196 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 01:05 PM, said:

It isn't even balanced currently, and you think by disallowing it to be group fired is magically going to make this more balanced? By disallowing it from group firing effectively, it needs to be boosted more because it is already lackluster for an energy weapon.

The balance mechanism is the fact that it is only .5 ton and 1 crit slot.
I never said disallow group fire, I said that not allowing them to all hit the same spot when fired at once (for the reasons I gave) is better for the game.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 01:05 PM, said:

The implication was that someone who knows how to spread damage should not be dying to two alphas from a single person. Lights are one exception, but teams should not be going for them first in a push, so that means that it is two alphas that aren't targeting the enemy assaults.

Remind me, how do you spread damage to the legs, again? Also, it doesn't have to be a push, it happens quite often while adjusting for a push.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 01:05 PM, said:

Viridian Bog, Tourmaline, old Frozen, Forest Colony. Crimson, Canyon, and Caustic are a bit special in that they tend to be a bit more flexible allowing for multiple strats sometimes.

That did not answer the question. How many of those currently playable maps are bad for long-range 'mechs? FP maps especially so.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 01:05 PM, said:

No, it is damage, that is all there is too it. Close range mechs should simply do more damage, that has been the trade-off since FASA realized their mistake in Vengeance by giving all the lasers the same DPT with the smaller ones just being slightly more heat efficient.

No, it is accuracy, that is why there were to-hit modifiers. The Gauss Rifle has both range AND damage, (with the added benefit of no heat)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

The balance mechanism is the fact that it is only .5 ton and 1 crit slot.

That may be the mechanism, but that isn't what makes balanced, because it isn't balanced to begin with. Two small lasers aren't even equal to a single medium laser, and you want to make group fire less useful in turn making two small lasers even worse in comparison to a single medium laser?

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

Remind me, how do you spread damage to the legs, again?

Unless the whole team is focusing you, you shouldn't need your leg armor to sponge two alphas from one mech unless you are just using a bad mech. That said, some mechs can spread damage to the legs by abusing jump jets.

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

Also, it doesn't have to be a push, it happens quite often while adjusting for a push.

If you are getting shot adjusting for a push, you are adjusting wrong (or your DC made the wrong call).

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

That did not answer the question. How many of those currently playable maps are bad for long-range 'mechs? FP maps especially so.

Viridian Bog, Tourmaline, old Frozen, and Forest. I don't count FP because it is a broken and bad game mode that doesn't belong in a balance discussion like this.

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

No, it is accuracy, that is why there were to-hit modifiers.

You are talking TT, I'm talking Mechwarrior. Two different realities to keep in mind, granted Gauss has been a problem in both.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 August 2016 - 01:33 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 01:12 PM, said:

Exactly, so you should be pushing for better projectile velocities like we had in the MW4 days (where AC20s were 2000m/s and Gauss was 3200m/s).

Well, I'm not pushing for anything these days, because I'm hardly ever on Twitter

But if projectile velocities were better, it wouldn't be such an issue that ballistic weapons aren't hitscan, so it would be easier to get synergy going with an AC5 + large laser, for example. Yay stock Rifleman.

[Hotthedd]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

That may be the mechanism, but that isn't what makes balanced, because it isn't balanced to begin with. Two small lasers aren't even equal to a single medium laser, and you want to make group fire less useful in turn making two small lasers even worse in comparison to a single medium laser?

Who says that 2 small lasers must equal one medium laser? Because they are both 1 ton?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

Unless the whole team is focusing you, you shouldn't need your leg armor to sponge two alphas from one mech unless you are just using a bad mech. That said, some mechs can spread damage to the legs by abusing jump jets.

Most mediums and lights cannot take more than two GR/PPC combo alphas to the legs and still be in good shape.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

If you are getting shot adjusting for a push, you are adjusting wrong (or your DC made the wrong call).

So getting shot from across the map is always due to the player getting shot being a bad player, noted. It could not possibly be because long range alpha spam is too easy.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

Viridian Bog, Tourmaline, old Frozen, and Forest.

Really? Old Frozen is currently playable? Long range snipers are not viable on Viridian Bog?, Tourmaline?, perhaps less so on Forest, but they are certainly not at any disadvantage.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

You are talking TT, I'm talking Mechwarrior. Two different realities to keep in mind, granted Gauss has been a problem in both.

TT and MechWarrior are both fruit from the same tree. It is disingenuous to pretend that they have nothing in common.

[PhoenixFire55]

Alistair Winter, on 22 August 2016 - 12:51 PM, said:

People have different objections depending on their preference. Some people say TTK is the problem, other people say TTK is fine. Some people want a more complex game, other people don't. So I'm not going to discuss what the REAL problem with MWO is. I'm just here to argue against the idea that boating and alphastrikes are inevitable.

Its dumb, because TTK can't be anything but a sympthom. And 99% of those people saying whatever they are saying about TTK can't even define what TTK is. The entire TTK talk is thus meaningless.

I don't think anyone is going to argue that boating / alphas are inevitable because given enough crutches you can turn this game into machinegunwarrior online without any alphas at all. But do we really want it? Question I'm always asking people is why they are crying so hard about alphas and stuff when all these people do when you see them in game is hide and play peek-a-boo. No sh!t sherlock alphamechs are gonna win this kind of game, not because they are OP, but because YOU make them so ...

In a 1v1 duel situation TTK is perfectly fine, any tears people have about TTK are tears flowing after they decide to peek into a firing line of 3-5 enemy mechs. The way people play this game, i.e. the "I-dont-give-a-fk-about-my-teammates" mentality is the problem, because when your team is loaded with SRM brawlers and heavy DPS mechs and actually makes a coordinated push those alphamechs evaporate faster than your LPL cooldown, but when nobody wants to take damage and waits till his buddies start to - it leads to the kind of trash poking gameplay we are having.

TT is balanced because in TT you can't "poke", i.e. be on two grids during the same turn, and because weapons hit random locations, unless special circumstances.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

Who says that 2 small lasers must equal one medium laser? Because they are both 1 ton?

Umm, common sense? A one slot/ton weapon that takes up a hardpoint better be at least equivalent if not worse than two weapons that takes up two slots together, are 1 ton total, and take up two hardpoints....otherwise it is a pretty pointless weapon.

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

Most mediums and lights cannot take more than two GR/PPC combo alphas to the legs and still be in good shape.

Then you aren't using terrain to your advantage, currently it is better to attempt and focus fire a mech through the torso than to focus on the legs because someone can hide there leg and abuse the stupid damage transfer reduction allowing them to last way longer than they should've.

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

So getting shot from across the map is always due to the player getting shot being a bad player, noted.

If you are positioned in such a way that you can not return fire but exposed yourself to the enemy, yes, it is do to pilot positioning issue. The fact you don't think you should get hit when you expose yourself to the enemy even at range is a little odd.

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

Really? Old Frozen is currently playable? Long range snipers are not viable on Viridian Bog?, Tourmaline?, perhaps less so on Forest, but they are certainly not at any disadvantage.

I wish old frozen was playable

Yes, bog is very supportive of pushes, especially dakka. The only way to really utilize long range is to have all jump capable mechs go up on top of the island plateau things and scatter yourselves out, and even then, that only protects you from brawlers, not push mechs. Tourmaline is definitely a disadvantage to take range on conquest because of all the structure quirks and dakka it is hard to actually situate yourself in way you can sufficiently whittle a push dec down, same with Forest.

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

TT and MechWarrior are both fruit from the same tree. It is disingenuous to pretend that they have nothing in common.

It is also disingenuous to pretend like they have everything in common.....

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 August 2016 - 01:53 PM.

[SOL Ranger]

Neither boating nor alpha is inevitable, nor is it necessary to add more restrictions, especially sized hardpoints as is suggested would merely bring down enjoyable customisation to a minimum getting us all stuck with the various limited configurations the designer envisions when making the thing.

Rather, entertain these suggestions individually or as a whole:

• Energy weapons(and gauss) no longer fire when energy isn't available, the true generator concept without heat scaling.(disallows alpha and reduces desire for energy boating)
  
• Maximum ammo loading capacity is introduced putting limits to how much ammo can be loaded at any point in time at once, similar to energy but for missiles and ballistics, disallowing both high alphas(in prolonged combat, initial alpha is still there) and reducing boating effectively, *as proposed by Navid earlier.
  
• Ballistic ammunition loading takes 30% longer time for every body part it has to pass through to reach the weapon itself(creating a significant ballistics property and compromise, with a desire to load ammo with the weapon directly and making amassing ammo everywhere quite ineffective unless it is used for misc/alternate intermittent use).
  
• Individual and separate ballistics weapon heat tolerances, making weapons themselves stop firing when they(the weapon itself, not the mech) overheat, combined with applying heavy heat penalties for heavy weapons such that the mech still runs but the weapons themselves stop when used too much and thus provide a more situational short term use rather than a reliable use.as an only main armament, 75% of heat being absorbed by the weapon for its own heat tolerance and 25% going to the mech heat system(giving slight incentive to bring weapon variation when they are not able to fire, also the current limited hardpoints will make having further ballistics as the alternatives very difficult)
  
• Ultra weapons no longer have double tap/jam mechanics, but simply allow 90% higher weapon heat capacity(or lower heat without the above change) than the normal versions due to their alternating fire on two barrels.(lowers ballistic "alpha" burst to reasonable levels)
  
• All regular lasers now burn for their whole cooldown duration like true beam lasers and their range is increased by 50%.(reducing burst and "alpha", converting it directly into pure sustained dps and making the firing method more different)
  
• Pulse weapon range reduced by 35%(making weapon combination for "alpha" less practically useful and gives a stronger weapon identity as an alternative system)
  
• All lasers apply 5% of their damage as heat to a target.(to create more incentive to properly actively manage heat and thus use heat efficient weapons as alternates)
  
• High mech heat makes makes the armour more malleable, causing a mech to take more damage from ballistics and explosions by up to 25% at some significant point of heat, this curve where hardly noticeable at lower levels then starting at 75% becoming a serious thing to take into account on a hot and in effect a rather suicidal build for frontline action.(creates a significant incentive to keep heat on the lower stages by combining weaponry and managing it intelligently)
  
• PPC weaponry now cause a mech that fires them to be highlighted on enemy radar up to 1km for 5 seconds regardless of ECM or cover, half of the same effect is applied to the target, multiple discharges prolongs the signature, PPC also now no longer generates any heat and is a "cold weapon", but instead requires significantly more energy to fire than lasers.(allows the weapon as a good alternative for otherwise high heat long range builds but definitely risky to fire simultaneously as it exposes you or in a prolonged way without heavy AMS cover and also outright very risky for boating)
  
• Flame throwers now also applies a heat vulnerability of 1% increased damage taken from ballistic and explosion damage for every flamer effect applied on the target(creating an incentive to use the weapons actively both as an overheater but also for compromising armour, giving an interesting mix of weapons to be used with synergy)
  
• Ballistic and missile weapons gain 50% higher ammo capacity(to push them even more as reasonable alternative weapons as heavy ammo is usually a killing point for mixed builds and also allows room for heatsinks and laser additions to otherwise ballistic boats).
  
• Base heatsink heat capacity is increased by 200% but heatsink dissipation is reduced by 50%, heat shutdown time is increased by 100% making it much more dangerous to go above, also heat override would allow you to keep fighting for a while when above the limit but you would be guaranteed to die doing so as heat shutdown is there to save your life(to make heatsinks less important and make heat management a more prolonged interaction rather than a single second affair that happens a hundred times in a game when being optimal, giving more incentive to carry alternative low heat weapons as well as a main armament when necessary, because heat dissipates much slower you can't rely on high end boating heat heavy builds forever)
  
• All maximum potential armour is increased by 25%(to directly reduce TTK and take the edge off by reducing relative alpha effectively).

The key is making weapons and weapon systems significantly different, give them noticeable drawbacks and benefits that cannot easily be simultaneously practical, like LRM functions quite well as a secondary weapon already but still benefits from boating because there are no drawbacks made for its boating, it is still so inherently different that it offers benefits that complement other weapons well. So to make LRM a more desirable mixed build weapon you would want to give it something more even beyond that and add drawbacks, like the above suggestion with missile loading capacity, while still allowing bursty play it would stop excessive boating to be useful in many practical ways.

Also other ways of making it more unique would involve remaking ECM/targeting completely so I won't go into that too much, but essentially it would center around creating a stackable focus spread area ECM effect and lock enhancement durations that do the same while allowing targeting in many more cases than we see today, also taking radar deprivation to do the same of one stack but for only the mech itself, but again that's another topic.


*Disclaimer: Reserved for brainfarts and tiredness, figures in the examples are placeholders intended to illustrate a concept and present it for discussion, those figures could well be very different in a final reiterated and reasoned solution.

[Killian De Morte]

To counter the problem of pixel-perfect Alpha strikes - could they not have screen-shake like they put on jumpjets to counteract the poptart era ? That was their go-to fix back then and the code is in place.

The mechanism could be linked to the number of weapons fired in a single 1 second time frame combined with the damage multiplier - so hammering away with multiple Ac5/Ac10/PPC/uAC's/Pulse lasers etc would shake your aim as you alpha-ed them.

Yes they are big firing platforms - but can they compensate for rolling fire from big guns in totally different locations - arms/shoulders/torso's all at the same time ? ( and yes I know lasers have no "kick-back" - but hey magic-space-laser-kickback - just because )

Considered placement of a shot or couple of shots would then outweigh the sandblast effect you get from alpha fire.

[Hotthedd]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

Umm, common sense? A one slot/ton weapon that takes up a hardpoint better be at least equivalent if not worse than two weapons that takes up two slots together, are 1 ton total, and take up two hardpoints....otherwise it is a pretty pointless weapon.

Common sense if you are only looking at two metrics out of 10 (tonnage and damage). Recycle rate and burn time could be tuned to make 2 small lasers better than one medium, though to be honest, the medium laser has always been the weapon with the best tonnage/damage/heat ratio in Battletech.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

Then you aren't using terrain to your advantage, currently it is better to attempt and focus fire a mech through the torso than to focus on the legs because someone can hide there leg and abuse the stupid damage transfer reduction allowing them to last way longer than they should've.

Let's not personalize this, as I am not talking about me, I am coming from a game balance/fun perspective. Getting gimped from across the map by an enemy you cannot even hit leads to new players quitting the game due to frustration. Taking damage is one thing, but never actually getting to meaningfully participate in the fight is another.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

If you are positioned in such a way that you can not return fire but exposed yourself to the enemy, yes, it is do to pilot positioning issue. The fact you don't think you should get hit when you expose yourself to the enemy even at range is a little odd.

I never said that you should not get hit when exposed at range. And again, I am not talking about me. I do think that getting hit by multiple long range weapons in the same component from ONE trigger pull is a flawed mechanic, AND is not part of the BT Universe (of which MechWarrior is a part)

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

I wish old frozen was playable

Me too.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

Yes, bog is very supportive of pushes, especially dakka. The only way to really utilize long range is to have all jump capable mechs go up on top of the island plateau things and scatter yourselves out, and even then, that only protects you from brawlers, not push mechs. Tourmaline is definitely a disadvantage to take range on conquest because of all the structure quirks and dakka it is hard to actually situate yourself in way you can sufficiently whittle a push dec down, same with Forest.

So, Bog can be played effectively by long range. Tourmaline as well, but you move the goalposts when you specify conquest. In general, conquest is not conducive to long range (sometimes Crimson, and usually Polar and new Frozen)

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

It is also disingenuous to pretend like they have everything in common.....

They have much more in common than they don't.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

Recycle rate and burn time could be tuned to make 2 small lasers better than one medium

Then they would be balanced would they not? There would be trade-offs, but currently there are none, and you want to throw some sort of spread into the mix exacerbating the balance issue?

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

Getting gimped from across the map by an enemy you cannot even hit leads to new players quitting the game due to frustration.

I never said that you should not get hit when exposed at range. And again, I am not talking about me. I do think that getting hit by multiple long range weapons in the same component from ONE trigger pull is a flawed mechanic, AND is not part of the BT Universe (of which MechWarrior is a part)

That is part of the game sadly and why new players shouldn't start off with short range. By taking short range, you take the risk that you need to get within range to use your weapons. The problem is, that this is a team game, so if a team isn't setup or willing to press the W key and understand how to use cover to avoid getting shot at leading up to the push, then they should expect casualties, because when a team actually does press the W key and doesn't let off and actually knows how to use cover, it can be absolutely brutal.

Slight note, Gauss and ERPPC can be hard to land an alpha on the same component at range due to the velocity de-sync so it isn't as common as you seem to think for a single component to get hit, especially lights since they move so fast. It also isn't often one trigger pull unless the enemy is semi-stationary, otherwise you are firing them separately due to having to adjust for movement.

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

So, Bog can be played effectively by long range.

Long range on Bog is more a gimmick than an actual strat, it works once for that surprise and after that, you should lose every time.

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

Tourmaline as well, but you move the goalposts when you specify conquest. In general, conquest is not conducive to long range (sometimes Crimson, and usually Polar and new Frozen)

Conquest is the comp mode for a reason, it doesn't allow for camping one spot on the edge of the map, and it doesn't create the assault cap race scenario. It is much more of a dynamic game mode than people realize, at least when teams are actually coordinated. I did not specify conquest you are correct, but it is the only game mode that promotes decent gameplay atm.

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

They have much more in common than they don't.

Doesn't really mean the same rules will apply.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 August 2016 - 02:46 PM.

[InspectorG]

jss78, on 22 August 2016 - 12:14 AM, said:

A couple of thoughts.

First, you discuss boating without mentioning convergence, but aren't the two inextricably linked? Here you can boat a sh*t-ton of weapons, all over the different parts of your 'mech, and they magically hit a single pixel at all ranges. In TT you'll suffer of the sandblast effect because each weapon hits a random component. This makes "big weapons" devastating in TT, but in MWO it's all about how many of your favourite weapons you can boat.

Second, are mixed builds ever really that good, or do they happen in TT because people mostly play with stock 'mechs?

To expand on this -- my experience with TT is with stock loadouts only, but when modifications ARE allowed, isn't there a tendency towards more focused and less mixed builds in TT as well? When mods are discussed, "remove X, add ML" seems a common theme. Does anyone really view that AC/laser/SRM/LRM Shadow Hawk as the optimal fighting machine, but that's what they use because they're thrown in it, and against other stock 'mechs it works fine anyway?

You are omitting BT's critical hit system, which is more brutal than MWO's.

MWO doesnt worry about engine crits, cockpit hits, etc.

Some of those various weapons were used differently in BT than in MWO.

SRMs for example:

In MWO, x1 SRM6 is kinda a joke.

BT, it gives you, on average, 3-5 chances to get a crit on an open component when in range. Also, that 20+ damage received pilot roll. That crit hit, unlike MWO, has the same effect as any other weapon to remove equips or shut a mech down.

So yeah, in MWO, a Cicada X5 with 4ML+1SRM6 seems silly. You rather try to maximize damage output and synch ranges and cooldowns instead.

In BT the above loadout makes more sense. 4ML do do 5pt clusters, SRM6 to either fish crits or sandblast lightly armored lights/mediums.

[LordNothing]

i dont think either strategy should be flat out prevented. limiting to 2 gauss rifles for example is a flat out block to boating more than 2 of them, and i dont think anyone wants that. it would only be a matter of time till we start seeing limits on other high end weapons as well, ac20s, ppcs and pulse lasers might all have caps. thats going to destroy the mech building aspect of the game.

boating should actually be permitted (its actually neccisary on some varients), it would come with its own pros and cons if you did. all your weapons are in lockstep but maybe you get some heat or longer cooldowns or something to level it out. mixed builds same thing, lower penalties at the expense of more complex fire control.

high alpha should be more or less the same. doing so should put you in a state that renders you incapable of firing for many seconds, either because heat or perhaps extended cds, perhaps also self damage should be employed to limit number and damage of alpha strikes you may perform (see direstar). dps on the other hand spreads it out over time, and its con in face time. perhaps throw on some inaccuracy when dps gets too high. its pros being its very disruptive to the target, makes it hard for them to return fire.

now some of these are already in place, others might be fixed by energy draw, and some need their own mechanics. all need tweaking so that the pros and cons are in proper proportions.

Edited by LordNothing, 22 August 2016 - 03:00 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

I do think that getting hit by multiple long range weapons in the same component from ONE trigger pull is a flawed mechanic, AND is not part of the BT Universe

It is part of the MechWarrior universe, so I'm good with it.

Energy draw (aside from some lore fluff about gauss rifles) isn't part of the BT universe either, why aren't you up in arms about how that is a "flawed mechanic"? Its not even part of the MechWarrior universe. How could you be indifferent about that but not be okay with people shooting multiple long range weapons accurately at once?

[LordKnightFandragon]

In a game where the only target is mechs and the only thing to do is kill other mechs, then yeah, alpha striking mixed builds are inevitable, as each person tries to find thier niche way of killing quickly. Plus, we have fixed maps with fixed and always known enemy makeups.

Mixed builds, and all that are only worth anything when you have mixed target environments as will be the case in HBS Battletech. Mixed builds are also viable when you dont know what situation you will be in and what targets or composition you will meet.

You wont take that 6 PPC Stalker into a city chalk full of tanks, it will be way to hot and inefficient. You will find yourself out numbered, over heated and dead. You also wouldnt take that 6 PPC stalker into a place where there is alot of light mechs with infantry, air power all working together. You cant stop the infantry for ****, cuz no, 10 heat for 1 infantry guy is not worth it when there is like 120 of them. The light mechs will just swarm you.

So, you take the stock builds in this game, like in the HBS preview, they showed the Marauder, 2 PPCs, 2 ML, 1 AC5. AC5 probably for lighter vehicles and maybe aircraft or light mechs. 2 PPCs for long range punch. 2 ML to back up the PPCs should you be to hot or have targets in close you can still fight back.

Also, the whole "a commander wont send his troops down unprepared", while that is true, a commander and a group can never tell when, where or why a conflict will occur. So, you outfit your entire lance for open field combat, LRMs, AC5s, AC2s, PPCs, Gauss Rifles, and as your on the march, walking through a portion of land that is mountainous or closer, cuz lets face it, not every ounce of terrain in an area is conveniently set up to favor your force, and suddenly you get jumped by a pair of Hunchbacks that were just laying in Ambush. I mean, the enemy is going to play to his strengths as well.

So, you build mixed builds to prepare for any given situation as best you can. You run in a Lance of mechs each with mixed builds that try to cover or lessen the weaknesses in another mech's build. Your Medium/Heavy lance, lets say its a Hunchback, Centurion, Catapult and a Warhammer. The HBK is short range, while the WHM is longer range and weaker on the armor. The Cent is just a good all rounder that can deal ok at just about any range, offering support to either the HBK to cover it's range issues, or in close to help the Warhammer and its heat to cool off. The Catapult just keeps people's heads down while the Mediums cover the Catapult.

Its really not about just 1 mech, which in this game is all we have to worry about, so yes, boating and alphas are inevitable given the situation of the game's core gameplay. I seriously dont think we will have the same issues in HBS BT. Then again, Mechwarrior always was better as a turn based or RTS style, it just doesnt do the game proper justice to make it a FPS.....

[Hotthedd]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 02:45 PM, said:

Then they would be balanced would they not? There would be trade-offs, but currently there are none, and you want to throw some sort of spread into the mix exacerbating the balance issue?

It does not exacerbate the balance issue, they are tools that can be used to balance the weapons, OTHER than just tonnage and crits.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 02:45 PM, said:

That is part of the game sadly and why new players shouldn't start off with short range. By taking short range, you take the risk that you need to get within range to use your weapons. The problem is, that this is a team game, so if a team isn't setup or willing to press the W key and understand how to use cover to avoid getting shot at leading up to the push, then they should expect casualties, because when a team actually does press the W key and doesn't let off and actually knows how to use cover, it can be absolutely brutal.

Instead of it being "sadly" part of the game, why not fix it?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 02:45 PM, said:

Slight note, Gauss and ERPPC can be hard to land an alpha on the same component at range due to the velocity de-sync so it isn't as common as you seem to think for a single component to get hit, especially lights since they move so fast. It also isn't often one trigger pull unless the enemy is semi-stationary, otherwise you are firing them separately due to having to adjust for movement.

2 Gauss, 3 ERPPCs, 4 LPLs, take your pick. Like I said, heat is no issue when your opponent cannot shoot back.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 02:45 PM, said:

Long range on Bog is more a gimmick than an actual strat, it works once for that surprise and after that, you should lose every time.

The point is that a long range build is not at a disadvantage on any of those maps.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 02:45 PM, said:

Conquest is the comp mode for a reason, it doesn't allow for camping one spot on the edge of the map, and it doesn't create the assault cap race scenario. It is much more of a dynamic game mode than people realize, at least when teams are actually coordinated. I did not specify conquest you are correct, but it is the only game mode that promotes decent gameplay atm.

I agree. Sadly enough most players in MW:O do not want to play a mode that isn't deathball.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 02:45 PM, said:

Doesn't really mean the same rules will apply.

It does mean that the same rules will apply much more often than they won't.

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 02:56 PM, said:

It is part of the MechWarrior universe, so I'm good with it.

Energy draw (aside from some lore fluff about gauss rifles) isn't part of the BT universe either, why aren't you up in arms about how that is a "flawed mechanic"? Its not even part of the MechWarrior universe. How could you be indifferent about that but not be okay with people shooting multiple long range weapons accurately at once?

There is no "MechWarrior universe", there were 4 video games and expansions with that title. Those were single player games from the 1980's to the early 2000's.

Where do you get that I am "okay" with Energy draw? I will agree that it is a bandaid that doesn't address the actual issue.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

It does not exacerbate the balance issue, they are tools that can be used to balance the weapons, OTHER than just tonnage and crits.

The point is, if stats were kept the same and we made the transition to this system, its stats would have to be inflated more than they would to balance it in the current environment because the system complicates the balance.

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

Instead of it being "sadly" part of the game, why not fix it?

Because it is necessary for balancing in a coordinated environment, I thought I said that.

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

2 Gauss, 3 ERPPCs, 4 LPLs, take your pick. Like I said, heat is no issue when your opponent cannot shoot back.

The point is that a long range build is not at a disadvantage on any of those maps.

What are you talking about? Long range is far from easy on Bog even if you do make use of the gimmick. It isn't a goto on everything like the brawl meta or poptart meta, it is the most balanced state this game has ever been in.

Sure in PUGs mid-long range is better but that is because brawling and extreme range take coordination which PUGs will never provide, PUG play will always be nothing more than a subset of the coordinated play meta.

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

It does mean that the same rules will apply much more often than they won't.

It doesn't mean anything because a simple dynamic can be turned pants on head in the transition from a turn-based strategy game to an FPS.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 August 2016 - 06:12 PM.

[Hotthedd]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 06:04 PM, said:

The point is, if stats were kept the same and we made the transition to this system, its stats would have to be inflated more than they would to balance it in the current environment because the system complicates the balance.

And the point I am making is there are more balancing tools than just stats.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 06:04 PM, said:

Because it is necessary for balancing in a coordinated environment, I thought I said that.

I do not believe it is necessary. I believe it is a problem that has a solution.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 06:04 PM, said:

What are you talking about? Long range is far from easy on Bog even if you do make use of the gimmick. It isn't a goto on everything like the brawl meta or poptart meta, it is the most balanced state this game has ever been in.

I didn't say easy, I said "viable".

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 06:04 PM, said:

Sure in PUGs mid-long range is better but that is because brawling and extreme range take coordination which PUGs will never provide, PUG play will always be nothing more than a subset of the coordinated play meta.

Okay. But PUG play is where you get new players, and is still the largest majority of the player base.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 06:04 PM, said:

It doesn't mean anything because a simple dynamic can be turned pants on head in the transition from a turn-based strategy game to an FPS.

It means a lot, and although a turn based game simulating 'mech combat has it's differences from a FPS, they are both simulating 'mech combat.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

I didn't say easy, I said "viable".

Once, it is viable once, it is definitely a special case strat.

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

Okay. But PUG play is where you get new players, and is still the largest majority of the player base.

You are correct, PUGs are where you get new players, but rampant is getting one shot where new players play, I used to play in PUGs a lot and even then it was not often you get two shot unless you are specifically playing against really good players.
I'm not saying it doesn't suck, but I'm not saying it is something indicative of a balance or gameplay problem and more something to do with a matchmaker problem.

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

It means a lot, and although a turn based game simulating 'mech combat has it's differences from a FPS, they are both simulating 'mech combat.

And nowhere in that simulation does it specify it has to be chain fire, that is purely something the books added just to add tension despite making no sense at all for combat to be depicted that way.

[Hotthedd]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 07:12 PM, said:

And nowhere in that simulation does it specify it has to be chain fire, that is purely something the books added just to add tension despite making no sense at all for combat to be depicted that way.

The books ARE the lore. And walking one man crew tanks make no sense, but it is the universe in which this game has chosen to be set.
But to me, instant perfect pinpoint precision from multiple multi-ton weapons fired simultaneously makes absolutely no sense.

[Gas Guzzler]

Hotthedd, on 22 August 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

The books ARE the lore. And walking one man crew tanks make no sense, but it is the universe in which this game has chosen to be set.
But to me, instant perfect pinpoint precision from multiple multi-ton weapons fired simultaneously makes absolutely no sense.

There is zero reason that mechanics in the books should have any bearing on MechWarrior, or that MechWarrior has to follow the mechanics of the books.

After all, how would MechWarrior follow the books when the books don't even follow each other. Different authors write combat differently, some include alpha strikes frequently, some include smaller sizes of firing groups and all treat pilot accuracy extremely different. There is no "standard" for mech combat in the lore, its purely author and plot based, and it was never intended to drive the mechanics of a computer game.