170 replies to this topic

[dervishx5]

Khobai, on 24 August 2016 - 07:30 AM, said:

which does absolutely nothing to balance the game

light fusion is still way inferior to clan-XL, which means IS mechs still need their lopsided quirks

the whole point of making IS-XL and C-XL both survive side torso destruction is to get rid of the lopsided quirks

Then delete the clans.

[Khobai]

Quote

Then delete the clans.

why? that makes no sense.

CXL is not the only thing that differentiates clans from IS.

but CXL causes balance issues because the disparity between CXL and ISXL so great that IS has to have lopsided structure quirks to account for it. We dont want the game to be lopsided like that.

Clan and IS should be equal but different, but not so different that one side has to pile on absurd quirks.

Edited by Khobai, 24 August 2016 - 07:46 AM.

[dervishx5]

Khobai, on 24 August 2016 - 07:44 AM, said:

why? that makes no sense.

CXL is not the only thing that differentiates clans from IS

but CXL causes balance issues because the disparity between CXL and ISXL so great that IS has to have lopsided structure quirks to account for it.

We dont want the game to be lopsided like that.

Battletech is lopsided. Either acknowledge that or make clan and IS the same.

[Khobai]

Quote

Battletech is lopsided. Either acknowledge that or make clan and IS the same.

MWO is not battletech. They are completely different games.

In fact most of MWOs problems stem from trying to be too much like battletech rather than trying to be its own game.

Trying to emulate battletech's armor system and heat system for example has caused two of MWO's biggest problems.

For MWO to evolve into a better game it needs to unshackle itself from Battletech.

Edited by Khobai, 24 August 2016 - 07:52 AM.

[dervishx5]

Khobai, on 24 August 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

MWO is not battletech. They are completely different games.

In fact most of MWOs problems stem from trying to be too much like battletech rather than trying to be its own game.

Trying to emulate battletech's armor system and heat system for example has caused two of MWO's biggest problems.

For MWO to evolve into a better game it needs to unshackle itself from Battletech.

Then turn it into Mechwarrior 4 and make IS and Clan basically the same like I said.

[DrxAbstract]

dervishx5, on 24 August 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:

Then turn it into Mechwarrior 4 and make IS and Clan basically the same like I said.

In MW4 IS and Clan were definitely not balanced and the balance in multiplayer sucked. S-U-C-K-E-D

Please stop bringing it up as a method of measurement or an example of viable avenues... Thank you.

Edited by DrxAbstract, 24 August 2016 - 08:03 AM.

[Baeolophus]

I would suggest that certain IS mechs could be given a quirk that requires both side torsos be destroyed when equipping an XL engine. Making it a case by case basis makes sense given that certain chassis basically require a an XL to offer much and yet also have tremendously vulnerable side torsos (cough dragon cough).

I dunno, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me

[dervishx5]

DrxAbstract, on 24 August 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

In MW4 IS and Clan were definitely not balanced and the balance in multiplayer sucked. S-U-C-K-E-D

Please stop bringing it up as a method of measurement or an example of viable avenues... Thank you.

Heatsinks were one type.

Engines were one type. All you adjusted was speed.

You could put clan or IS weapons on any mech.

Armor was the same.

There was no difference between Clan and IS mechs other than name.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DrxAbstract, on 24 August 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

In MW4 IS and Clan were definitely not balanced and the balance in multiplayer sucked.

Depends, vengeance wasn't great at balance period (was definitely a learning experience) and then Mercs came around eventually that helped bridge the gap quite a bit, it was certainly better than MWO before quirks.

As Derv said though, the main difference in tech bases in that game was really just weapons and a few special pieces of equipment (which can be enough for different play styles if you expand it enough).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 August 2016 - 08:14 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Rouken Vordermark, on 23 August 2016 - 08:29 AM, said:

I don't have the numbers on hand, but they don't have the same stats anymore.

Unless Smurfy's been slacking as of late, these are the stats.

DOUBLE HEAT SINK  3 slots - 1t 
CLAN DOUBLE HEAT SINK   2 slots - 1t

[DrxAbstract]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 August 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

Depends, vengeance wasn't great at balance period (was definitely a learning experience) and then Mercs came around eventually that helped bridge the gap quite a bit, it was certainly better than MWO before quirks.

As Derv said though, the main difference in tech bases in that game was really just weapons and a few special pieces of equipment (which can be enough for different play styles if you expand it enough).

Weapon-specific, size-restricted hardpoints were a requirement for that system to function; I'd like to not have Lights and Mediums with multiple single-slot hardpoints combined with 3-6 total slots available.. An AC20/Gauss Raven may not be amazingly effective, but at least you can build one in MWO.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Almond Brown, on 24 August 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

Unless Smurfy's been slacking as of late, these are the stats.

I'll try to dig up the article, but IS has more capacity and i believe equal dissipation.

[dervishx5]

DrxAbstract, on 24 August 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

Weapon-specific, size-restricted hardpoints were a requirement for that system to function; I'd like to not have Lights and Mediums with multiple single-slot hardpoints combined with 3-6 total slots available.. An AC20/Gauss Raven may not be amazingly effective, but at least you can build one in MWO.

So you want your cake and want to eat it too.

There were plenty of light mechs that could carry AC20 sized weapons.

But this is Mechwarrior, right? Not Battletech. If you want a more balanced game you have to sacrifice things.

Or just accept that the game is unbalanced.

Edited by dervishx5, 24 August 2016 - 08:46 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

Rouken Vordermark, on 24 August 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

I'll try to dig up the article, but IS has more capacity and i believe equal dissipation.

You are incorrect, sir... At least partially.

IS DHS: 0.14 H/Sec and 1.5 Cap
Clan DHS: 0.15 H/Sec Dissipation and 1.1 Cap

[Khobai]

yep IS DHS have much higher capacity

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DrxAbstract, on 24 August 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

Weapon-specific, size-restricted hardpoints were a requirement for that system to function;

It isn't required, sized hardpoints don't really impact weapon balance, their job is for flavor.

DrxAbstract, on 24 August 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

An AC20/Gauss Raven may not be amazingly effective, but at least you can build one in MWO.

If you can build that though, why would you ever take a Hollander? Sorry, but there is a reason customization should be limited because currently mechs are too homogeneous which means selling some special mech (like a Hollander) is much harder because other mechs can already do what it can.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

DrxAbstract, on 24 August 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

You are incorrect, sir... At least partially.

IS DHS: 0.14 H/Sec and 1.5 Cap
Clan DHS: 0.15 H/Sec Dissipation and 1.1 Cap

Yeah, and here is the article I mentioned. http://steamcommunit...s/?id=686548357

[DrxAbstract]

dervishx5, on 24 August 2016 - 08:43 AM, said:

So you want your cake and want to eat it too.

There were plenty of light mechs that could carry AC20 sized weapons.

But this is Mechwarrior, right? Not Battletech. If you want a more balanced game you have to sacrifice things.

Or just accept that the game is unbalanced.

Yeah... No, there werent plenty of Lights that could. As I recall, the Adder was the only Light that could due to having triple-slot Omnis. The Owens, Cougar, Osiris, Raven, Flea, Wolfhound and Kit Fox sure as hell couldnt mount a triple-slot Ballistic weapon.

And no, I dont "Want my cake and eat it too." I dont want arbitrarily, universally invalidated Lights/Mediums with markedly OP Heavies/Assaults derived from a game solely based on the ultimate goal of an "Bigger is better" ideology when it's already too pervasive in this game.

[Davison]

Countess, on 23 August 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

Considering XL is a MUST have in pretty much all lights including the Urbie, yeah. I mean, I never ever experienced any component loss in a light because when that happens you're literally dead. I'd like to feel 3 of my 4 weapons gone and still try to kick it with that and How instead of insta-death. I've heard in the lore that XL does not mean you're dead with one side torso gone, but that the engine is vulnerable once that happens. If clans don't die from 1 side torso gone, why us?

Not sure where you read that in lore, but it's actually not true. Three engine hits has always been a kill for a Mech, from tabletop to sim to here. An IS XL takes up three slots in each side torso, which is three hits for a destroyed ST. Hence, the Mech is mission killed.

As far back as I can remember, XL Mechs have always been more prone to such hits, but here in MWO it's more of an issue since your weapons fire isn't hitting at random most of the time. How to fix THAT? Well, I could quote a bit of lore that would have salt arriving in thousand ton lots, but aside from that, I've got nothing at the moment.

Definitely more of a trade-off than it ever was in other venues, for sure.

[dervishx5]

DrxAbstract, on 24 August 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

Yeah... No, there werent plenty of Lights that could. As I recall, the Adder was the only Light that could due to having triple-slot Omnis. The Owens, Cougar, Osiris, Raven, Flea, Wolfhound and Kit Fox sure as hell couldnt mount a triple-slot Ballistic weapon.

And no, I dont "Want my cake and eat it too." I dont want arbitrarily, universally invalidated Lights/Mediums with markedly OP Heavies/Assaults derived from a game solely based on the ultimate goal of an "Bigger is better" ideology when it's already too pervasive in this game.

Kit Fox most certainly could carry LBX20s.

But regardless, Quicksilver pretty much destroyed your reasoning there. Without some sort of weapon size restriction, you can only have so much variety before things are just more of the same.

Anyway, if you want engine balance, then copy MW4 and make everything a standard engine.

Edited by dervishx5, 24 August 2016 - 10:45 AM.