75 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Not quite. Ballistics will reign.

How do you figure?

If an AC10 draws the same energy as a PPC because both do 10 damage, why would anyone use the AC10?

Because it weighs more and uses ammo

What youre saying makes no sense.

Ballistic weapons seem like theyre on their way out (with the exception of perhaps gauss).

Edited by Khobai, 18 August 2016 - 09:33 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 18 August 2016 - 09:29 PM, said:

How do you figure?

If an AC10 draws the same energy as a PPC because both do 10 damage, why would anyone use the AC10?

Because it weighs more and uses ammo

What youre saying makes no sense.

Ballistic weapons seem like theyre on their way out (with the exception of perhaps gauss).

Where on earth did you get that idea? The energy recharges so fast in the new system that you can have dakka and PPCs together and never trigger heat penalty. If the map you are playing is great for doing a power position strategy, 'Mechs that can do PPC+dakka will dominate. Poptarts will also be common, since those are the counter to power-position. And the counter to pop-tarts is brawl...which is dakka overwatch in conjunction with SRMs.

AC/10 was never good. Fun, solid, but not good.

[Khobai]

Quote

The energy recharges so fast in the new system that you can have dakka and PPCs together and never trigger heat penalty.

but why would you ever use dakka in the new system?

the new system heavily favors high pinpoint damage weapons


problem with dakka weapons is they draw the same energy per point of damage as high pinpoint damage weapons except they spread damage all around instead of putting it in one place.

five AC2s should not have the same energy draw as a PPC for example.

the energy draw system doesnt take that into account. its silly.

Quote

AC/10 was never good. Fun, solid, but not good.

And its still not good. So weapon balance is still terrible. Energy drain has fixed nothing.

Its just going to force everyone back to using Gauss/PPCs.

Edited by Khobai, 18 August 2016 - 09:49 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 18 August 2016 - 09:45 PM, said:

but why would you ever use dakka in the new system?

the new system heavily favors high pinpoint damage weapons


problem with dakka weapons is they draw the same energy as high pinpoint damage weapons except they spread damage all around instead of putting it in one place.

the energy draw system doesnt take that into account. its silly.

Dakka is still going to be strong because of the unhindered cool DPS. 4 AC5s for instance.

[Khobai]

Quote

Dakka is still going to be strong because of the unhindered cool DPS. 4 AC5s for instance.

except AC5s got super nerfed

Inner Sphere and Clan AC/5’s, Clan LB5-X AC’s, and Inner Sphere and Clan U-AC/5’s are receiving some tuning adjustments in this PTS.
• Heat increased from 1.0 to 1.5
• Cooldown increased to 2.3

50% more heat and ~33% less dps (even less dps if you include the cooldown module nerfs)

so yeah dakka isnt that great anymore...

Edited by Khobai, 18 August 2016 - 10:29 PM.

[LowSubmarino]

Its just awesome that this doesnt touch my favorit builds.

At all.

But reducing alphas makes it even stronger as I can make a few small mistakes without getting my torsos blown out instantly.

The ppl here in my cockpit love this change.

It gets all of those 5 girls votes.

And my own vote of course

[DerMaulwurf]

Garfuncle, on 18 August 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

30 damage threshold is too low. It breaks basic weapon combos, gutting laser builds completely. 40 damage threshold is much more reasonable.

The penalty for exceeding the cap is pretty soft though. A 50 point alpha will only get a 10 point heat penalty. Which might be manageable with the new cooldowns.

But I agree that lasers will be hit the hardest, since most other weapons will actually get lower penalties. For example right now firing two AC/20s gives you a penalty of 11.5. This will be reduced to 5 with GH2.0.

It would make sense to reduce energy drain values for weapons that aren't frontloaded.

[Gas Guzzler]

DerMaulwurf, on 18 August 2016 - 11:12 PM, said:

It would make sense to reduce energy drain values for weapons that aren't frontloaded.

Agreed, I would be happy with this and at least assaults getting 40-45 energy.

[meteorol]

You can alpha 5 lpl twice now, which absolutely makes no sense for a system build to prevent high alphas.

Also the AC 5 giganerf is way too harsh. I get that boating AC5 was the loophole in their System, but giganerfing a weapon because 2 or 3 mechs can effectively boat them isn't the way to go, imo.

[Widowmaker1981]

Well, i havent downloaded the PTS (yet, i think i will test this one actually) but..

id assume 2xPPC + 2xAC5 is now the absolute gold standard weapon load. anything else should just be a poor substitute, because why would i use lasers with burn durations making my damage spread and forcing me to be exposed for longer than i need when the only advantage for doing so (more dmg) is removed?

Id also assume that brawling assaults are utterly useless now, since you can bring maximum splat on a medium.. lol. The time of the Splatlas is well and truly over..

Clan assault AC boats just got bent over, because you cant use the double tap anymore, so wtf is the point of using them over the IS versions with PPFLD?

Basically... needs testing but sounds like heaven for lights and mediums, and close to the end for assaults.

[Rakshasa]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 18 August 2016 - 04:47 PM, said:

I'm sensing a lot of exaggeration in this post. What was the Onions loadout?

If it sounds exaggerated then I'm sorry, I'm just recounting events as I saw them happen. I never got a look at the Onion's loadout as I died before I locked it again. I'm guessing there was at least one gauss rifle involved though, I didn't see any lasers or AC rounds or whatnot.

For the record, I'm not paranoid much <.< >.>. I'm used to seeing bits of my mechs fall off to high damage alphas. That one was just incredibly effective by normal standards, and that kind of focused damage is anti-fun as far as I'm concerned. Hence why I'm willing to give this new power draw thing a try before condemning it.

Vxheous Kerensky, on 18 August 2016 - 05:17 PM, said:

I call bs on that Orion IIc 800m taking all your ST armor in 1 hit. Warhammer has 54 ST armor up front if you front-load

Same as above, call BS if you want - I'm not here to convince you. I don't front-load all my armour, I use a rough 2/3 front, 1/3 rear ratio. 44 front armour, and it just disappeared. Poof.

Andi Nagasia, on 18 August 2016 - 05:28 PM, said:

im sorry sir it seems like you replied to the wrong topic, i dont see how this has anything to do with the PTS?
unless you are saying you support the PTS Energy Draw system which moves to reduce high Alphas?

Yes, in the last paragraph. Right now I'd support having our gun barrels filled with pigeon nests and glue if it meant we could have long-lasting, low TTK matches and not the high alpha, rekt-in-seconds style meta we have at the moment.

Edited by Rakshasa, 19 August 2016 - 02:29 AM.

[Yosharian]

Lmao you think people will brawl under this system? Hahhaa

[Stone Wall]

From watching Kanajashi's stream, it looks like lasers are fine. Gauss doesn't have the charge, but has longer reload and less range. That tells me Gauss will be replaced with ER PPC. It could be heat wars with more Mechs throwing in flamers while their team mates are sniping with PPCs.

I feel for those Assaults. People thought the rescale on Lights was bad, this is much worse for them. Now the best of the best will be able to still get their damage and kills, but less skilled and new pilots will be shutting down left and right. If PGI doesn't make Trial Mechs that go with Energy Draw, then the potatoes will increase in the oven.

[Y E O N N E]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 August 2016 - 12:41 AM, said:

Well, i havent downloaded the PTS (yet, i think i will test this one actually) but..

id assume 2xPPC + 2xAC5 is now the absolute gold standard weapon load. anything else should just be a poor substitute, because why would i use lasers with burn durations making my damage spread and forcing me to be exposed for longer than i need when the only advantage for doing so (more dmg) is removed?

Id also assume that brawling assaults are utterly useless now, since you can bring maximum splat on a medium.. lol. The time of the Splatlas is well and truly over..

Clan assault AC boats just got bent over, because you cant use the double tap anymore, so wtf is the point of using them over the IS versions with PPFLD?

Basically... needs testing but sounds like heaven for lights and mediums, and close to the end for assaults.

3x PPC
2x PPC + 2x UAC/5 (energy recharge is so fast that penalty will not trigger)
2xPPC + 2x AC/5
2xPPC + AC/10 in a pinch

Even 2xPPC+Gauss is fine since the penalty is so small. Worse for Clan, since their cERPPC have a greater draw than isERPPC (personally, I think that's fair given the increased damage on them and the decreased weight on all their stuff).

That being said, that's actually how the game is on live, sans 3xPPC. The lasers didn't actually suffer in this PTS (yet), except the biggest Clan alphas...which were already obsolete on live servers. Actually, most laser builds are now more sustainable than they were before.

Khobai, on 18 August 2016 - 09:45 PM, said:

but why would you ever use dakka in the new system?

the new system heavily favors high pinpoint damage weapons


problem with dakka weapons is they draw the same energy per point of damage as high pinpoint damage weapons except they spread damage all around instead of putting it in one place.

five AC2s should not have the same energy draw as a PPC for example.

the energy draw system doesnt take that into account. its silly.

What makes you think dakka and PPFLD are mutually exclusive? Last time I checked, an isUAC/5 is PPFLD; I don't lose anything except slots/weight when choosing to combine that with PPCs instead of UAC/5. Even the Clan UAC/5 is close enough to FLD.

And I don't disagree with the rest of your post there, I'm just saying...dakka is going to survive, even thrive.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 19 August 2016 - 05:16 AM.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 18 August 2016 - 09:29 PM, said:

How do you figure?

If an AC10 draws the same energy as a PPC because both do 10 damage, why would anyone use the AC10?

Because it weighs more and uses ammo

What youre saying makes no sense.

Ballistic weapons seem like theyre on their way out (with the exception of perhaps gauss).

My comment was in response to YG's suggestion to also lower the heat cap to 30. Clanners will be hard pressed to rely on their large energy weapons if they have to worry about both heat and energy draw ... and gauss just lost it's charge up.

Edited by Mystere, 19 August 2016 - 06:48 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 19 August 2016 - 06:45 AM, said:

My comment was in response to YG's suggestion to also lower the heat cap to 30. Clanners will be hard pressed to rely on their large energy weapons if they have to worry about both heat and energy draw ... and gauss just lost it's charge up.

My proposal was meant to say get rid of the energy mechanic entirely and do it all in the heat mechanic. Low cap + high dissipation has the same end result as this overly complicated solution we see in PTS. If they want to do a real-world-like form of power management, though, I would like that, too.

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 August 2016 - 06:53 AM, said:

My proposal was meant to say get rid of the energy mechanic entirely and do it all in the heat mechanic. Low cap + high dissipation has the same end result as this overly complicated solution we see in PTS. If they want to do a real-world-like form of power management, though, I would like that, too.

In that case, my original comment still stands: ballistics will reign.

[Gas Guzzler]

Stone Wall, on 19 August 2016 - 02:43 AM, said:

From watching Kanajashi's stream, it looks like lasers are fine. Gauss doesn't have the charge, but has longer reload and less range. That tells me Gauss will be replaced with ER PPC. It could be heat wars with more Mechs throwing in flamers while their team mates are sniping with PPCs.

I feel for those Assaults. People thought the rescale on Lights was bad, this is much worse for them. Now the best of the best will be able to still get their damage and kills, but less skilled and new pilots will be shutting down left and right. If PGI doesn't make Trial Mechs that go with Energy Draw, then the potatoes will increase in the oven.

IS lasers might be okay, but there is no way Clan lasers have a chance.

A lot could be fixed by giving lasers less energy draw and assaults more energy.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 19 August 2016 - 07:04 AM.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 August 2016 - 07:03 AM, said:

A lot could be fixed by giving ... assaults more energy.

Assaults are already beastmode on the PTS when equipped with PPC, Gauss, and/or dakka builds. They aren't weak or in need of help.

Assaults with more energy sounds cool on paper, but in-game it would break things.

[Stone Wall]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 August 2016 - 07:03 AM, said:

IS lasers might be okay, but there is no way Clan lasers have a chance.

A lot could be fixed by giving lasers less energy draw and assaults more energy.

I'm a IS mainer in this game, so I wouldn't try and guess about Clan weapons. I don't think Assaults need any help. There are other weights to play.