrary I love that light mechs probably will be the most difficult class from now on. In my opinion, the only people getting hurt are the easy mode crowd, which will probably migrate to heavies.

I can imagine that you love that lights get even more difficult to play. It is obvious you hardly play them. I mean someone who thinks the Huginn a good mech lost all creditability and on top of it celebrate his upcoming missile nerf...

You are one of the worst hypcrites on this forum

Edited by Bush Hopper, 19 June 2016 - 05:44 AM.