206 replies to this topic

[Satan n stuff]

mogs01gt, on 25 July 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

So you do not realize/accept that scaling and quirks are artificial forms of balance?? Yeah, lets make lights function at the same level of heavier mechs. That makes total sense!

LMAO @ some of these guys!!!


So you want a light mech to compete 1v1 with heavier mechs by at the 1/4 the cbill value? Would that not make mediums and poorly performing heavier mechs useless? That is not proper balancing. Again, define combat viable.

In PGI's current game mode design, lights SHOULDNT be viable. Game modes are the problem, not lights.

Last time I checked you don't bring CBills into a match, you bring a mech. If one mech is clearly inferior to another there is no reason to bring that one. If you can design a game mode where the current lights are equally effective and fun to play as the heavies and assaults go ahead but since PGI has repeatedly failed at making game modes interesting for everyone, making lights equally combat effective seems to be the only way to balance them.

[WarHippy]

Bush Hopper, on 22 July 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Lights are restricted to poking and drive-by-shooting. Knife fighting is basically dead.

I think lights should be effective as well, but the above is how I think it should be. Hit and runs and poking is how it should be rather than being able to stay in knife fighting range far longer than they should be able to.

[BigBenn]

Light mechs are the featherweight boxers of the Mechwarrior world. They blurry fast, cant hit very hard, but with hit 10 times to a heavy weight boxer's 1 time.

Light mechs NEED to stay moving. They are not a brawler. They are a skirmisher, a shoot-n-scoot specialist. If you're dumb enough to go toe to toe with an assualt or heavy mech you're dumb enough to get your light mech ripped in two and tossed in opposite directions. Sure, some of the light mechs can carry an obscene amount of small lasers, get close, and stay fast. Sure, some mechs can deliver can deliver an obscene amount and alpha strike damage (Jenner) to the backside of a mech for an easy kill, but in general dont go punch for punch vs any other mech unless it is a light mech or lighly armed medium mech.

Light mechs are certainly "combat worthy". Just be "worthy" of using a light mech in a proper manner and the light mech will be a fun ride. Otherwise, you'll be spectating soon enough.

[dario03]

mogs01gt, on 25 July 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

So you do not realize/accept that scaling and quirks are artificial forms of balance?? Yeah, lets make lights function at the same level of heavier mechs. That makes total sense!

LMAO @ some of these guys!!!


So you want a light mech to compete 1v1 with heavier mechs by at the 1/4 the cbill value? Would that not make mediums and poorly performing heavier mechs useless? That is not proper balancing. Again, define combat viable.

In PGI's current game mode design, lights SHOULDNT be viable. Game modes are the problem, not lights.

I want all mechs to be approximately equal on the battle field. We are not limited by cbills in either QP or FP so mechs should not be balanced based on that. Plus a Urbanmech pack costs the same as a Kodiak pack in real world money. Also the cost of a mech isn't determined by just weight, for instance the old popular builds for the Jenner F and Thunderbolt 5SS are basically the same at ~10,150,000. So even if we did balance by cbills it wouldn't mean lights should be weak, but we shouldn't be balancing by cbills any ways.

In PGI's current model of QP you bring one mech so lights SHOULD be viable. And then they could just change FP drop deck requirements. But even if they didn't lights still wouldn't be OP then since if all mechs were ~equal a drop deck of 160 would be about as good as a 250.

Edited by dario03, 25 July 2016 - 08:26 AM.

[Darian DelFord]

Part of the issue that folks do not realize... is most of the maps are turning into peek a boo snipe feasts. It is very hard for a light mechs to mount any type of Long Range weapons. A Light has to be within 200 meters to be as effective as a heavy or an assault at 500+ meters

BigBenn, on 25 July 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

Sure, some mechs can deliver can deliver an obscene amount and alpha strike damage (Jenner) to the backside of a mech for an easy kill,

Its statements like this that absolutely infuriate me.... Only 1 Jenner can do that, the Jenner IIC can do this.... and in order to do it a few things have to happen

1. Has to be within 120 meters

2. Small *** engine when compared to other 35 ton lights

3. Extremely limited ammo

4. Long *** reload time and heat out the wazoo.

5. NO Defensive quirks... in fact NO quirks at all.

6. Has to go completely un-detected until he is within 120 meters of his target.... and then has to have EVERY single on the center torso.

7. Hopes the enemy mech is mounting an IS XL engine.

Plus do not forget the fact that most assaults and heavies have EXTREMELY bloated structure quirks as well as agility.

The other 7 Jenners can not do this.... so please either be specific when you makes assumptions or don't make them.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 25 July 2016 - 08:28 AM.

[4rcs1ne]

mogs01gt, on 25 July 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

In PGI's current game mode design, lights SHOULDNT be viable. Game modes are the problem, not lights.

In no way, shape, or form is an entire weight class being rendered useless good balance practice.

Edited by Matt2496, 25 July 2016 - 09:03 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Matt2496, on 25 July 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

In no way, shape, or form is an entire weight class being useless good balance practice.

Who ever said it was? The issue is that PGI has not made lights viable without artificial changes in the current TDM format. To equate a light mech to other FPS games, that is like bring a pistol vs a assaults riffle or sub compact in COD.

Dont assume I want lights to be bad. I simply have a realistic view on our current TDM game modes and lights shouldnt be viable in that game mode.

Edited by mogs01gt, 25 July 2016 - 09:05 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Darian DelFord, on 25 July 2016 - 08:26 AM, said:

Part of the issue that folks do not realize... is most of the maps are turning into peek a boo snipe feasts. It is very hard for a light mechs to mount any type of Long Range weapons. A Light has to be within 200 meters to be as effective as a heavy or an assault at 500+ meters



Its statements like this that absolutely infuriate me.... Only 1 Jenner can do that, the Jenner IIC can do this.... and in order to do it a few things have to happen

1. Has to be within 120 meters

2. Small *** engine when compared to other 35 ton lights

3. Extremely limited ammo

4. Long *** reload time and heat out the wazoo.

5. NO Defensive quirks... in fact NO quirks at all.

6. Has to go completely un-detected until he is within 120 meters of his target.... and then has to have EVERY single on the center torso.

7. Hopes the enemy mech is mounting an IS XL engine.

Plus do not forget the fact that most assaults and heavies have EXTREMELY bloated structure quirks as well as agility.

The other 7 Jenners can not do this.... so please either be specific when you makes assumptions or don't make them.

Darian...they don't understand this. Why? Because most of them do not even play lights at all or hardly. Just check their stats with whom your argue.

[Kirkland Langue]

To those who think that Light Mechs are gimped - I think you are full of it.

But, If you want to "prove" it - here's a good starting point:
1. Figure out the relative frequency which different mechs aren't shot at because they aren't seen. There's a stat that should be figured into any discussion about balance between "something little" and "something big".
2. Figure out all the various places that different mechs can access, and access easily.
3. Figure out how often different mechs are shot at but the shots miss.

Things that you aren't going to find statistics for, but clearly make a huge difference in how effective a mech can be.

[dario03]

Kirkland Langue, on 25 July 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:

To those who think that Light Mechs are gimped - I think you are full of it.

But, If you want to "prove" it - here's a good starting point:
1. Figure out the relative frequency which different mechs aren't shot at because they aren't seen. There's a stat that should be figured into any discussion about balance between "something little" and "something big".
2. Figure out all the various places that different mechs can access, and access easily.
3. Figure out how often different mechs are shot at but the shots miss.

Things that you aren't going to find statistics for, but clearly make a huge difference in how effective a mech can be.

I'm sure most have thought of all that before. Doesn't change the fact that lights are weaker now, didn't need nerfed, and (with a couple of exceptions) were already weak before the nerf.

[Weeny Machine]

Kirkland Langue, on 25 July 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:

To those who think that Light Mechs are gimped - I think you are full of it.

But, If you want to "prove" it - here's a good starting point:
1. Figure out the relative frequency which different mechs aren't shot at because they aren't seen. There's a stat that should be figured into any discussion about balance between "something little" and "something big".
2. Figure out all the various places that different mechs can access, and access easily.
3. Figure out how often different mechs are shot at but the shots miss.

Things that you aren't going to find statistics for, but clearly make a huge difference in how effective a mech can be.

The problem is that sneaking is hard in MWO (at least in the top tiers). Most players run seismic, often a UAV is up etc.

Knife-fighting, which was done by several lights, is dead since the re-scale and the agility nerf (due to the movement archtype change) to some of the 35t.

What is lleft? Sniping can be better done with a medium because he has more damage on mid-range.

Also a medium doesn't run the risk of being crippled eating 2-3 partial alphas of heavies or assaults

But why do I tell you that? I mean you have matches in med to assault mechs but ZERO matches in lights. Yet you come to the forum and say "you are full of it". Guess what I think of a person like you...

Edited by Bush Hopper, 25 July 2016 - 11:09 AM.

[Jables McBarty]

mogs01gt, on 25 July 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

Who ever said it was? The issue is that PGI has not made lights viable without artificial changes in the current TDM format. To equate a light mech to other FPS games, that is like bring a pistol vs a assaults riffle or sub compact in COD.

Except in COD (at least MW2, the last only iteration I played), the dude with the two automatic pistols and speed and knife perks could compete with the guy with a light machine gun and armor-piercing bullet perks.

Quote

Dont assume I want lights to be bad. I simply have a realistic view on our current TDM game modes and lights shouldnt be viable in that game mode should be bad.

FTFY

[Blue Pheonix]

While there will always be a handful of exceptional pilots in any tier, people who make comments about lights needing to be nerfed or that they are fine where they are at should have the leaderboards checked to see how many matches they have piloted in them. They should also disclose their tier level as it is arguably easier to use lights in the higher tiers (2-4) then it is in tier 1 due to many factors.

Edited by Blue Pheonix, 25 July 2016 - 11:15 AM.

[Jables McBarty]

mogs01gt, on 25 July 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

So you want a light mech to compete 1v1 with heavier mechs by at the 1/4 the cbill value?

Yes.

Quote

Would that not make mediums and poorly performing heavier mechs useless?

No*.

Quote

That is not proper balancing.

And...cbill cost (?) is?

Quote

Again, define combat viable.

I'm beginning to wonder what your definition is.

Quote

In PGI's current game mode design, lights SHOULDNT be viable. Game modes are the problem, not lights.

Game modes are a problem, but not "the" problem.

"The" problem would be the general attitude held by certain persons that certain classes should be inherently inferior at doing damage to other 'mechs in a game focused around doing damage to other 'mechs.

EDIT: I find it increasingly hard to argue with people who only discuss the game "we should have" instead of the game "we do have."



*Assumes that these poorly performing heavier 'mechs are not already useless. Also the concern for the "poor mediums and lessxcelent heavies" but none for the lights.

Edited by Jables McBarty, 25 July 2016 - 11:36 AM.

[Jables McBarty]

Quinn Allard, on 25 July 2016 - 07:12 AM, said:

Not sure what you're on about. PL has the 333rd (my unit) that specializes in Light Combat and Recon. I routinely get over 400 damage and at least 2 or 3 kills per match in my Oxide. I've piloted the Oxide to 1200 damage and 5 kills before. You're just not a good light pilot.

What build do you use? Ammo limitations (given an XL285) keep me to a 900 damage max.

mogs01gt, on 25 July 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

Define "combat viable" first. IMO they shouldnt be combat viable when the majority of matches are vs heavier mechs. Now IMO Lights would be more viable in 8v8 because there are less mechs running around total, therefore there is less chance of heavier mechs.

My entire point is that lights should not be viable, in PGI's current game modes, due to the nature of having multiple heavy and assault mechs in matches. I have issues with lights being able to brawl in a fundamental sense of how I view the game.

And that's because you view the game in a childish "bigger=better" manner.

mogs01gt, on 25 July 2016 - 07:06 AM, said:

Except for like 3 lights, they already are worthless...If you want an entire weight class to be artificially brought up to the same standards as heavier mechs, then that isnt balance and will help kill the game.

Because all of the agility quirks for heavies and assaults aren't artificial?

"I'm sorry, but we can't artificially buff IS structure and energy quirks to bring them up to the level of the clans, with whom they are supposed to compete in fair odds environments. That isn't balance and will help kill the game."

Because the entire premise of MechWarrior and Battletech aren't fictional, made-up, artificial to begin with?

[Besh]

Jables McBarty, on 25 July 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

[..]
Because all of the agility quirks for heavies and assaults aren't artificial?
[...]

I am SO cherrypicking this and am going to say: Would love to experience what would happen, if all those Quirks would get nerfhammered similar to what they did to some Lights Quirks recently . You know, for the sake of Balance and all...and I am not even suggesting to rob 2/5th of their Leg Armor....

Edited by Besh, 25 July 2016 - 11:33 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

mogs01gt, on 25 July 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

So you do not realize/accept that scaling and quirks are artificial forms of balance?? Yeah, lets make lights function at the same level of heavier mechs. That makes total sense!

LMAO @ some of these guys!!!


So you want a light mech to compete 1v1 with heavier mechs by at the 1/4 the cbill value? Would that not make mediums and poorly performing heavier mechs useless? That is not proper balancing. Again, define combat viable.

In PGI's current game mode design, lights SHOULDNT be viable. Game modes are the problem, not lights.

Maybe you should start playing lights then to get a better impression. You have had zero matches in lights since rescale but in other mech class you have.

[Jables McBarty]

Besh, on 25 July 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

I am SO cherrypicking this and am going to say: Would love to experience what would happen, if all those Quirks would get nerfhammered similar to what they did to some Lights Quirks recently . You know, for the sake of Balance and all...and I am not even suggesting to rob 2/5th of their Leg Armor....

The forums would melt from all the burning indignation.

EDIT: Forum did that weird thing where it merges your posts together. Introducing an artificial break....

Edited by Jables McBarty, 25 July 2016 - 11:39 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Bush Hopper, on 25 July 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

Maybe you should start playing lights then to get a better impression. You have had zero matches in lights since rescale but in other mech class you have.

Why would I want to play in a light? IMO lights are horrible. Are you saying they are viable? Maybe English isnt your first language.


Look closer, I've barely played all since then. Game is a borefest right now.

Edited by mogs01gt, 25 July 2016 - 11:39 AM.

[Jables McBarty]

What is the role of Assaults?

To kill Heavies.

What is the role of Heavies?

To kill Mediums.

What is the role of Mediums?

To kill Lights.

What is the role of Lights?

To be killed by Mediums.