156 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Cathy, on 27 June 2016 - 12:32 AM, said:

There are going to be OMG he's just suggesting something from another game types, but it needs an artificial game mechanic where damage to a friendly is minimal on contact, but to people of opposing sides the damage is substantial.

I disagree. Either damage is equal or no damage at all in both circumstances..

[Jables McBarty]

"Bb-b-b-b-but Gman* tells me that the BNC-3M with all torso-mounted lazorbeams and the BLR-1G with only one arm-mounted ML are top-tier meta-mechs."

Welp, top-tier doesn't mean unbeatable. Sorry, but for every decision you make in MechWarrior there's both a benefit and a drawback.

Decision: Take an assault.
Benefit: Lots of armor, lots of weapons, ability to shred mediums and heavies.
Drawback: Very slow, dependent on other 'mechs to protect you from lights.

Decision: Mount all your weapons in the torso.
Benefit: Arms are purely for shield, strip armor to free tonnage for weapons/engines, only one reticule to worry about for targeting.
Drawback: Aiming is restricted to your torso Range-of-Movement.

So, I'm sorry, but if you take an assault with all high torso mounts, you are consciously making the decision to gimp yourself against lights.

If you are getting swarmed by locusts, then it is nobody's fault but your own.



*Read Gman's introductory paragraphs to his metamech tier lists, and beside acknowledging that he's human, he states that his tiers are based on aggregates--the "best and most consistent results"--and are not guarantees of a flawless, deathless victory.


EDIT: Formatting was f'd.

Edited by Jables McBarty, 27 June 2016 - 09:08 AM.

[Jables McBarty]

darkcyd, on 27 June 2016 - 12:06 AM, said:

Stay with team: Nobody gets a "I kill anybody over 70 tons for free unless they have help" button. The locust shouldn't either.

But you want an "I'm over 70 tons and shouldn't die to anybody of X tonnage regardless of their skill or build" card.

Okay, I'm done. I need to take a break. Clearly the counter-rage is getting to me.

Jables McBarty, on 27 June 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

So, I'm sorry, but if you take an assault with all high torso mounts, you are consciously making the decision to gimp yourself against lights.

Jesus, people, don't you understand what a "metagame" is???

If lights are impervious to assaults with high torso mounts, STOP TAKING THEM INTO MATCHES!

These 'mechs were top-tier because there was no solid counter to them. Now there is.

Learn, adapt, grow, win.

Or accept that when you take your BNC-3M into the game you are reliving the glory of a bygone era. Enjoy the nostalgia, but don't trap yourself.

[Weeny Machine]

EvilCow, on 27 June 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

The ACH and Locust are the remaining problems, the rest of the class is where it belongs, useful but not OP.

Sorry, but that was one of the dumbest statements. Several light mechs e.g. Jenner IIC, Huginn have zero agility quirks, a Wolfhound has a 5% turn rate while being larger after the patch and getting a worse movement archtype whereas mechs like the Catapult have *drumroll* Turn Rate 25%, Yaw 10% or Marauder Turn Rate 35%, Yaw 45%.

How about addressing those ridiculously bloated quirks on the heavies so that they actually act like heavies?

Hey, lights and mediums shouldn't kill heavies and assaults, right, even when those have zero situational awarness and cannot aim? *eyeroll* No worries, I am sure PGI obliges.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 27 June 2016 - 09:17 AM.

[EvilCow]

Bush Hopper, on 27 June 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

Sorry, but that was one of the dumbest statements.

For some reason I was thinking the same thing about what you just wrote, what a coincidence.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

If it's a serious concern for you...

360 radar module+ arm mounted energy weapons+free look (hold CTRL by default)=dead leg humper.

[Weeny Machine]

EvilCow, on 27 June 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

For some reason I was thinking the same thing about what you just wrote, what a coincidence.

Astonishingly you cut away my arguments while providing none of your own. Guess what I think about you?

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 27 June 2016 - 01:34 AM, said:

Mechs have never been sized for balance, not in any game.

Should the flaws and failures of the past simply be repeated for the sake of Nostalgia?

[Revis Volek]

Mcgral18, on 27 June 2016 - 12:07 AM, said:

That's my complaint with them.

Impossible to shoot, and impossible to move

They also are not taking dmg correctly right now, among other mechs.

Hotboxes IMO are junk after rescale. Lolcaust seems to the worst offender. I hit one with a gauss and scattered 3 meds across its legs in my Grid Iron and it ran away with yellow armor on its legs only. Mech is so small Gauss rounds literally cant hit one component.


Other mechs have this issue too but like i said lolcaust is worst offender.

[Darian DelFord]

Bush Hopper, on 27 June 2016 - 08:59 AM, said:

As predicted: Lights were nerfed into the ground only Locust and ACH remained...now the guns are aimed at the Locust. What is next? The ACH?

It is disgusting

Called it a while back

EvilCow, on 27 June 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

The ACH and Locust are the remaining problems, the rest of the class is where it belongs, useful but not OP.

Narcissistic Martyr, on 27 June 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

If it's a serious concern for you...

360 radar module+ arm mounted energy weapons+free look (hold CTRL by default)=dead leg humper.

Its amazing how sooooooo many people forget about this module? But I guess it does not help with the stripped off back and leg armor so I can stuff in more Arm Locked ALPHA!

[Wintersdark]

Bush Hopper, on 27 June 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

Sorry, but that was one of the dumbest statements. Several light mechs e.g. Jenner IIC, Huginn have zero agility quirks, a Wolfhound has a 5% turn rate while being larger after the patch and getting a worse movement archtype whereas mechs like the Catapult have *drumroll* Turn Rate 25%, Yaw 10% or Marauder Turn Rate 35%, Yaw 45%.

How about addressing those ridiculously bloated quirks on the heavies so that they actually act like heavies?

Well, let's see if the Requirkening (uhhh, 4? 5?) happens next patch as promised or not.

Clearly, quirks need to change now to compensate on many mechs. Locusts no longer need SuperQuirks, Novas don't need any quirks at all, Catapult quirks should change, etc. Definitely should be some significant changes.

[JediPanther]

Bush Hopper, on 27 June 2016 - 08:59 AM, said:

As predicted: Lights were nerfed into the ground only Locust and ACH remained...now the guns are aimed at the Locust. What is next? The ACH?

It is disgusting

Nerf the number one clan mech used? Never going to happen. They don't have any lights worth a dam with their ninety seven speed cap.

The locust is fine now. You find it in use including the pirate bane. When have you ever seen most variants of a light used? Oh the locust so hard to kill with its ten armor ft and rt torsos. The speed is the only thing keeping it in play not its size. I mastered the bugs long before the resize. If it were the size of any of the other lights no one would be using it. Jenner and wolfhound became like cops in a donut factory.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 27 June 2016 - 12:07 AM, said:

That's my complaint with them.

Impossible to shoot, and impossible to move

use mechs with arm weapons, problem solved.

[TercieI]

EvilCow, on 27 June 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

The ACH and Locust are the remaining problems, the rest of the class is where it belongs, useful but not OP.

If you think the other lights are fine and were OP before, this LCT would like a word with you:

Edited by TercieI, 27 June 2016 - 11:16 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Ultimax, on 27 June 2016 - 09:44 AM, said:

Should the flaws and failures of the past simply be repeated for the sake of Nostalgia?

No, but as I said, it would be impossible to do the rescale for with balance as a target. Both because PGI doesn't do balance really well overall, and because balance is a moving target, and resizing the game models has never been done before and as I've said elsewhere, the outcome was unknown. Not in terms of "bigger=worse, smaller=better", but in terms of, say, numerical amounts of performance change relative to size change, and if/where major breakpoints lie for size/performance.

I know your "Everything should have shrunk" argument. As I said before, it's a sticky one, as you're wrestling with "when do mechs stop being awesome stompy robots and become silly power armor" as a potential issue. I will say, they went very much larger than I expected overall. Much larger. I expected few mechs to grow, and was quite surprised at how many did. They should have gone smaller, yes.

But again, it doesn't matter now. It's academic. The mechs are the size they are now, and that's all there is to it.

[Rhaythe]

This thread. More proof of the growing percentage of this community that wants just Another Dumb Shooter™. At times, I truly think all dedicated assault pilots want is a wide-open empty space for them to alpha each other to bits.

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 27 June 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

No, but as I said, it would be impossible to do the rescale for with balance as a target.

It would not be impossible.

Scaling a few mechs down, and then quirking as needed would have been better than scaling nearly every mech UP and then quirking as needed.

Have you not seen that more mechs got larger, than smaller?

They are literally going in the opposite direction.


What they needed to do, if they were going to spend this much time and effort on this, was actually factor in the importance of surface area, the importance of profiles, make adjustments to their calulations based on the idiosyncrasies of mech designs.

Instead, it feels like they decided to rob Peter, Tim, John, Harry, Fred, Bill, Ted, Mike and Jim (many mechs) ... all to pay Paul (the mini-pult, the nova).

In essence, they probably had an aesthetic break point for how small the Nova & Catapult could become before it was unappealing or "too small" and then instead of taking into consideration the idiosyncracies of their design - they decided that for everything to align to the formula - then many mechs must get larger.

So in essence, they had a balance issue derived from an aesthetic factor, and decided to use a formula that created more even more balance issues to satisfy an aesthetic factor.

Wintersdark, on 27 June 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

Both because PGI doesn't do balance really well overall, and because balance is a moving target, and resizing the game models has never been done before and as I've said elsewhere, the outcome was unknown.

The outcome was unknown to people who are not knowledgable in how the game is actually played.

I promise there are plenty of players stunned that PGI could not see the outcome of this direction.

Wintersdark, on 27 June 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

Not in terms of "bigger=worse, smaller=better", but in terms of, say, numerical amounts of performance change relative to size change, and if/where major breakpoints lie for size/performance.

You don't err on the side of negative impact, instead of on the side of positive impact because you don't know the performance change relative to the size change.



You're right though, this is the dump that we got and are likely stuck with.

Edited by Ultimax, 27 June 2016 - 11:39 AM.

[VanguardMk1]

I just encountered a Locust with his Butterbee pal. My Kodiak-3 liked them and befriended the Butterbee quickly and legged the locust. I stared him down as he knew what was coming

all the rage from them shooting me in my rear went into that cute little thing

[Moldur]

"use streaks or something."

[3xnihilo]

Wow! A real live "Locusts are OP" thread!

So the thing is, it is mostly a perception problem. The way the game is set up, the purpose of every person in every mech is to kill as many mechs as possible. So, light mechs should be able to kill/damage on par with other weight classes. They just use speed and mobility rather than armor and massive firepower. Now, if you see an assault pull a 5 kill 750-1000 damage round, it was a good round. If a locust does it, Locusts are OP plz nerf. The truth is, it is still easier to score better in a heavy than anything else, that is why the heavy queue is so full. Lights are harder to post big scores with (thus less in queue), but they are incredibly annoying if they catch you by yourself, so they invoke much more whining.

All that said, I find assault class mechs the hardest to use in the game, so I do have a lot of respect for you guys that make them work