211 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Navid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 10:00 AM, said:

Lol what?
Kodiak is similar to direwolf?
Sorry man, I can not take anything you say about gameplay seriously anymore!

Kodiak is different compared to a dire wolf by a galactic margin.

Being a battlemech, faster speed, faster torso twist rate, further torso twist range, lower arm actuators, Better torso twist profile...

no, seriously. I can not take your word for your testings any more.

Oh, for gods sake. Fight that forumwarrior fight! Must discredit Wintersdark however you can; take what he's saying out of context as much as possible!

Obviously, they play differently. The build possibilities, however, outside of boated ballistics really, are pretty similar between the two. I'm well aware of how they play. I've got around 800 drops in Direwolfs alone; I'm most firmly an Assault pilot, and particularly Clans.

But even on live, the KDK stomps the crap out of Direwolves. The loss of agility is horrible. A comparison is easy enough to make, though - the KDK is just a DWF that can move.

The Direwolf's only advantage over the KDK is in boated ballistics, really. You can still do that, boating LBX, or smaller UAC's (or a combination). You can run lots of lasers, but that's got the same flaws as lots of lasers on a KDK. Both have limited missile support, but it's there. But very generally speaking, anything the DWF can do, the KDK can do better.

ED doesn't bring balance to many mechs that are basically broken right now anyways. It's really hard to find ways to make the DWF compete with the KDK.

[Navid A1]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 09:44 AM, said:

PTS2 has moved away from that. I do strongly think all PPC's where over-nerfed in this PTS, and that needs to be addressed. However, I'm finding pretty much everything else quite effective, with nothing presenting an overwhelming advantage that cannot be matched by other builds. I think that's good for the game.

I'm not seeing you tweeting that to Russ.
Reinforcing the idea that you are giving biased feedback to PGI.

[Wintersdark]

Navid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

It is better than 2LPL 2UAC10... it is way cooler. (LPLs generate heat by themselves remember... convolute fire ftw)

The time between shells are 0.11 seconds, meaning that all shots land in 0.55 seconds (and you get 30 heat penalty as a result)
Yet with 2LPL + 2UAC10s your firing window is larger with higher heat (20 heat from LPLs + around 30 from penalty)

2 UAC10 and 2 LPL is bad, no doubt. It just doesn't work, you're better off just firing the UAC10's. But I addressed this above. Once you've got 2 UAC10's, adding more weaponry doesn't help you a whole lot, because UAC10's both add a lot of burst AND a lot of DPS. With that said, you CAN add LRM's very effectively (with LRM issues, at least), and you've the option to switch to LBX and pack in more DF weaponry.

[TKSax]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

the KDK is just a DWF that can move.

LOL

[Wintersdark]

Navid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

I'm not seeing you tweeting that to Russ.
Reinforcing the idea that you are giving biased feedback to PGI.

I'm going to write a post about what I think should change after a couple days of testing, exactly like I did last time.

I haven't sent ANY recommendations to Russ yet, because untested recommendations aren't going to be listened to as much as tested ones.

But really, continue thinking I'm some, what, paid shill? Just trying to make PGI happy. It's not like I'm getting anything out of this, all I care about is the game I love being more fun for me.

I do have a lot of recommendations, and I will post them; probably tonight. At that point, I'll also tweet the major ones to Russ.

My posts thus far have been about the system as it stands now, not where it should go.

Think I enjoy having my cERPPC's being utter trash? No. I don't like them much now either, to be honest, and didn't like them in PTS1. I *HAVE* tweeted Russ previously about them in particular though, along with Pariah Devalis in fact.

Edited by Wintersdark, 24 August 2016 - 10:37 AM.

[Navid A1]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

Oh, for gods sake. Fight that forumwarrior fight! Must discredit Wintersdark however you can; take what he's saying out of context as much as possible!

Obviously, they play differently. The build possibilities, however, outside of boated ballistics really, are pretty similar between the two. I'm well aware of how they play. I've got around 800 drops in Direwolfs alone; I'm most firmly an Assault pilot, and particularly Clans.

But even on live, the KDK stomps the crap out of Direwolves. The loss of agility is horrible. A comparison is easy enough to make, though - the KDK is just a DWF that can move.

The Direwolf's only advantage over the KDK is in boated ballistics, really. You can still do that, boating LBX, or smaller UAC's (or a combination). You can run lots of lasers, but that's got the same flaws as lots of lasers on a KDK. Both have limited missile support, but it's there. But very generally speaking, anything the DWF can do, the KDK can do better.

ED doesn't bring balance to many mechs that are basically broken right now anyways. It's really hard to find ways to make the DWF compete with the KDK.

Let me quote the entire conversation then:

Navid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 10:00 AM, said:

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 09:03 AM, said:

Navid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

Theories!
So I take it that you did not test the direwolf then.

No, I have not run a Direwolf yet, though I do have a lot of runs in my Kodiaks, which are quite similar.

Lol what?
Kodiak is similar to direwolf?
Sorry man, I can not take anything you say about gameplay seriously anymore!

Kodiak is different compared to a dire wolf by a galactic margin.

Being a battlemech, faster speed, faster torso twist rate, further torso twist range, lower arm actuators, Better torso twist profile...

no, seriously. I can not take your word for your testings any more.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Navid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:

Sorry man. You wrapped it up for all of us in those tweets. Its highly unlikely for them to change anything at this point.

I don't think that's true necessarily. Russ will always retweet what looks like good publicity for the game, he seems to constantly be in damage control mode on twitter, trying to downplay problems with the game on social media. It's just publicity BS, it doesn't necessarily mean he's not listening.

I'm still going to keep making a racket on forums and on twitter until the cooldown nerfs to PPCs are reverted. 70% of the mechs I play are non-boat PPC mechs, and I am admittedly a pretty big whale. I'll keep paying money for new mechs so long as I'm having fun, if Russ let's this go live as is and it nukes most of my mech stable without a good reason, I'm stepping away and I'm not preordering anything else.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 24 August 2016 - 11:28 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

Think I enjoy having my cERPPC's being utter trash? No. I don't like them much now either, to be honest, and didn't like them in PTS1. I *HAVE* tweeted Russ previously about them in particular though, along with Pariah Devalis in fact.

As have I *raises hand*, like ten times actually >.>

[Cy Mitchell]

Navid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

I'm not seeing you tweeting that to Russ.
Reinforcing the idea that you are giving biased feedback to PGI.

To be fair, Russ said to put comments on here, not on twitter. Obviously, Winterdark did exactly that because you quoted him. Anyone that says PGI is not reading the PTS threads is just in denial because many of the changes that they made in PTS 2 were suggested in threads in threads here as a result of the PTS1 test.

Edited by Rampage, 24 August 2016 - 11:07 AM.

[Navid A1]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

I'm going to write a post about what I think should change after a couple days of testing, exactly like I did last time.

I haven't sent ANY recommendations to Russ yet, because untested recommendations aren't going to be listened to as much as tested ones.

But really, continue thinking I'm some, what, paid shill? Just trying to make PGI happy. It's not like I'm getting anything out of this, all I care about is the game I love being more fun for me.

I do have a lot of recommendations, and I will post them; probably tonight. At that point, I'll also tweet the major ones to Russ.

My posts thus far have been about the system as it stands now, not where it should go.

Think I enjoy having my cERPPC's being utter trash? No. I don't like them much now either, to be honest, and didn't like them in PTS1. I *HAVE* tweeted Russ previously about them in particular though, along with Pariah Devalis in fact.

I'll look forward to see it.

Because atm. Your opinion looks like everything that is not a kodiak is irrelevant as long as Kodiaks work and praise be upon Jorgensson an Tseng

[Wintersdark]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 24 August 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

I'm still going to keep making a racket on forums and on twitter until the cooldown nerfs to PPCs are reverted. 70% of the mech I play are non-boat PPC mechs, and I am admittedly a pretty big whale. I'll keep paying money for new mechs so long as I'm having fun, if Russ let's this go live as is and it nukes most of my mech stable without a good reason, I'm stepping away and I'm not preordering anything else.

PPC nerfs are, for me, the single biggest problem in the PTS2 right now. PTS1 was a little PPC happy - I liked that, but accepted it needed to come down (hence I'd recommended a draw increase) but the draw increase plus cooldown is too much. One or the other.

Likewise, cERPPC's are totally trash, and that needs to be fixed. 15 draw for 10 effective damage and 15 heat, at that cooldown? Blah. No, I haven't even tested that, it's just junk. There's no way I'd run a CERPPC vs. a CERLL or CLPL now. Both of them offer much better damage:heat and damage:energy conversions, and while the lasers have burn, CERPPC's have horribly slow projectile speed, so it's hard to hit anything with them. Too inflexible as a result.

[Wintersdark]

Navid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 11:10 AM, said:

I'll look forward to see it.

Because atm. Your opinion looks like everything that is not a kodiak is irrelevant as long as Kodiaks work and praise be upon Jorgensson an Tseng

Not at all. There's lots of other assaults that are great. I've spent more time in KDK's in particular because I love them, and nobody's paying me to do this so I used my babies first. I haven't been back in them since.

See also: Warhawk, Stalker, Atlas, King Crab tested in my OP.

But the DWF... It's a broken mech right now. It's a broken mech on live too. It's not TERRIBLE, has it's place I guess, perhaps moreso in organized play where you can be sure it's horrific agility disadvantages are covered. In a Quickplay world, though, there's basically nothing you can do in a DWF that you can't do better in a KDK.

That is ABSOLUTELY a balance problem that needs to be addressed. The DWF needs some reason to exist; it doesn't really have one now.

But, as I said above, I'm not testing Mechs, I'm testing builds. I respect that they perform differently, I get that; but what's important to me right now is seeing the impact ED has on builds, and how they can be altered to work better; particularly, what sorts of builds can be exploited.

Edited by Wintersdark, 24 August 2016 - 12:28 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

PPC nerfs are, for me, the single biggest problem in the PTS2 right now. PTS1 was a little PPC happy - I liked that, but accepted it needed to come down (hence I'd recommended a draw increase) but the draw increase plus cooldown is too much. One or the other.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but as I see it, it's not "one or the other", it's "one." The nerf needs to be to the power draw and definitely not to the cooldown. Increasing draw directly targets PPC boating, which may have been too powerful in PTS1. Increasing Cooldown, on the other hand, hurts all PPC mechs pretty evenly and is thus punishing mechs that weren't a problem. All this does is lower build diversity, the opposite of ED's intended effect.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 24 August 2016 - 11:34 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Essentially, I'm testing how loadouts perform more than individual mechs. We already know the differences between chassis, and how they'll impact things. We know the KDK is faster and twistier than the DWF, and has dramatically better hardpoint locations, for example. Particularly as I'm rolling mostly clan side (I don't have the newer strong IS mechs) so quirks are basically not a consideration which I kind of prefer, as quirks are pretty volatile anyways.

You could argue I'm not testing enough builds. I'd love to test more, and have lots I'd like to try, but there's physical limits here.

Nevertheless, I've documented what I've done as well as I can, and I'm trying to cram 3+ matches per test in, which is at best like half an hour of my time per build; in practice much more as PTS matches are few and far between now - all while I'm taking care of my kids and dealing with severe leg surgery (ankles to groin, both legs, one week ago). So, I'm sorry if you feel I'm deliberately avoiding something or bizarrely biased, but I'm doing the best I can with this.

Tell me; where's your post? What have you tried? I've been on the PTS for a couple days, I haven't seen you once. Or did you just do a couple drops and dream up the rest? When you found builds that didn't work as well, did you put any effort into figuring out why and how you could improve it? Or did you just get upset that your pet build didn't work anymore and throw a tantrum? Did you test it AT ALL?

I'll imagine you probably did, but I wonder, did you just get into a private lobby on TS with a bunch of people all playing pissed-off-echo-chamber and not actually working with the system at all?

Jack Shayu Walker, on 24 August 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

I agree with most of what you're saying, but as I see it, it's not "one or the other", it's "one." The nerf needs to be to the power draw and definitely not to the cooldown. Increasing draw directly targets PPC boating, which may have been too powerful in PTS1. Increasing Cooldown, on the other hand, hurts all PPC mechs pretty evenly and is thus punishing mechs that weren't a problem. All this does is lower build diversity, the opposite of ED's intended effect.

Yeah, I can get behind this.

I should also note:

I focussed on heavier mechs with lots of weaponry for a reason.

Lights and Mediums in most cases can simply ignore Energy Draw, and my lighter heavies too. Energy draw most significantly impacts heavily armed mechs, so those where what I chose to focus on.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

Yeah, I can get behind this.

I should also note:

I focussed on heavier mechs with lots of weaponry for a reason.

Lights and Mediums in most cases can simply ignore Energy Draw, and my lighter heavies too. Energy draw most significantly impacts heavily armed mechs, so those where what I chose to focus on.

Good, glad we're in agreement, hope PGI sees it the same way.

What I'm afraid of right now is PGI buffing the velocity of the PPC instead of reverting the cooldown. I feel the lower velocity in exchange for a faster fire rate is one of the key points differentiating PPCs from the Gauss Rifles. But now that people are calling for a rollback to PPC nerfs, I have a bad feeling that PGI in their convoluted ways might look for an alternate way to buff PPCs other than reverting a change they already made.

If they decide to go that route, what's a complaint people have always had about the PPC? "Oh it's too slow? yeah that'll work, buff the velocity, leave the cooldown alone." Having spent a lot of time learning how to properly wield PPCs, I would hate to see the weapon remain nerfed in exchange for making it easier to wield.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 24 August 2016 - 11:58 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Navid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

Why don't you try to twist in a direwolf?

It's slower, but on the other hand your hitboxes aren't as bad as the KDK's, so there's that. But it's not like you can't twist at all; minor twisting can keep shots off your CT at least. You're not trying to go Atlas style and catch shots on your arms, that'll never work.

Quote

If fire power is normalised across all mechs... I "DESIRE" direwolf to have the same mobility as the kodiak

Firepower isn't normalised across all mechs. Alpha is, to an extent, but not firepower overall.

However, the Direwolf and KDK have essentially the same firepower. Both are Clan Assaults, the KDK *can* elect to go 300xl/no upgrades, but in most cases you're better off with at least Endo and a 350.

It definitely needs more agility.

The Direwolf doesn't have more firepower than the KDK anyways on live (my own 122alpha build notwithstanding; as a good chunk is short ranged). It doesn't on the PTS either. Pure dakka builds are workable, but absolutely not superior to live KDK dakka.

But, yes, the DWF is a borked mech that needs something to compensate for it's terrible mobility. I honestly believe it at the bare minimum requires some twist quirks. I miss my DWF's.

[Navid A1]

Actually I think they need to keep the long cool down for PPCs and revert back to PTS1 draw.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Navid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

Actually I think they need to keep the long cool down for PPCs and revert back to PTS1 draw.

That hurts mechs that don't boat PPCs more than mechs that do boat PPCs. Why would you do that?

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 24 August 2016 - 12:28 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 12:19 PM, said:

Firepower isn't normalised across all mechs. Alpha is, to an extent, but not firepower overall.

This isn't quite true, all firepower is limited to a certain measure including DPS, thanks to the energy recharge rate. It should be around 17 DPS for any combination of weapons that recently got nerfed.

[Wintersdark]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 August 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

Under this system, they won't be firing massive alpha strikes, it will be dakka hammering you, whether it is the 5 UAC5 with TComp Whale or the 3 AC5/2 UAC5 Mauler or even the new 4 UAC5 Cyclops. Mixed builds like your laser vomit Kodiak won't be worth it against these mechs because they no longer are able to do the punch like they used too and the raw damage the dakka spits out will still be ruining any mech that stands in their way. I know many think AC5s are dead, but especially with the latest group of changes, AC5s are still one of the best weapons for assaults.

I'm with Gas though, this is too restrictive and won't make gameplay better, the longer this PTS goes on, the more I would be a fan of them just re-evaluating the thresholds and penalties of all the ghost heat groups in live.

I don't think AC5's are dead. They've worked well enough for me. Dakka builds are solid, but still require lots of facetime. Totally possible, though, no doubt. However, running a 5UAC5 Direwolf for example? It's nerfed from live. It's still a good dakka boat, but it's not unstoppable by any means. You've got to have fire control, as you can easily spike ED if you doubletap fast and often, and a lack of jams can take you from low heat to overheat fast.

I didn't run a Dakka Direwolf in a live match, mind you, just the the PTS. I have been almost incapable of getting matches this afternoon, so trialling in the testing grounds - these mechs I'm not posting about in the OP, as those are only mechs that have seen multiple live combat matches.

Edit: I *DID* fight against a Dakka Mauler and a couple Dakka Direwolves, though.

Have *YOU* tried a Dakka Direwolf in the PTS?

I'll happily take other builds against one; no qualms whatsoever.

Same with a dakka mauler - still a very strong build, but not OMGOP.

Not a lot changed for them, when all is said and done, but if you're running Ultra 5s, care must be taken and DPS cannot be maximized for long.

Edited by Wintersdark, 24 August 2016 - 12:35 PM.