211 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Wintersdark, on 23 August 2016 - 05:33 PM, said:

Mixed builds work great

Good. Now compare them to boated and pure PPFLD builds at various ranges.

In the meantime, I probably should start planning/designing my GH 2.0 ... ahem, I meant ... ED simulator. I just might need it.

Edited by Mystere, 23 August 2016 - 08:43 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Navid A1, on 23 August 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:

Now:

2 days ago:

Its funny that it was not about a thinking man's shooter a couple days ago.
PGI yes-man confirmed?

Ironically, the system suggested to you actually simplifies ED and makes sense.

I feel the same way today as I did then. I felt a second copy of the ED system managing Ballistics+Missiles and Energy separately was needlessly complicated (now we have 3 resource bars instead of two) *and* it didn't do what ED was setting out to do (limit overall alphas).

I say this, because I do not feel ED is simple. I feel it is AS complicated as ghost heat. I'd hoped it would be simpler overall, but as people have said, ED requires all the weapons to have their own scaling factors which quickly makes it complex. But unlike ghost heat, you don't avoid it purely via cheesing the mechlab, you work it in game, and the UI does help a heck of a lot.

I'm sorry I'm not a huge fan of your idea. I don't think it's terrible, and I would probably enjoy playing with it, but I *DO* think it both (A) has zero chance of implementation(PGI would say too complicated), and (B] it doesn't do what ED is supposed to do: Limit total alphas.

Ultimately though, while I appreciate how you went for the whole "AHA!" attack in your post above, using your system (ED for lasers alongside but separate from ED for ammo based weapons) simply allows one to basically ignore both systems in most instances, as your overall draw on each half is lessened.....

...Unless you have the misfortune to run a mech that's all ammo based, or all energy based.

Mystere, on 23 August 2016 - 08:33 PM, said:

Good. Now compare them to boated and pure PPFLD builds at various ranges.

In the meantime, I probably should start planning/designing my GH 2.0 ... ahem, I meant ... ED simulator. I just might need it.

Offer some that you feel will be problem builds? I'm mostly running Clan side here, as I lack the "better" IS chassis and am reluctant to spend all the time buying sets then skilling them up. But if there's something in particular you feel would be problematic, I'll totally give 'er a go.

Edited by Wintersdark, 23 August 2016 - 08:52 PM.

[Navid A1]

Wintersdark, on 23 August 2016 - 08:47 PM, said:

Offer some that you feel will be problem builds? I'm mostly running Clan side here, as I lack the "better" IS chassis and am reluctant to spend all the time buying sets then skilling them up. But if there's something in particular you feel would be problematic, I'll totally give 'er a go.

Try anything with 2 or more clan UACs and lasers with possible SRMs.
Dire fore example... try UAC10s, 5s. With ER meds.

And while you are testing it... remember that you are up against only 4 enemy mechs with no MM.
12 v12 is different. Multiply the damage you take by 3.

the way UACs draw instantly from the enrgy pool is stupid. They should draw per shell... that is how the damage is done using those.. they are basically spread weapons.
The energy Draw treats them as mini gausses... while they are fundamentally different.


Then try boating 6 UAC5s, or LPLs, ERPPCs, or ERLLs and compare the results.

Also try an LRM maddog with a couple lasers

Try a warhawk with 2ERPPCs, 3MPLs and 2 LRM10s.

Edited by Navid A1, 23 August 2016 - 09:08 PM.

[Navid A1]

Wintersdark, on 23 August 2016 - 08:47 PM, said:

Ultimately though, while I appreciate how you went for the whole "AHA!" attack in your post above, using your system (ED for lasers alongside but separate from ED for ammo based weapons) simply allows one to basically ignore both systems in most instances, as your overall draw on each half is lessened.....

...Unless you have the misfortune to run a mech that's all ammo based, or all energy based.

Based on those sentences, I'm now certain you have not read the text... at all.

[Wintersdark]

Navid A1, on 23 August 2016 - 09:02 PM, said:

Try anything with 2 or more clan UACs and lasers with possible SRMs.
Dire fore example... try UAC10s, 5s. With ER meds.

See KDK-3 above, with 2xUAC10 and 2xUAC5. Worked very, very well. Didn't use ERMed's, but I wouldn't have on live either. It works spectacularly well, though you need to fire 10s > 5s > 10s > 5s. Still strong DPS output, though not quite as good as live.

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And while you are testing it... remember that you are up against only 4 enemy mechs with no MM.

No MM; but I'm not against poor mechwarriors. In fact, I'd argue it's likely most of my competition is better than I am, and yet I've been pulling first or second spot in almost every single match.

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12 v12 is different. Multiply the damage you take by 3.

We'll see how things work in 12v12. I don't have any more face time now than I do in Live, however.

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Then try boating 6 UAC5s, or LPLs, ERPPCs, or ERLLs and compare the results.

I'm boating stuff now. I'm not going to run 6x5, because that's obviously a bad build under ED. It'd be a 36 ED alpha; that's not a good plan. I did try boating LOTS of LPL/ERLL, found 4 of either work, but not as well as mixing. I wished they worked equally well, but I outline the problems in my OP (I keep editing it as I bring in new builds).

I've not run ERPPC's yet. I suspect they are flatly broken, at 15 draw, 15 heat, for only 10 effective damage? That's junk.

You have to expect some good builds will be less good, some poor builds will be better; there's no need to test obviously broken builds, and I'm less interested in testing very-probably-broken builds (massed ERPPC's, obviously. 15 heat? Running more than 2 is insane, though I'm sure two plus a gauss would be fine, basically like live.

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Also try an LRM maddog with a couple lasers

I definitely will; my LRM35/5 ERSL mad dog is one of my favourite mechs. I haven't run it yet though because I'm focusing on "problems" people present. I will certainly run it though.

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Try a warhawk with 2ERPPCs, 3MPLs an 2 LRM10s.

I ran a Warhawk with 5 MPL's and 3 LRM15's, does that count? It worked great. Adding ERPPC's would be stupid now and it would be stupid on live. There's nowhere near enough heatcap for that build to be decent on either.

Navid A1, on 23 August 2016 - 09:11 PM, said:

Based on those sentences, I'm now certain you have not read the text... at all.

I'm willing to accept and admit that I may have misunderstood, misread, and/or forgotten details; but as I said earlier in the main announcement thread, there's just not a lot of use in proposing whole new systems. PGI isn't going to pay any attention to it here. So I'm focussing on the system we have, and how well it works or doesn't.

Basically, everyone has their Pet System that would just Fix Everything, but whole new/different systems just aren't going to happen. I have my own solutions too, that I think would be objectively better than ED, but I'm not even bothering suggesting them for that reason.

And no, I'm not being a "PGI Yes Man". I genuinely love this system and am having TONS of fun with it.

Edited by Wintersdark, 23 August 2016 - 09:15 PM.

[Navid A1]

Wintersdark, on 23 August 2016 - 09:14 PM, said:

I ran a Warhawk with 5 MPL's and 3 LRM15's, does that count? It worked great. Adding ERPPC's would be stupid now and it would be stupid on live. There's nowhere near enough heatcap for that build to be decent on either.

Try that on live. You will be surprised.
You simply can not do less than 800 (not an exaggeration)

Wintersdark, on 23 August 2016 - 09:14 PM, said:

See KDK-3 above, with 2xUAC10 and 2xUAC5. Worked very, very well. Didn't use ERMed's, but I wouldn't have on live either. It works spectacularly well, though you need to fire 10s > 5s > 10s > 5s. Still strong DPS output, though not quite as good as live.

Yes. Boating wins.
Basically if you want to use UACs... you better boat them. No back up weapons allowed.
That is what I'm talking about




I may sound like a bit aggressive..., partly because I have not had any sleep in the past 40 hours... and party because I'm trying to salvage something out of this mess... because at this point, if this makes it on live... its the end of MWO for me. Yet I love mechwarrior an don't want that to happen.

[Wintersdark]

Navid A1, on 23 August 2016 - 09:22 PM, said:

Yes. Boating wins.
Basically if you want to use UACs... you better boat them. No back up weapons allowed.
That is what I'm talking about

I may sound like a bit aggressive..., partly because I have not had any sleep in the past 40 hours... and party because I'm trying to salvage something out of this mess... because at this point, if this makes it on live... its the end of MWO for me. Yet I love mechwarrior an don't want that to happen.

Seriously, I'm not trying to be argumentative. But I'm really not having the problems people bring up - with the except of (specifically) 2xUAC10+other heavy weapons, but in that specific instance you're basically looking at 40 damage inside half a second from the AC's alone. So, given the system is supposed to reduce alpha damage, I don't expect much more, and the weapon's cycle time is fast enough that you're basically able to fire it again after anyways. This sucks, because 2CUAC10+2LPL was a great build, but I can lay that one at the altar of progress, specifically because going to 66 damage in less than a second is what this system is targeting to stop.

And again, I'm facing strong players, better players than me, and still doing fine.

But why don't I have any issue with non boated autocannons? I mean 2xCUAC10 in particular is tough to marry things with, if you intend to doubletap it. In many cases, bringing in LBX instead of UAC is ideal when you're mixing them with other heavy weapons.

Using UAC5's, or UAC2's, 2 of either work just fine with lasers, no problem at all. One or two LBX20 is fine married with basically anything, as is a single CUAC20. Dual CUAC20's, not so much, but that's another one of those "Well, yeah." things. Using more depends on your goals, but basically you're looking at the same overall damage output either way: Run more UAC5's, or tack in some lasers, but not both. Given VERY few mechs can run more than 3 or so UAC5's, I'm really not seeing this as a problem, rather just a reality of the build.

I'm running my MDD with LRM35/5ersl, and it's way better than it was on live. I can alpha the missiles, then alpha the lasers, or continuously stream the LRM's and fire the lasers in pairs, either works smashingly well. It's objectively stronger than it was on Live.

Edited by Wintersdark, 23 August 2016 - 09:34 PM.

[Reno Blade]

Thanks for all the testing and discusion everyone.

May I ask for a few tests with some things like these:

3x LL/LP in Medium mechs (e.g. Wolverine)
2x PPC in Medium mechs (e.g. PHawk, Vindicator, BJ)
2x PPC + Gauss in Heavy (e.g. Marauder)
2x PPC +2x AC5 in Heavy (e.g. Warhammer)
3-4x PPC in Assault with and w/o quirks (e.g. Awesome 8Q vs Stalker)
3/4x SRM6 + x 2-4ML in Medium mech (e.g. Griffin)
2x Gauss +2x PPC in Assault (e.g. Mauler/King Crab)
3x AC5 +3x ML Heavy (e.g. Ilya / EbonJag)
30-70LRM Assault (e.g. Stalker)

[Navid A1]

RIP Direwolf.

You don't believe me?
Test it!

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Navid A1, on 23 August 2016 - 09:22 PM, said:

Yes. Boating wins.
Basically if you want to use UACs... you better boat them. No back up weapons allowed.
That is what I'm talking about

I may sound like a bit aggressive..., partly because I have not had any sleep in the past 40 hours... and party because I'm trying to salvage something out of this mess... because at this point, if this makes it on live... its the end of MWO for me. Yet I love mechwarrior an don't want that to happen.

My point exactly and it looks like we are in the same boat my friend.

I can't keep playing if this patch goes live, and I really really don't want that to happen, so I'm trying my very best to make some waves and get some things changed. PGI is making a huge mistake with how they are combating boats on the PTS, it's hurting non-boats using similar weapons.

[Navid A1]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 24 August 2016 - 07:03 AM, said:

My point exactly and it looks like we are in the same boat my friend.

I can't keep playing if this patch goes live, and I really really don't want that to happen, so I'm trying my very best to make some waves and get some things changed. PGI is making a huge mistake with how they are combating boats on the PTS, it's hurting non-boats using similar weapons.

Sadly... People have already patted the narcissistic PGI on the back on twitter... and that means no more changes. and no more feedback.

Its more sad that the test results are all done in 4v4 combat and PGI will decide the fate of 12v12 live servers with it.

This time, it will not be the fault of PGI... but some shortsighted conclusions from the community.

This WILL get to live servers as is.

Edited by Navid A1, 24 August 2016 - 07:18 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Alright, seriously, now that you have tweeted to Russ twice about how much you love this BattleTech game (btw, are you going to quit MWO when BT comes out?), what exactly is your metric for efficacy in this case? I struggle to understand how doing a couple matches in a 4v4 with no MM can give you any insight into how balanced the builds are.

And I'm glad you agree on the 2UAC10 plus lpls... that bodes poorly for the poor Marauder IIC...

Honestly I can't get behind how restrictive the system is. This is MechWarrior, these limits have never existed in these games before.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 24 August 2016 - 07:59 AM.

[TKSax]

Navid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 07:16 AM, said:

Sadly... People have already patted the narcissistic PGI on the back on twitter... and that means no more changes. and no more feedback.

Energy Draw in some form will be in live, they way Phil acted towards me last night on his stream when I dare question why some of the things were changed tells me that the decision has already been made on Energy Draw. They are just tweaking a few of the details.

[Navid A1]

TKSax, on 24 August 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

Energy Draw in some form will be in live, they way Phil acted towards me last night on his stream when I dare question why some of the things were changed tells me that the decision has already been made on Energy Draw. They are just tweaking a few of the details.

Well, that is it for me then.

Gas Guzzler, on 24 August 2016 - 07:47 AM, said:

Alright, seriously, now that you have tweeted to Russ twice about how much you love this BattleTech game (btw, are you going to quit MWO when BT comes out?), what exactly is your metric for efficacy in this case? I struggle to understand how doing a couple matches in a 4v4 with no MM can give you any insight into how balanced the builds are.

And I'm glad you agree on the 2UAC10 plus lpls... that bodes poorly for the poor Marauder IIC...

Honestly I can't get behind how restrictive the system is. This is MechWarrior, these limits have never existed in these games before.

Convoluted mechanisms to the max.
It would be fun watching direwolfs crawling on the ground overheating by firing a single UAC5 and 3ERMLs


And some think it is now thinking man's shooter, because now you must count miliseconds on a bar. Its not like you need to think about position and plan... but counting miliseconds.
You pay less for your mistakes.
You ran into the whole enemy team all by yourself?... no problem... because none of them can fire back anyway!

Edited by Navid A1, 24 August 2016 - 08:10 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

TKSax, on 24 August 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

Energy Draw in some form will be in live, they way Phil acted towards me last night on his stream when I dare question why some of the things were changed tells me that the decision has already been made on Energy Draw. They are just tweaking a few of the details.

How did he act?

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 August 2016 - 07:47 AM, said:

Alright, seriously, now that you have tweeted to Russ twice about how much you love this BattleTech game (btw, are you going to quit MWO when BT comes out?), what exactly is your metric for efficacy in this case? I struggle to understand how doing a couple matches in a 4v4 with no MM can give you any insight into how balanced the builds are.

My metric for efficacy? How I'm judging good vs. bad builds?

A few things:

• The build's ability to use all of it's weapons effectively. The 2UAC10+2LPL build fails here, as you pointed out. However, a 2LBX10+2LPL build works just fine, as does a large number of other builds on the chassis. 2UAC10 doesn't really pair with much due to how the weapon works. 1UAC10 is fine mixed in with other stuff though. Ultimately, this is a minor problem given how few builds can run 2UAC10+other heavy weapons, and there are other solid options. Running a couple ERML and LRM's with it works fine though. More UAC10's is right out (look, boating is bad!)
  
• The build's ability to perform well within it's bracket, outputting enough useful damage(that is, damage that goes where you want it to go) vs. other builds in it's class while still maintaining usable defensive piloting. As an example, I found quad CLPL to work, but not be a very good option for a mech like the Kodiak because you're heatcapping in damage output with unimpressive DPS and insufficient speed to really use it in a peek and poke manner. I'm most interested in how brawlers function vs. other brawlers as an example.

I'm really looking forward to Battletech, and will play the crap out of it when it released, but I won't play it PvP and once the game is done, I'll be right back to MWO. Same as with all other PvE releases over the last few years.

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And I'm glad you agree on the 2UAC10 plus lpls... that bodes poorly for the poor Marauder IIC...

Why? There's LOTS of great builds you can use with it. Just because one strong build on Live isn't strong with the PTS is no indication that the system is broken. Of course it'll change what builds work best.

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Honestly I can't get behind how restrictive the system is. This is MechWarrior, these limits have never existed in these games before.

What's ironic is I find it in many ways less restrictive than Ghost Heat. But I understand why others may feel it's more restrictive, certainly, so I'm not arguing that.

However, I will say, these limits have never existed in MechWarrior games before, but MechWarrior games have always featured terribly balanced s**t-show PvP play too, so having systems prior MechWarrior games didn't isn't a bad thing.

After all, after MW4, MechWarrior was viewed as a trash IP not worth anything, and that is why we went SO LONG without a MechWarrior game.

[Navid A1]

I would accept UAC10s energy draw being 10 if it fired a single shot.

With ED. You fire 3 shells. You spread damage... and you are PUNISHED instantly.

[Gas Guzzler]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 08:19 AM, said:

Why? There's LOTS of great builds you can use with it. Just because one strong build on Live isn't strong with the PTS is no indication that the system is broken. Of course it'll change what builds work best.

As an academic exercise, can you list out some builds to get excited about on the MAD-IIC? I can think of one...

The Scorch with 4 SRM6 w/art and 2 LB20s.

Otherwise its all 2 UAC10s or 3 UAC5s, plus lasers or ERPPCs, or dual gauss with an ER PPC (now a 42 heat alpha..). OR that energy boat.. What do you do there? 5-6 cERLL? 4 cLPLs? Sounds so fun and interesting.

[Navid A1]

Wintersdark, on 24 August 2016 - 08:19 AM, said:

What's ironic is I find it in many ways less restrictive than Ghost Heat. But I understand why others may feel it's more restrictive, certainly, so I'm not arguing that.

Show me an example of a less restrictive build under ED, that you can not do right now!

I can show you a ton of builds that are hugely restricted under ED though.

Edited by Navid A1, 24 August 2016 - 08:27 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Navid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

It would be fun watching direwolfs crawling on the ground overheating by firing a single UAC5 and 3ERMLs

That's such a load of crap, and you know it. I'm tempted to do the math and show how much heat is involved, but you know this is an absurd overexaggeration. Running a pair of UAC5's is trivial alongside lasers (or even lasers and missiles); you don't need to count milliseconds, just fire lasers in between shots of the UAC5's.

On a Direwolf, you can run a good chunk of lasers and massive LBX autocannons as well for really great face-punching power.

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And some think it is now thinking man's shooter, because now you must count miliseconds on a bar. Its not like you need to think about position and plan... but counting miliseconds.

Position and plan are every bit as important. But now you need to think about which weapon you fire and when as well, as opposed to just peek and BLAM!

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You pay less for your mistakes.
You ran into the whole enemy team all by yourself?... no problem... because none of them can fire back anyway!

Again a gross over-exaggeration.

But again, and I said this earlier: Longer TTK benefits skilled players more than it does unskilled players.

This is because in a short TTK situation, a single mistake can end you quickly - or your opponent. In a long-TTK situation, a single mistake isn't the end, but neither is a single bit of luck a win. You need to be consistently good, because you're very unlikely to be consistently lucky or unlucky.

If anything, there's a strong argument to be made that longer TTK means an unfair advantage for stronger players.