196 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimax, on 23 August 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

AC 20 DPS = 5
PTS AC20 DPS ~= 4.35
GR DPS = 2.61
PTS GR DPS = 2.24 (slowly dwindling down to HALF the DPS)

AC20 has 5 DPS currently, and not quite a fair comparison, since the PTS AC20 lost DPS as well now

[SirNotlag]

Hotthedd, on 23 August 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

I disagree. I believe most of the systems from TT would work if done properly, and MW:O could successfully simulate TT's simulation.
I have to ask, though: What exactly about not having instant precise pinpoint Alpha/group fire would have caused you to never play the game?

<shrug> It might matter it might not it would depend on how it is done. If the weapons had some random cone of fire where they just didn't shoot straight I would find that annoying as I feel there would be more luck based than skill. If I'm pointing at a precise point and the lasers veer to the side because the RNG gods hate me then whats the point of using anything aside from LBXs and SRMs if none of the weapons have precision.

If there was some way of still getting shots where I want them such as firing fewer weapons at a time, then I could live with it. I.E. How most other shooters use recoil

My post was directed more at thinking battletech fans where the only ones giving money to the game and disregarding new players.

Edited by SirNotlag, 23 August 2016 - 01:48 PM.

[Ultimax]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 August 2016 - 01:13 PM, said:

AC20 has 5 DPS currently, and not quite a fair comparison, since the PTS AC20 lost DPS as well now

It'll be back down again, but it's also irrelevant.

The crying is winning, you can't even fire 2x PPCs and a single AC 10 without getting a heat penalty on next PTS.

Gauss Rifle is now at 20 energy draw, at 6.7s CD. Lol.

All PPCs CD increased beyond 5s.


Let's see how low the tears can bring allowable alphas and DPS.

Edited by Ultimax, 23 August 2016 - 04:38 PM.

[Davers]

Ultimax, on 23 August 2016 - 04:37 PM, said:

Let's see how low the tears can bring allowable alphas and DPS.

To play Devil's Advocate for a minute...

Wasn't the whole point of this to lower alphas and DPS? Are players mad that PGI is "closing the loopholes" instead of the usual player response of "Stupid PGI, we will all just switch to X now instead of Y and accomplish the same thing!"? Isn't the system moving to a place where smaller strikes will be able to out DPS larger strikes, and not just in a ballistic vs energy kind of way?

Just curious.

[Ultimax]

Davers, on 23 August 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

To play Devil's Advocate for a minute...

Wasn't the whole point of this to lower alphas and DPS? Are players mad that PGI is "closing the loopholes" instead of the usual player response of "Stupid PGI, we will all just switch to X now instead of Y and accomplish the same thing!"? Isn't the system moving to a place where smaller strikes will be able to out DPS larger strikes, and not just in a ballistic vs energy kind of way?

Just curious.

How low though?

Does this need to be chainfire warrior online?


There is a contingent of bads that whale for this game that won't be happy until that's basically what it becomes.


Circle strafing each other in a tickle match so they can feel so stronk in their robots.

[Mavairo]

El Bandito, on 21 August 2016 - 11:50 PM, said:

Sized Hardpoints will make sure only select few mechs can boat larger weapons. And those select few can be brought in line with negative quirks, if need be. No more quad PPC Stalker.

Sized hardpoints will also create additional balancing mechanism when combined with hardpoint inflation, to bring underperforming mech in line with the others.

Some think such a system will still be prone to exploits, but I counter that under SHP balancing becomes easier when compared to unlimited sizes per hardpoint that we have now.

Sized Hard points, true double heat sinks in the engine. Smaller max heat cap... more dissipation, less damage output per shot..
Actually functional armor mechanics, detection radii based on the size of the mech in question (light mechs are more stealthy and are invisible until they are in detection range, med same, heavy same, assault etc... said ranges vary based on Tonnage of the mech), would all go a long ways to fixing the dumpster fire known as mwo.

Edited by Mavairo, 23 August 2016 - 04:54 PM.

[Davers]

Ultimax, on 23 August 2016 - 04:53 PM, said:

How low though?

Does this need to be chainfire warrior online?


There is a contingent of bads that whale for this game that won't be happy until that's basically what it becomes.


Circle strafing each other in a tickle match so they can feel so stronk in their robots.

But you can still have large alpha strikes right? Dual Gauss, even with SHS still works. You can still fire 30 point alpha strikes without problems. You can go over 30 too, if you don't mind paying extra heat. So you can do a 50 damage alpha, just not 3x before you overheat like you can on live. Is it the size or the frequency that you are most concerned with?

[Hotthedd]

SirNotlag, on 23 August 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

If there was some way of still getting shots where I want them such as firing fewer weapons at a time, then I could live with it. I.E. How most other shooters use recoil

That is exactly what I have been advocating.

[SirNotlag]

Hotthedd, on 23 August 2016 - 05:12 PM, said:

That is exactly what I have been advocating.

I would probably like that system better than what the energy draw is attempting. I get its trying to punish the huge laser builds but it currently doesn't stop boating other weapons or people will just boat more of one type of laser like i did with 7 mpl on my thunderbolt ran cooler than it does on live.

With tweaking it might be better but my main issue with it is it hurts mixed builds as well so it discourages mixing even worse than ghost heat.

I honestly think adding more defensive equipment like reflective armour to counter lasers and reactive armour to counter ballistics would encourage mixed builds more as people would not want a single mech to counter all their weapons. The issue with that is how would clans equip them, with their locked loadouts.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Davers, on 23 August 2016 - 04:59 PM, said:

So you can do a 50 damage alpha, just not 3x before you overheat like you can on live.

The only thing that can do that currently is the Gauss/PPC Kodiak, you could easily just add heat to the Gauss and suddenly that becomes only 2 shots before overheat.

[Davers]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 August 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

The only thing that can do that currently is the Gauss/PPC Kodiak, you could easily just add heat to the Gauss and suddenly that becomes only 2 shots before overheat.

I'm confused. My Grasshopper with 3 LPL and 4 medium lasers has a 50 point alpha currently. I wasn't just talking about fld.

[Gyrok]

Hit the Deck, on 22 August 2016 - 12:13 AM, said:

make it so that boating certain amount of weapons past certain point becomes wasteful because you can only effectively fire a number of them.

That is what Ghost heat already does.

[Ultimax]

Davers, on 23 August 2016 - 04:59 PM, said:

But you can still have large alpha strikes right? Dual Gauss, even with SHS still works. You can still fire 30 point alpha strikes without problems. You can go over 30 too, if you don't mind paying extra heat. So you can do a 50 damage alpha, just not 3x before you overheat like you can on live. Is it the size or the frequency that you are most concerned with?

WHM-6R with 2x PPC + 1x AC 10 & 17 DHS Alpha takes me to 40% heat on PTS.

That's 30 points of damage, hardly what I'd call a "large" alpha strike.
Some 30 point alpha strikes are being penalized at this point, it's not just "bigger than 30".


Unless of course its SRM boating, that's apparently OK.

Edited by Ultimax, 25 August 2016 - 03:55 PM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Davers, on 24 August 2016 - 02:42 AM, said:

I'm confused. My Grasshopper with 3 LPL and 4 medium lasers has a 50 point alpha currently. I wasn't just talking about fld.

That build is heat capped after the second alpha.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimax, on 25 August 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

Unless of course its SRM boating, that's apparently OK.

I now wish my Spirit Bear had 8 missile hardpoints now, with the LBX20 now drawing a penalty with the alpha, I'd much rather just boat the really good weapon since I'm going to be forced to split fire anyway. The LBX20 used to be good to supplement your SRM alpha because it avoided any heat penalties, now I'd rather just boat the actually effective weapon and volley fire them.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 August 2016 - 04:37 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Davers, on 24 August 2016 - 02:42 AM, said:

I'm confused. My Grasshopper with 3 LPL and 4 medium lasers has a 50 point alpha currently. I wasn't just talking about fld.

That sort of alpha should be more acceptable because of its limitations (like range) which plays heavily into what it is capable of. There is a reason that Grasshopper fell into disuse in the live client after all.

[Bobzilla]

they are trying to force battles into mechs just face tanking, spray n pray style.

Its just gonna widen the gap in skill levels. Middle will improve over lower, top is going to really soar over middle. Hopefully bads will last a bit longer so as not to complain about the new meta causing pgi to make yet another band aid.

[smokytehbear]

I admit I didn't read any post in the thread except the first one, but I really feel like this is the kind of discussions we need, instead of ED. I totally agree with your statement about MWO being a house of cards, changing the foundation now would probably crash it all, but I could get behind that risk if it was something like this. Everyone seems deadset on major fundamental changes anyway, so why not really fix the real problem instead of another ghost heat bandaid?

Sorry for the interruption of whatever conversation apart from the first post was going on.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I think one way to reduce boating of single weapon types would be to increase the cooling you get from double heatsinks and such.

If I didn't have to run 30 heatsinks to be able to fire 6 CERML twice in a row without melting maybe I'd actually bring some other guns like SRMs for close range or a ballistic for extra DPS. In the current system firing a ballistic would cause my cooling per second to go down and render my mech too hot to be able to also using those lasers, firing an SRM burst and the lasers would also push my heat up high enough that I'd only be able to fire off the SRMs once or twice without overheating afterwards.

Basically if you had the option to effectively mix more than a single energy weapon bigger than a small laser with other guns it would open up more options and people would be less inclined to say "forget the ams, its more useful to just bring a heatsink" I mean its possible currently to overheat in a match while running 34 DHS with just 4 clan ERMLs.

Giving people more reason to have weapons for multiple situations would also help bring up build diversity and more weapon synergy would help. At the moment its a case of why bring an AC5 and an LRM when its easier to just bring two AC5 and not have to worry about dealing with LRM firing habits. With lasers its better to just bring more lasers so you don't have to worry about leading with ballistics and missiles and then hitscanning with lasers.

At the moment there are just a few cases where multiple weapon types work great together. Gauss + Lasers, gauss for little heat and lasers for high heat damage, sad part is its still less effective than just not bringing the gauss in situations where you have enough space to bring heatsinks worth the gauss's weight and gauss just gets weaker and weaker in each patch. SRM6+AC20 works good together because at the moment they have the same cooldowns, similar range profiles, and both are high damage brawling weapons that when combined don't generate massive amounts of heat for their damage.

[Steve Pryde]

Dakota1000, on 26 August 2016 - 01:35 AM, said:

At the moment there are just a few cases where multiple weapon types work great together. Gauss + Lasers, gauss for little heat and lasers for high heat damage, sad part is its still less effective than just not bringing the gauss in situations where you have enough space to bring heatsinks worth the gauss's weight and gauss just gets weaker and weaker in each patch. SRM6+AC20 works good together because at the moment they have the same cooldowns, similar range profiles, and both are high damage brawling weapons that when combined don't generate massive amounts of heat for their damage.

That's why how bigger the mech, less energie weapons is the most effective way. Thats why you see most of the time no energie weaopons on Dire Wolfs, Kodiaks, Mauler and so on. The whole energie dissipation system in MWO is just garbage. A Warhawk runs way more heat sinks in MWO as it should be for example.