175 replies to this topic

[Hal Greaves]

whats fun to do is take a boomcrow instead of a skillcrow

i can take out lights well enough with A-SRM6's on my own, and IS mechs who think I have a skillcrow are in for a surprise when they get close

[Husker Dude]

xMEPHISTOx, on 10 July 2016 - 06:01 PM, said:

Range.
Their range is horrible, take advantage of that.

MischiefSC, on 10 July 2016 - 09:12 PM, said:

Their range is superior to any non-long-range IS weapons. It's over 400m with 100% hit accuracy. No IS brawling weapon is going to be able to out-fight it and any mid-range weapon on 55t or less is unlikely to beat it sufficiently before their team is in brawling range.

Yeah, trying to keep outside 400 meters against a Stormcrow (which itself moves over 100 kph) is not a good proposition; your IS lights CAN go faster, but keeping that distance will often require you to run straight away, and exposing your back AND travelling in a straight direction are both things that will get your mech destroyed in short order.
Whatever your tactic for beating a Streakcrow, you can't simply try to stay out of range the entire match.

[Kuritaclan]

false topic.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 11 July 2016 - 12:07 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Nova, HBK2C are both better, more dangerous mechs than the Skillcrow - if the player can aim and manage heat.

If the player can NOT aim or manage heat then the Skillcrow lets them at least perform mediocre.

There is no equivalent for the IS.

I don't know how much simpler I can make this. An auto-aim weapon that's good at 400m vs most IS brawling weapons which are good to 270m bridges the skill gap.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

It takes a streak crow around 180-200 missiles to kill a stock CN9-A which runs 80% armor (or 73% if you don't count the excessive back armor), and thats counting a side torso loss as a death. Roughly 30 seconds to kill a poorly armored 50 ton mech. The point at which one's aim allows them to overcome streaks is not that high. Furthermore, heat management is as much a part of building a mech as it is playing. For example, typical Griffin brawlers can sustain constant missile fire for around 60 seconds before any alteration in firing pattern needs to take place.

[Zolaz]

When I fight Clans in Scouting missions, I run a Centurion-AH, Yen Lo Wang or Griffin-2N. The AH runs an AC20 and 3 SRM4s. The Wang runs an AC20 and 2 SPLs. The Griffin runs ECM, 4 SRM6s and 2 SPLs. All of them have XL engines to keep pace with Clan mechs.

If you are having a problem with Streak Crows you are either fighting 3 or 4 at a time or you cant hit what you are aiming at. You are going to lose the match if your team doesnt run efficient mechs or doesnt support each other in a fight. Get some firing discipline or run ballistics and medium/small lasers if you are shutting down during the brawl.

[MischiefSC]

Rouken Vordermark, on 11 July 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

It takes a streak crow around 180-200 missiles to kill a stock CN9-A which runs 80% armor (or 73% if you don't count the excessive back armor), and thats counting a side torso loss as a death. Roughly 30 seconds to kill a poorly armored 50 ton mech. The point at which one's aim allows them to overcome streaks is not that high. Furthermore, heat management is as much a part of building a mech as it is playing. For example, typical Griffin brawlers can sustain constant missile fire for around 60 seconds before any alteration in firing pattern needs to take place.

60 seconds would be 600 damage. You'll kill or cripple a Griffin closer to 200, which is about 20 seconds.

That also implies that it's a bunch of 1 on 1 duels. If there's 3 Skillcrows they'll kill the Griffin in more like 6 seconds. If there isn't terrain to completely cover the Griffin while closing (or the griffin pilot isn't that good) he'll take 180 pts of damage literally before he's in range to fire his first shot. He'll take another 180 about the time they're at his max range, then another 180 before he gets a second shot off.

See how that works?

100% hit rate with 60 pts of damage and 400m range makes up for a *lot* of accuracy variation. If it was all 1v1 matches that'd be one thing, but it isn't. Even if it is mostly 1 v 1 the average player isn't even putting 50% of his SRM damage accurately on the same leg. Most are not even trying to leg scrows; they know they're not likely to hit.

Scouting is playing out for a reason. Again, IS teams are running 80-90% win rates, about what Clan teams are running. The difference is in the pug v pug matches.

[Kuritaclan]

MischiefSC, on 11 July 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

100% hit rate with 60 pts of damage and 400m range makes up for a *lot* of accuracy variation.

Well you should look up your accuracy quota with SSRMs. I can assure they don't have 100%.

I see what you did there and what he did. Anyway you are right and wrong as he is. Bad player will run badly into a pack of skillcrows on plain field, and call for fix. Good players try to work around this issue.

MischiefSC, on 11 July 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

Scouting is playing out for a reason. Again, IS teams are running 80-90% win rates, about what Clan teams are running. The difference is in the pug v pug matches.

Sreaks needs to be judged under circumstances. And because of that they are okayish up to op. I think it is okay as it is. I for myself fear a Boom Jenner IIC more so than any kind of crow.

[Carl Vickers]

I did always find it funny that Streaks, which by rights have more components in regards to a seeker head, have more range than a dumb fire missile which looks about the same size.

Perhaps PGI should flip the range values on both.

[MischiefSC]

Kuritaclan, on 11 July 2016 - 07:32 PM, said:

Well you should look up your accuracy quota with SSRMs. I can assure they don't have 100%.

I see what you did there and what he did. Anyway you are right and wrong as he is. Bad player will run badly into a pack of skillcrows on plain field, and call for fix. Good players try to work around this issue.


Sreaks needs to be judged under circumstances. And because of that they are okayish up to op. I think it is okay as it is. I for myself fear a Boom Jenner IIC more so than any kind of crow.

SSRMs are 100% hit rate unless you're shooting at someone physically behind cover - at which point they can't hit you. If however you're in, say, a brawl where all scouting ends up, it's 100%.

Carl Vickers, on 11 July 2016 - 08:10 PM, said:

I did always find it funny that Streaks, which by rights have more components in regards to a seeker head, have more range than a dumb fire missile which looks about the same size.

Perhaps PGI should flip the range values on both.

I'd be perfectly happy with that.

Issue with streaks is that they have superior range and don't require aiming. For pug v pug that's enough to create a balance issue.

[justcallme A S H]

MischiefSC, on 11 July 2016 - 09:03 PM, said:

SSRMs are 100% hit rate unless you're shooting at someone physically behind cover - at which point they can't hit you. If however you're in, say, a brawl where all scouting ends up, it's 100%.

Or you're in a fast light. I saw a locust outrun 2 SSRM volleys the other night. They were shot from ~300M from memory. Locust OP!

[Malcolm Vordermark]

MischiefSC, on 11 July 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

60 seconds would be 600 damage. You'll kill or cripple a Griffin closer to 200, which is about 20 seconds.

200 damage doesn't even kill that Centurion I mentioned. The one with 80% armor and at least 12 back armor in each section. Griffins typically have around 350 armor. Considering internals and quirks I estimate at around 450 to kill a Griffin, if not more.

MischiefSC, on 11 July 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

That also implies that it's a bunch of 1 on 1 duels. If there's 3 Skillcrows they'll kill the Griffin in more like 6 seconds. If there isn't terrain to completely cover the Griffin while closing (or the griffin pilot isn't that good) he'll take 180 pts of damage literally before he's in range to fire his first shot. He'll take another 180 about the time they're at his max range, then another 180 before he gets a second shot off.

Your example now includes a pilot not making use of cover and the enemy focusing on a target. This no longer has anything to do with streaks. In this example the Griffin would lose to all but the worst builds.

MischiefSC, on 11 July 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

See how that works?

100% hit rate with 60 pts of damage and 400m range makes up for a *lot* of accuracy variation. If it was all 1v1 matches that'd be one thing, but it isn't. Even if it is mostly 1 v 1 the average player isn't even putting 50% of his SRM damage accurately on the same leg. Most are not even trying to leg scrows; they know they're not likely to hit.

Scouting is playing out for a reason. Again, IS teams are running 80-90% win rates, about what Clan teams are running. The difference is in the pug v pug matches.

Its weird how you assume streak crows are going to focus fire but that the IS team in not also capable of this.

100% accuracy is misleading, as so much of that damage is wasted.

Not going for legs has a solution. You teach them to shoot legs. Like in this thread where someone asked how to counter 'crows, numerous people said "leg 'em".

[MischiefSC]

I get that this is repetitive, that's because what's getting repeated keeps getting ignored.

IS 4mans scouting get 80-90% wins or better.

Clan 4mans scouting get 80-90% wins or better.

Nobody is arguing that.

The point is that for pugs, for the people who don't aim well, that big majority of the population that is pugging and being inherently mediocre (or worse) the whole 'not having to aim' thing is a big advantage.

Hence the disparity on scouting.

Hence the comments on 'make streaks have the same range as SRMs'. Simple change, big difference in performance. The Nova and HBK2C are more dangerous than the Scrow, especially the skillcrow - for players who can aim.

When you're talking about pug matches where they play, like, well, pugs, then one side having to aim vs one side auto-aim plus 40% more range, it's a significant difference.

[H I A S]

MischiefSC, on 12 July 2016 - 01:18 AM, said:

I get that this is repetitive, that's because what's getting repeated keeps getting ignored.

IS 4mans scouting get 80-90% wins or better.

Clan 4mans scouting get 80-90% wins or better.

Nobody is arguing that.

The point is that for pugs, for the people who don't aim well, that big majority of the population that is pugging and being inherently mediocre (or worse) the whole 'not having to aim' thing is a big advantage.

Hence the disparity on scouting.

Hence the comments on 'make streaks have the same range as SRMs'. Simple change, big difference in performance. The Nova and HBK2C are more dangerous than the Scrow, especially the skillcrow - for players who can aim.

When you're talking about pug matches where they play, like, well, pugs, then one side having to aim vs one side auto-aim plus 40% more range, it's a significant difference.

Autoaimweapons shouldnt be in a FPS. CSSRM are the noobtubes from MWO.
They create a 400 m no go area for terribads.

But what u never should do:
Balance a Teamgame around Solos.
Balance a FPS around the soreloosers.

Edited by arivio, 12 July 2016 - 01:54 AM.

[TWIAFU]

MischiefSC, on 12 July 2016 - 01:18 AM, said:

When you're talking about pug matches where they play, like, well, pugs, then one side having to aim vs one side auto-aim plus 40% more range, it's a significant difference.

Still say, give IS the sSRM4 and sSRM6 as it is about damn time.

"Level the playing field" kinda thing.

Then we can read nerf IS Streaks in addition to nerf ECM Griffins because they can "beat" Streaks as we already have seen.

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

Well, in any case, Griffins don't need a nerf, they're already practically the same size as the Warhammer.

Won't stop people from complaining. the 3M and 2N are good, the 3M due to quirks and 2N thanks to ECM, and the other two c-bill variants are ...sorta like BNC-LM vs the others....okay...but **** for a Griffin.

[TWIAFU]

Keshav Murali, on 12 July 2016 - 03:43 AM, said:

Well, in any case, Griffins don't need a nerf, they're already practically the same size as the Warhammer.

Won't stop people from complaining. the 3M and 2N are good, the 3M due to quirks and 2N thanks to ECM, and the other two c-bill variants are ...sorta like BNC-LM vs the others....okay...but **** for a Griffin.

Of course they don't need a nerf. Just pointing out that we have already seen "nerf Griffin 2N's" only because some pugtard lost to them in his crutchcrow.

That is the *#$%ing mentality we have to deal with here.

[Surn]

Have you noticed that even the "best" teams that go clan for too long, lose their ability to win in inner sphere mechs. The crutchcrows and crutchkodiaks kill skills.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

MischiefSC, on 12 July 2016 - 01:18 AM, said:

I get that this is repetitive, that's because what's getting repeated keeps getting ignored.

IS 4mans scouting get 80-90% wins or better.

Clan 4mans scouting get 80-90% wins or better.

Nobody is arguing that.

The point is that for pugs, for the people who don't aim well, that big majority of the population that is pugging and being inherently mediocre (or worse) the whole 'not having to aim' thing is a big advantage.

Hence the disparity on scouting.

Hence the comments on 'make streaks have the same range as SRMs'. Simple change, big difference in performance. The Nova and HBK2C are more dangerous than the Scrow, especially the skillcrow - for players who can aim.

When you're talking about pug matches where they play, like, well, pugs, then one side having to aim vs one side auto-aim plus 40% more range, it's a significant difference.

I disagree, balancing around bad players is not a good idea.

Actually, I have the perfect solution. I suggest taking a raven 3L with 2 LRM5. Its got everything: auto aim weapons, 1000 meter range, it can out run Stormcrows and comes with ECM. The damage is lower, but whatever, you get free damage until they catch you; IF they catch you, and LRMs gravitate to CT, not random components so its better concentrated.

[Lily from animove]

MechregSurn, on 12 July 2016 - 06:08 AM, said:

Have you noticed that even the "best" teams that go clan for too long, lose their ability to win in inner sphere mechs. The crutchcrows and crutchkodiaks kill skills.

the "best teams" don't even use streaks.