80 replies to this topic

[BSK]

White Bear 84, on 29 June 2016 - 07:36 PM, said:

Nope, accounted for - there are 13 segments, so you need 7 to flip (7x30 - 210 minutes), then you also have 7 counter attacks...

In fact you only need 7 attacks and 6 counter attacks, unless it gets contested.

The funny thing is, to speed this up the Long Tom was introduced but most people don't understand this ..

[Zolaz]

The problem is that FW doesnt capture the feel of large wars versus Houses. What we got now are warlords running around with small gangs. PGI needs to figure out a way to make large groups want to be part of the Houses. Allow Loyal units to capture space up to a Duchy level. Allow Loyal House units to display their Tag and a Decal on the FW map for territory they control.

If it was me I would not use the choke point base maps all the time. You should have to fight some open face skirmish style maps before you get to unlock and fight to take out a base. There just needs to be some more depth to FW than what we have right now.

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2016 - 06:54 PM, said:

One ceasefire. No wedges, just total wins over 24 hours. Every match you play is as useful and valid as every match played in NA PT. You're adding to your factions total wins and driving the meter your way.

This rewards you for playing no matter what time, your match is just as useful as the last match played.

I'm sorry but I think a planetary "invasion" won by a simple win/loss tally is several steps backwards. What CW is missing right now is a feeling of being in a campaign. We need more immersion, not less. Otherwise, PGI might as well pattern CW on the US March Madness bracket system.

[Appogee]

Matchmaking...

[Mystere]

50 50, on 30 June 2016 - 03:04 AM, said:

3. It's not a match.
I rather dislike the term match when we think about faction play. It doesn't set the right tone or frame of mind. It's not about scoreboards, points earned or damage dealt. It's not quick play or Solaris.
Make it a Battle!

^^^^^ This! A thousand times this! ^^^^^

Battles being called "matches" is a clear sign that something is already terribly wrong right from the very start.

Edited by Mystere, 30 June 2016 - 06:44 AM.

[Count Zero 74]

Zolaz, on 30 June 2016 - 06:01 AM, said:

If it was me I would not use the choke point base maps all the time. You should have to fight some open face skirmish style maps before you get to unlock and fight to take out a base. There just needs to be some more depth to FW than what we have right now.

Open face skiirmish style maps ? Ahahahahahahahaa........sry

You know what happens if you give players an "Open face" map ? You really don't, do you. Let me tell you, you'll get long range camp-fests all day long.

[Jables McBarty]

I have an honest, abstract interest in FP. I'd like to think there are many like me who want to play but don't, and this has been a thoughtful thread, so I'll explain the reasons I don't play, things I don't care about, and things I mgiht care about.

A) I don't play FP for the following reasons:

Spoiler

A1. Stale gameplay. Invasion Mode is incredibly rigid, all maps are essentially identical. It's been said before--choke-point brawls, occasional light rush, not much more. It's just not that interesting to me. In QP you can get some really interesting matches that range all over the map. Not so much in FP. Scouting helped with this--I initially really enjoyed running my Pirate's Bane to cap points and escape--but eventually was drawn back to QP.

A2. Low population and long waits. Due primarily #A1, people just don't play FP. Any time I think of queuing up, I see that attack lanes are empty and it would take me 5-30 minutes to get a match. QP never makes me wait much longer than 2 minutes. Why wait so long for what I find to be repetitive gameplay?

A3. Steep learning curve. Obviously to a large extent this is solvable only by a PGI-created tutorial of what exactly FP is and how to win it. One of the few PUG attacks I helped call ended up in a loss because one of our guys didn't know what the generators were and shot at buildings that look like power plants. And that's an honest, understandable mistake--one I made my first couple matches--but the problem only starts there. The learning curve is so steep because of reasons A1 and A2. The Invasion Mode is repetitive, meaning that it requires a degree of perfectionism to really succeed. You can only achieve the required level of skill by playing over and over and over again--something that is very difficult to do due to reason #A2. If you can't get matches, you can't learn. If you can't learn the basic tactics, you'll never find the nuances of gameplay that might make it actually competitive and interesting to you, and you'll have no enduring interest in gameplay.

B ) Things already in FP or proposed for FP that don't matter to me:

Spoiler

B1. Rewards. I don't give a flying f**k about the rewards for playing as Merc/Loyalist. To me, rewards are a nice extra, but by no means an incentive. I may represent a tiny minority of potential FPers, but I consistently see rewards touted as the downfall or solution to low FP numbers. Believe me, the only thing that will get me into FP is a solution to Problem #A1. Honestly, the fact that there was such consistent outcry among loyalists post-Phase 3 really alienated me and I'm guessing others like me. It gave the impression--however accurate or not--that the bulk of the FP crowd is an insular group that feels a sense of entitlement for playing the least-popular game mode.

B2. Planet Flipping. I'm not really concerned with how often planets flip--I DON'T EVEN FULLY UNDERSTAND HOW THIS WORKS. I've watched Kanajashi's videos and read the Google Docs guide and it's so convoluted that I refuse to waste the time to learn. All I know is that about half the time that I want to play FP, the map is dead due to a CeaseFire. So I go back to QP and forget about FP for another month.

B3. Rewards for planet ownership (Unit). I'm not in a big unit, so I'll never stand to gain from MC rewards. My impression is that raising a stink over these rewards will affect the big units only, which is the current FP playerbase. If you want to engage my demographic, leave these alone and focus on other aspects. As I state in B2, I barely understand how ownership works, and these rewards which are beyond my reach aren't sufficient incentive to learn.

B4. Rewards for planet ownership (Faction). I get that this concept is supposed to tie into a larger player-run economy, but I don't think such a feature would end up fixing the fundamental problem (A1). All it would do is grant the winning faction a steamroll modifier, causing QQ and disinterest along the lines of the Long Tom. The only thing I might see as beneficent would be certain 'mech bonuses--price discounts for purchasing or outfitting 'mechs produced on planets your faction owns (but not if you are a merc). But if planet ownership affects tactical elements of the game, forge it, I'm out--or rather, still not in.

B5. Choice. I delve into this a lot more in the next section, but the whole aspect of choice that is repeatedly emphasized by PGI and the FP diehards has little appeal to me. In the abstract sense it does, but first we need A1, A2, and A3. If those reasons are never addressed, choice of faction, choice of unit, choice of planet, choice of enemies or allies will not draw me in. It's a red herring until fundamental gameplay becomes interesting.

C) These changes, in addition to (A), might get me invested in FP:

Spoiler

C1. More varied tactical gameplay. Maps with multiple attack corridors--or better yet no corridors. Maps twice or ten times the size of Polar Highlands where we need to prioritize targets to attack or defend within a match, and commit to them. Anything that doesn't involve grinding brawls in bottlenecks.

C2. Clearer campaign purposes and an overarching narrative. There is a strong desire for an Eve Online sort of player-run economy and political map, but I don't think that is possible in MWO for two major reasons: Lack of overall population; and lack of developmental resources. Whether its time or skill, PGI just can't cut it, and never will. I'd rather see a more limited but purposeful campaign. I might not get to choose, but there is a clear goal to the fight. Operation Bulldog and Serpent. The FedCom Civil War. And yes, Operation Revival. Give us a 3-month season with two clear goals (one for each side) beyond trading planets. During these campaign seasons, allies and enemies are assigned by PGI (or whoever designs and runs the campaigns), restricting choice but funneling gameplay into defined goals and matches.

C3. Better faction-based communication and recruiting tools. This is probably DOA due to how long it took to implement VOIP and basic chat (as I understand it), but we need faction lobbies within game. Even if it's just text chat and redirection to the TS hub. Use the faction to act as a giant surrogate unit for PUGs like me. People who want to play in units will play in units. People who don't just won't. But if you create a giant forum where we can consistently meet and play with other PUGs of our faction, we might be more inclined to build esprit d'corps and maybe even join units. And give units better recruiting tools in-game. It's just too much effort to try to find a unit via forums in my experience.

C4. I'd also like to see a restriction of choice. Force us into a random faction or the smallest population faction the first time we click on FP. New players know next to nothing about the factions, and since there is no in-game lore or tactical reason to choose one IS over another IS, it really doesn't matter. Place heavy emphasis on the loyalist factions and less emphasis on Mercs. Drawing emphasis away from Mercs with their tendency to switch loyalties will put emphasis on....loyalty, and the sense of in-game community that comes with it. To become a Merc you have to consciously break your initial Loyalist contract--the one you were forced into when you were "conscripted" or called to your liege's banner or smtg. Perhaps the Merc is where Units can still shine, but with well-established in-game loyalist communication tools I'd like to think the power of giant merc units would be significantly reduced.

TL;DR: The main thing that keeps people like me away is stale gameplay. Stale gameplay leads to low populations, making it harder to find matches and therefore harder to earn the experience necessary to really master the nuances of Invasion.

Proposals that focus on anything beyond the fundamental game play (e.g., choice of allies, personal or planetary rewards, game economy, attack lanes) are red herrings as far as I am concerned. I'd rather see less player choice if it means that there is more of a narrative purpose to the game, and the varied types of goals and actual gameplay that might accompany such narrative purpose.

EDIT: Since this is now in my signature, I'm cross-linking some ideas on how to improve solo play in FP via better communication tools.

Edited by Jables McBarty, 04 August 2016 - 11:50 AM.

[Feral Goose]

Mercs ought not be able to defend another faction's planet. You are a merc for the faction you have a contract for, to attack and defend that faction's planets..... period.

There, you now have an immediate advantage of being a loyalist due to common sense.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 29 June 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

We simply need more rewards.

http://mwomercs.com/...t=201606faction

Aaaand queues are full again...

[Red Shrike]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 30 June 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...t=201606faction

Aaaand queues are full again...

Looking at the queues, it shows that lack of people playing FP is the result of something else.

Edited by Red Shrike, 30 June 2016 - 12:09 PM.

[Jables McBarty]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 30 June 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...t=201606faction

Aaaand queues are full again...

Possibly this is what Shrike meant, but if the only thing that can entice players into FP is a free Mech + MechBay, then I'd say there are more fundamental problems with the game mode.

[MischiefSC]

Mystere, on 30 June 2016 - 06:37 AM, said:

I'm sorry but I think a planetary "invasion" won by a simple win/loss tally is several steps backwards. What CW is missing right now is a feeling of being in a campaign. We need more immersion, not less. Otherwise, PGI might as well pattern CW on the US March Madness bracket system.

I'd love a more campaign style system where taking a world involved securing a landing zone, scouting and raiding the surrounding area, objective raids, securing supply lines, siege of fortified positions to open up attacks against critical infrastructure, ambushes on supply lines, raids on C&C to diminish effectiveness, recon in force and sweeps to push defenders into position for a final engagement to destroy or drive off planet the final defenses.

That's never going to happen though. Mwo will never be more complex than QP style matches with some sort of framework to create the illusion of depth. We also need to try and work out the huge population disparities.

Hence % of wins. It's no less relevant than the current "zones" system which is just % captured as a % wins/loss but capped at a set number of wins to take the world. All I'm saying is make taking a planet, especially a hotly contested one, be more involved than the last 7 wins before CF.

[Jack Booted Thug]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 29 June 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

We simply need more rewards.
Beside faction loyality we should get different rewards for different modes. Like a seperate counter for attack/defense/counter-defense mission played and/or won.

rewards in general are just to swallow, why there are no faction related real rewards which actually feel faction related and like something worth to accomplish is beyond me.

How about a really beefed up hellbringer with green/gold falcon camo if you reach rank.. dunno 15 for jade falcon?
Or a shiny dragon with unique kurita camo for, well... kurita.
Folks would storm into FP and camp the queues...
..and if that is much to implement, at least a new variant of an icon, faction related mech ONLY accessible through FP rewards.

Or, my all time favorite, make loyality a currency and let folks decide what they want as a reward.

how do rewards make it a less boring game mode? for those of us with a significant number of CW matches under our belt?

How does that help the stale repetitive nature of the mode, the limited choke point maps that force the same fight, same set ups, same fire lines, over and over and over? Same boring omega, just sitting there

[AssaultPig]

hah, yeah

as we'll see this weekend, it's possible to bribe people into FP by offering them big rewards

few of them are gonna stay when the rewards go back to normal though

[C E Dwyer]

Iron Buccaneer, on 29 June 2016 - 12:28 PM, said:

So it seems as if this two faction Clan vs IS concept is gaining traction sadly. For some reason people have the misguided idea that population is the problem and that if we just reduce the attack lanes we will suddenly have faction warfare going 24/7 and we will never have to wait for a match again.
The problem with that thinking is that population problems are a symptom of what is wrong with Faction Play and forcing the entire population into two factions is only going to aggravate that problem.

With phase 3 the attack lanes were greatly reduced and did that suddenly make things better? Nope it did not. It's just getting worse and worse. In fact we are already playing IS vs Clan on the Steiner/FRR vs Jade Falcon front. Absolutely nothing serious is going on anywhere else. Even the formerly lively Capellan vs Federated Suns front is dead. If that isn't fun for you now forcing everyone into two factions will not help. The faction population imbalance will become even more problematic and we will pretty much be fighting a seesaw battle at best or one faction will dominate all the time. Not to mention it won't be Battletech and believe it or not a lot of us are playing because we want Battletech and not Red vs Blue.

The mode is the problem. Scouting was a nice addition but tac nuke Long Toms empty the que. At best they should be slightly heavier arty strikes. That would still be worth while but not game breaking. "Invasion mode" can be fun but I think it should be used either for more important planets or as final battles fought for individual regions on planets. It should be called siege mode because that is what it really is. Most of our battles could be fought 12 vs 12 on regular maps. People don't always want to que up for larger battles that funnel mechs into the same kill zones. If we had another drop deck for 12 vs 12 that required us to have one of each mech class then matchmaker could choose a good balance and assign each pilots a mech for that battle. It would encourage cross training as well. Raids that would have an affect on faction economy would be nice. Perhaps a faction could vote for one faction to be at war with and two others to raid each phase.

Factions need dynamic content with flavor that fits the faction and mercs could have something that reflects their MRBC ratings. Instead of shorter contracts we should be able to take even longer contracts to promote faction stability. Faction incentives should reflect not only the population of the faction but also the success of the faction.

If this mode had true end game content then population would not be an issue. It wasn't in the past but since we were promised a dynamic end game with Faction Warfare and got nothing but empty promises and tweaks of Beta content even the diehards are burning out. You can tell the entire game took a population hit after the disappointment of phase 3. Dumping us into two factions will not save this mode or this game and neither will E-Sports.

I came here to refute this, as I thought it was going to be a lot of pointless waffle, but I can only after reading it stand by, this and support it as the real problem behind F.W and going part way to the cure

[Red Shrike]

That's the thing though, having to bribe players into playing FP shows that the the maps and gamemodes are inadequate at best.

Edited by Red Shrike, 01 July 2016 - 12:24 AM.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Q: The number 1 way to improve FP?

A: Scrap all the choke point maps and make new, open maps.

[Ruslan Savelyev]

Jables McBarty, on 30 June 2016 - 07:06 AM, said:

A1. Stale gameplay. Invasion Mode is incredibly rigid, all maps are essentially identical. It's been said before--choke-point brawls, occasional light rush, not much more. It's just not that interesting to me. In QP you can get some really interesting matches that range all over the map. Not so much in FP. Scouting helped with this--I initially really enjoyed running my Pirate's Bane to cap points and escape--but eventually was drawn back to QP.

B1. Rewards. I don't give a flying f**k about the rewards for playing as Merc/Loyalist. To me, rewards are a nice extra, but by no means an incentive. I may represent a tiny minority of potential FPers, but I consistently see rewards touted as the downfall or solution to low FP numbers. Believe me, the only thing that will get me into FP is a solution to Problem #A1. Honestly, the fact that there was such consistent outcry among loyalists post-Phase 3 really alienated me and I'm guessing others like me. It gave the impression--however accurate or not--that the bulk of the FP crowd is an insular group that feels a sense of entitlement for playing the least-popular game mode.

B2. Planet Flipping. I'm not really concerned with how often planets flip--I DON'T EVEN FULLY UNDERSTAND HOW THIS WORKS. I've watched Kanajashi's videos and read the Google Docs guide and it's so convoluted that I refuse to waste the time to learn. All I know is that about half the time that I want to play FP, the map is dead due to a CeaseFire. So I go back to QP and forget about FP for another month.

TL;DR: The main thing that keeps people like me away is stale gameplay. Stale gameplay leads to low populations, making it harder to find matches and therefore harder to earn the experience necessary to really master the nuances of Invasion.

Proposals that focus on anything beyond the fundamental game play (e.g., choice of allies, personal or planetary rewards, game economy, attack lanes) are red herrings as far as I am concerned.

Jack Booted Thug, on 30 June 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

How does that help the stale repetitive nature of the mode, the limited choke point maps that force the same fight, same set ups, same fire lines, over and over and over? Same boring omega, just sitting there

^ these 100%. QP has a dozen maps with a hundred different ways to win the game depending on what you are dropping with and against. MRBC and MWOWC play with QP maps, QP objectives, and end in any number of ways based on the "personalities" of the teams. QP offers me a different game every time I queue for it.

FP on the other hand... rally up -> push down a trench -> engage in mid/close range brawl or sit and wait -> engage in a mid/close range brawl. In either case, 75% of your drops will likely be in duplicate build 'Mechs and you will be engaging largely identical builds as long as the match is still contested. All the maps are boring and play the same, but you also know the map so you can pick the mathematically optimal deck.

"the bulk of the FP crowd is an insular group that feels a sense of entitlement for playing the least-popular game mode" is probably the crux of the most recent decline in participation. Earlier FP seemed to be more oriented towards competitive play, and gave competitively inclined players an in-game outlet to establish themselves. This last overhaul, in attempting to make FP more casual friendly, ended up making FP more frustrating for competitive players, while offering casuals the same poor gameplay and utterly insignificant rewards. The result of that is where we are now, fewer competitive players are playing out of frustration while everyone else sticks with the mode that offers better games, QP.

[Ssamout]

Ruslan Savelyev, on 01 July 2016 - 01:18 AM, said:

The result of that is where we are now, fewer competitive players are playing out of frustration while everyone else sticks with the mode that offers better games, QP.

Actually its quite rare to find competitive players in FAPtion play. Ever since "phase1" they mostly bailed. The guys you mean are CW-veterans.

[Mystere]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 01 July 2016 - 12:27 AM, said:

Q: The number 1 way to improve FP?

A: Scrap all the choke point maps and make new, open maps.

Why do people always call for removing or nerfing something? It's always "I don't like X. Therefore, remove X".

Why not instead add maps of different styles?