413 replies to this topic

[davoodoo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 August 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

Considering I can't since I'm at work, decided to look through the patch notes, and they gave some interesting details.
LBX spread changes
Last SRM spread changes

tl;dr
Inner Sphere LB10-X
• Projectile Spread reduced from 1.3m to 0.9m.
IS SRM/4
• Projectile Spread reduced from 5.2 to 3.5m.
Even with artemis (which reduces spread by 33%), LBX10s have less spread than 4s according to this (McGral, happen to be able to check the files?). Though the context at what range they have this spread is missing, seriously PGI, y u no give context for anything.

At what range??

Cause lb20x with apparently only 10cm higher spread cant hit ct of hbk4g with all pellets at 200m.

[pyrocomp]

20-aug-2013 patch notes state
- Reducing spread on LBX-10 from 2.25 down to 1.3

And somewhere in the patch notes (yet I don't remember wich patch it was, but it was more than a year ago) and subsequent clarifications it was stated that this is a max spread, that is achieved after some distance (around 100-160 meters, if memory serves), and after that it remains unchenged with the distance (e.g. it's a cylinder, or, better, a pencil-like volume , not a cone ).

UPD: SRMs behavior is the same, albeit distance to max spread is low.

Edited by pyrocomp, 01 August 2016 - 02:28 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

Has anyone mentioned increasing the pellet/damage count yet?

2+1 (3 dmg)
5+2 (7 dmg)
10+3 (13 dmg)
20+4 (24 dmg)

I'd also be in favour of halving the pellet damage and doubling the total amount fired!

An LBX20 firing 40 (48) pellets towards you would make an Atlas think twice.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

VonBruinwald, on 01 August 2016 - 02:30 PM, said:

Has anyone mentioned increasing the pellet/damage count yet?

Yes, they have, but I'd much prefer more damage over more pellets because of how bad hit registry already is. More projectiles to calculate = bad, it's part of the reason I would love to see missiles be more packet based like they were in MW4.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 August 2016 - 02:42 PM.

[Deathlike]

Prosperity Park, on 01 August 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

You take everything to the extreme, don't you?

I say they should not be equal; you claim that I want one to be worthless. Chill out a little, and just take people's words for what they are, not what you want them to be so you have a chance to hard-refute them.

I want you to provide one good reason why my position is wrong. Give one good reason why the lighter, smaller, cooler weapon should be equally-good to the heavier, larger, hotter weapon. Go ahead.

Because, as far as I am aware, BattleTech usually makes the heavier and bigger weapons better performers then the smaller and lighter weapons.

Let me quite something specific from your position:

Prosperity Park, on 01 August 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

Remember, we cannot strive to make the IS LBX/10 "as good as" the IS AC/10.

The LBX weighs less, takes up fewer slots, and generates less heat. It should have worse performance, overall, as a consequence. It is, in balance terms, a Lesser Weapon.

It cannot be a "lesser" weapon. It simply has to do things differently for the purposes of balance. The nature of it being spread already makes it "lesser", but it can't be totally inferior (which it currently is) to its AC counterpart.

It's very much like IS UACs vs Clan UACs... they must operate on different principles since the inherent advantage in tonnage and crits belong to the Clans. It can't be "lesser", but different.

Semantics. It's very important. You can call me pedantic if you'd like, but sometimes the devil is in the details.

[Bilbo]

Deathlike, on 01 August 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

Let me quite something specific from your position:



It cannot be a "lesser" weapon. It simply has to do things differently for the purposes of balance. The nature of it being spread already makes it "lesser", but it can't be totally inferior (which it currently is) to its AC counterpart.

It's very much like IS UACs vs Clan UACs... they must operate on different principles since the inherent advantage in tonnage and crits belong to the Clans. It can't be "lesser", but different.

Semantics. It's very important. You can call me pedantic if you'd like, but sometimes the devil is in the details.

It weighs less, takes up less space, and produces less heat than it's counterpart. It does the same damage over an area and has a better chance to crit. You can't make it much more powerful short of removing the spread. Then you just have a better AC with a different name.

[davoodoo]

Bilbo, on 01 August 2016 - 04:36 PM, said:

It weighs less, takes up less space, and produces less heat than it's counterpart. It does the same damage over an area and has a better chance to crit. You can't make it much more powerful short of removing the spread. Then you just have a better AC with a different name.

Then to compensate you introduce specialty ammo like you should to begin with and its just an ac10 which weighs less and lacks all the cool specialty ammo acs have...

And damage over area isnt benefit, its a drawback, crits are also pretty worthless unless enemy boats gausses and even then pair of mgs does better job.

In tt where fire accuracy was decided by rng and tacs were possible having cluster rounds was a benefit in fps where your fire is pinpoint accurate and crits were butchered cluster rounds will be goddamn terrible unless they absolutely outclass everything else.

Also whats so unique about ac10 or ac5 when you have uac5, which weights 1 ton more than ac5 and 3 tons less than ac10 and can fire 2 slugs each doing 5 damage every 1.66s with only 15% chance to jam with higher range and velocity.

Edited by davoodoo, 01 August 2016 - 05:06 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

1.2 to start, 1.5 on the table. Throw in 0.1 damage/tic for MGs and 120 missiles/ton for SRMs and PGI will be well on the way toward making me a happy spender once more.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Pronotum, on 30 July 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

Hint: They're better than you think. Great? Not exactly. They're niched. But definitely not bad. Anyway, if you don't want to contribute to the discussion, kindly leave. You won't solve a thing like that. So, back on topic. We ought to look at the main issues people seem to be having with the LB-10X and see what the bloody problem is... Either it is through poor perception and misuse or through an actual issue. Right now people mentioned crap crits. ...is that all? No. So, what else is everyone's gripe with them? Let's all get to the same page, so we can properly discuss this. Instead of throwing random ideas like crap to the wind.

I am with you on this for the most part. I use alot of LBX cannons on my mechs and have quite a bit of success with them.

First out to about 200m the pellets actually don't have a huge amount of spread All you have to do to see this is go to a training room and then go shoot at some mechs and watch the paper doll. More often than not you will see the damage going exactly where your firing. Obivously the size of the mech your targeting makes a difference in this but with most mediums and larger your not spreading as much damage around as you think unless your trying to fire at longer ranges.

Second, I have fairly often just hit mechs that didn't appear to be all that heavily damage or even fully cored and have them just fall to the ground dead. My only explanation for this that my LBX round must have taken out his remaining armor and the remainder crited his engine 3 times and killed him or perhaps crit his cockpit and killed the pilot. It is very random when this happens but it happens enough I have noticed it dozens of times over a few hundred matches on mechs armed with LBX guns.

Third, often, especially at longer ranges, the spread of the pellets have managed to allow me to hit and cripple mechs sometimes knocking out 2-3 components with a single hit.

Forth, it is much easier to hit with a LBX because it is a shotgun, this heavily includes hitting light mechs which are especially vulnerable to LBX guns. At times this damage might not seem decisive but it is still damage and even if only a few pellets hit, it is better than a clean miss.

Fifth, if your playing Clan, the LBX is the closest thing to a standard, IS solid slug AC that you can get plus with the LBX you have less face time requirement after firing as opposed to a UAC.

So my point is, there are alot of advantages to using an LBX though I am not sure anything smaller than a LB-10x is viable.

As to why people don't like them most of it has to do with the range limitation and the fact that its damage is unreliable.

First range. Like I said, out to about 200m it has a pretty tight pattern, however past that you are spreading pellets everywhere and while damage is damage, not being able to concentrate that damage on a damaged section of the enemy can be a pretty severe disadvantage. Also out past 350m on any of the variants, your going to have pellets start to miss and that is just straight up wasted damage and you can forget falloff damage ranges because between misses and hits that are only doing partial damage, well the LBX is useless. When you compare that against a standard AC or UAC, they will have 2-3 times the useful range of a LBX.

The second thing I mention is that the damage is unreliable. Sometimes, as I mentioned mechs you hit just seem to die randomly for no reason as I mention I think this is due to a series of lucky crits happening however you can't count on that happening. Other times it just feels like your firing and firing and firing and while your getting good solid hits, it just doesn't seem like you getting anywhere. This especially happens when your firing at targets in the 300m plus range but can sometimes feel that way up close too especially when it just doesn't seem like the pellet will go where you want them to hit and instead hit strong armor instead. Basically it just isn't a weapon that you can trust like a good old solid slug IS AC or even a Clan UAC. I think this also tends to cause people to feel like they are much worse than they are.

How to fix them? Honestly I am not sure they need fixed. As I said, if you can get over the fact that they are very short ranged weapons, at max around the same range of a SRM, and that at times they aren't going to "seem" reliable, even though their damage output is pretty consistent, then they are fine and you can have great success with them. However, I can definately see how some people feel they are broken, even when they probably aren't.

[ice trey]

I would say keep the damage about the same, but I'd like to see crit chance increased for each pellet.

Crit-seeking was what cluster rounds were made for, after all, and if they can't do their job well, what's the point?

Maybe a fire-rate increase, too.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Viktor Drake, on 01 August 2016 - 06:37 PM, said:

First out to about 200m the pellets actually don't have a huge amount of spread All you have to do to see this is go to a training room and then go shoot at some mechs and watch the paper doll. More often than not you will see the damage going exactly where your firing. Obivously the size of the mech your targeting makes a difference in this but with most mediums and larger your not spreading as much damage around as you think unless your trying to fire at longer ranges.

Second, I have fairly often just hit mechs that didn't appear to be all that heavily damage or even fully cored and have them just fall to the ground dead. My only explanation for this that my LBX round must have taken out his remaining armor and the remainder crited his engine 3 times and killed him or perhaps crit his cockpit and killed the pilot. It is very random when this happens but it happens enough I have noticed it dozens of times over a few hundred matches on mechs armed with LBX guns.

Third, often, especially at longer ranges, the spread of the pellets have managed to allow me to hit and cripple mechs sometimes knocking out 2-3 components with a single hit.

Forth, it is much easier to hit with a LBX because it is a shotgun, this heavily includes hitting light mechs which are especially vulnerable to LBX guns. At times this damage might not seem decisive but it is still damage and even if only a few pellets hit, it is better than a clean miss.

First, LBX gets outclassed by SRMs in the 200m and less zone, making it hard to actually brawl brawlers with them.

Second, you can't crit engines, it does nothing. You also can't actually just kill the pilot. The mechs could have been more damaged than you thought if they died to you.

Third, at longer ranges if you were using a normal AC you'd be more likely to kill the enemy rather than cripple it, just saying.

Fourth, they are only better at taking out lights or hitting for you if your accuracy levels are low. When you can reliably hit Locusts with your ACs the LBX becomes rather worthless in comparison, especially against lights since the lights are so small that damage spreads on them even easier. Its sort of as useful as spraying an ERLL over an enemy mech compared to beaming a single component with a pulse laser.

[Brain Cancer]

Viktor Drake, on 01 August 2016 - 06:37 PM, said:

Second, I have fairly often just hit mechs that didn't appear to be all that heavily damage or even fully cored and have them just fall to the ground dead. My only explanation for this that my LBX round must have taken out his remaining armor and the remainder crited his engine 3 times and killed him or perhaps crit his cockpit and killed the pilot. It is very random when this happens but it happens enough I have noticed it dozens of times over a few hundred matches on mechs armed with LBX guns.

Third, often, especially at longer ranges, the spread of the pellets have managed to allow me to hit and cripple mechs sometimes knocking out 2-3 components with a single hit.

I'm just gonna stop you right here.

One, you can't crit engines to death. Hits to engines have no effect. None. Zero. Yay, PGI. I don't even think you can cockpit someone considering.

Second, given the incredibly low damage a few pellets will do, you'd have to be already shooting someone into the deep reds of internals to actually destroy two locations in one shot at long ranges, given spread. Or, you end up shooting off a side torso and getting a two-for-one with the arm.

Know what'd have done that better?

Direct fire, pinpoint weaponry.

[Davers]

If PGI wanted crits to matter they should have tripled structure instead of doubling armor. They should also add in the missing crit-able components. Other than keeping the ac10 viable, the shotgun mechanic means all the extra range is pointless.

[Razorfish]

If it was up to me I would double pellet damage. But I’m not in charge... Bummer.


That said any buff would be welcome.

[Mcgral18]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 August 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

Considering I can't since I'm at work, decided to look through the patch notes, and they gave some interesting details.
LBX spread changes
Last SRM spread changes

tl;dr
Inner Sphere LB10-X
• Projectile Spread reduced from 1.3m to 0.9m.
IS SRM/4
• Projectile Spread reduced from 5.2 to 3.5m.
Even with artemis (which reduces spread by 33%), LBX10s have less spread than 4s according to this (McGral, happen to be able to check the files?). Though the context at what range they have this spread is missing, seriously PGI, y u no give context for anything.

34%, BTW
spread=0.66

3.5*.66=
2.31M

LB10x=0.9M


Now, I admit I don't know how range factors into that.

That spread at optimal range? That makes the LBx have tighter spread all around SRM range (which doesn't seem accurate)

Or, as with SRMs, almost instant large spread, then nearly static

Viktor Drake, on 01 August 2016 - 06:37 PM, said:

Second, I have fairly often just hit mechs that didn't appear to be all that heavily damage or even fully cored and have them just fall to the ground dead. My only explanation for this that my LBX round must have taken out his remaining armor and the remainder crited his engine 3 times and killed him or perhaps crit his cockpit and killed the pilot. It is very random when this happens but it happens enough I have noticed it dozens of times over a few hundred matches on mechs armed with LBX guns.

ice trey, on 01 August 2016 - 06:46 PM, said:

I would say keep the damage about the same, but I'd like to see crit chance increased for each pellet.

Crit-seeking was what cluster rounds were made for, after all, and if they can't do their job well, what's the point?

Maybe a fire-rate increase, too.

They already have a 67% chance to Crit from 1 to 3 times
A third of the time, nothing happens

Crit damage is their issue. They need 5 Crits to all hit the same component, to the 1 of a PPC, Gauss, AC10, etc...

[Dago Red]

While I quite like Lbx's as is I realize they're more of a fun choice than a serious choice except for much cases.

I've got three things I think would work to make them competitive butt heir either or because any two of them together would make them too good.

A: Increasing either damage per pellet or pellet count to the point where one does 15 today al damage. This would let it out brawl a arm loading based off fire rate and hear build up differences at close range and be marginally more effective at longer ones.

B: Completely remove spread until it hits the end of optimal range effectively giving it the relationship with a regular ac20 that a Er large has with a normal one.

C: Increase the fire rate and ammo per ton and allow people to use it for more consistently sand blasting mechs down. Almost like a uac that trades lack of jamming for spread.

The idea one person mentioned of having them do straight up double damage to internals wasn't bad either. It would at least make them more consistent than the current crit seeking thing.

[Nightshade24]

meanwhile I am sitting here loving the IS LBX 10 for being lighter and cooler over the AC 10.

TBH my only request for a fix is a universal decrease in LBX spread and increase crit chance...
Wouldn't mind LBX damage increase but nothing over 1.4 per pallet...

[lazytopaz]

my CN9-D loves this topic.
and I know few people who love to run crazy builds like 6xcLBX5/2 on DWF... ;D
So yes. buff LBX

[davoodoo]

Viktor Drake, on 01 August 2016 - 06:37 PM, said:

The second thing I mention is that the damage is unreliable. Sometimes, as I mentioned mechs you hit just seem to die randomly for no reason as I mention I think this is due to a series of lucky crits happening however you can't count on that happening.

You realise that crits do exactly 0 dmg to structure do you??

And even at crit seeking
Flamers will deal 110% damage (0.77 damage) to internal components
Machine Guns will deal 1,350% damage (1.08 damage) per bullet
LB X Autocannons will deal 200% damage (2 damage) per pellet
mgs are clear winner

[Ryllen Kriel]

I'm sure this will anger a lot of people but I see no problem with the Inner Sphere LB X. I even killed a guy at 600 meters a short time ago, which was hilarious.