241 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

So, the Inner Sphere PPC is now obsolete in Quickplay... it used to have an advantage over CERPPC by the heat/delivered damage ratio of 1, whereas the clan weapon had 15 heat to only 10 delivered damage to target component.

Now they are both 1, and the clan ERPPC is smaller, lighter, longer ranged, higher DPS and higher Alpha, and their DHSs are smaller.

Someone forgot how to math.

Edit- oh wait I forgot about quirks. You know that whole system they develop because the weapons are imbalanced? Talk about reverse engineering. They deliberately misbalance the weapons because there are already existing quirks. Weird.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 01 September 2016 - 04:48 PM.

[Deathlike]

Sergei Pavlov, on 01 September 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:

TTK was perfect during Closed Beta. The heat mechanics worked. But then someone decided to introduce heat-capacity-increasing DHS and everything got screwed up, until today.

Believe it or not... SHS also increased heat capacity (back then and now). So, that's wholly inaccurate. You may not have noticed it, but it's there.



Just wanted to expand on my earlier comments...

Reducing the energy draw on the IS LL is like trying to set up a 2 second CERLL that has zero Ghost Heat/Energy Draw penalties... just because the energy draw value is lowered, doesn't make the weapon itself practical (just like MGs in the current game).

Edited by Deathlike, 01 September 2016 - 04:47 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 01 September 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

He's hung up on the energy draw value changes, and not about the more practical aspects of the weapon... duration and damage.

ED changes are important, but more so to larger mechs. This is definitely a nerf to lasers. Sure, take an extra laser due to the lower ED draw... But damage/duration nerfs mean your offensive ability remains equal to prenerf but you lose that many DHS WHILE increasing generation .

With that said, I dunno if the laser nerf is a problem or not.

This is the first post where the IS doesn't come out well ahead of Clams though, that's an interesting change.

[Mystere]

Prosperity Park, on 01 September 2016 - 04:45 PM, said:

So, the Inner Sphere PPC is now obsolete in Quickplay... it used to have an advantage over CERPPC by the heat/delivered damage ratio of 1, whereas the clan weapon had 15 heat to only 10 delivered damage to target component.

Now they are both 1, and the clan ERPPC is smaller, lighter, longer ranged, higher DPS and higher Alpha, and their DHSs are smaller.

Someone forgot how to math.

Edit- oh wait I forgot about quirks. You know that whole system they develop because the weapons are imbalanced? Talk about reverse engineering. They deliberately misbalance the weapons because there are already existing quirks. Weird.

It's still a test. so I assume the numbers are still not going to the live servers.

Edited by Mystere, 01 September 2016 - 09:37 PM.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

Anychance we can test these changes without quirks?

The stock AWS-8Q (28 SHS btw) can still alpha strike at least 7 times before overheating and shutting down and I only unlocked 3 basics on this single awesome chassis (cool run / heat containment)

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 01 September 2016 - 05:01 PM, said:

ED changes are important, but more so to larger mechs. This is definitely a nerf to lasers. Sure, take an extra laser due to the lower ED draw... But damage/duration nerfs mean your offensive ability remains equal to prenerf but you lose that many DHS WHILE increasing generation .

With that said, I dunno if the laser nerf is a problem or not.

This is the first post where the IS doesn't come out well ahead of Clams though, that's an interesting change.

Laservomit isn't the most popular, but mostly that it's highly vulnerable with people that are too scared to take advantage of it (most of the time, at least in iso-situations).

These changes generally remove IS from laservomit contention under most instances (at least with mid to long range) and that's underestimating the other changes that were made. I would just run Clan vomit (with some dakka, if tonnage permits) all day every day if these changes went live, and it would be shamefully boring.

Edited by Deathlike, 01 September 2016 - 05:06 PM.

[Mr Inconsistent]

The fun continues with Waitwarrior Online now extending into the matches itself with greater cooldowns across the board...

So now I'll spend 30 minutes waiting for group drops on Asia Pacific timezone, with a 300ms ping, wait extensively for each time I get to fire my weapons, only to wait a minute to connect back into the front screen after the match. It's ridiculous that people even consider this the right direction?

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Deathlike, on 01 September 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

You're both missing the part about duration. Essentially, the IS LL (which wasn't really popular, not that it isn't used) has the duration closer to a live-server Clan LPL.

Damage is not as relevant if you're going to be outtraded outright.

Okay I had missed the change to the IS LL duration, it did not need that, IS LPL needed an adjustment for their burn time due to it is ludicrous. IS LL was fine with a 1s Burn time for 9DPS during that burn, that is pretty strong. I do see your point about the cERML being too powerful, it does need to be adjusted and treated like an IS LL due to the range band it works in puts the cERML as a Long Range laser with the difference between it and an unquirked IS LL being a mere 45m and only what a point of damage difference between them?

cERML need adjustments and the IS LL needs to drop down to be dropped down to a .9 second burn time so it is still a 9dps for the 8 damage it does. This would be 2dps over the cERML at 6.1dps over 1.15 seconds. This adjustment still would likely not be enough to make IS LL worth it against a clan cERML boat. Maybe with this also drop IS ML down to a burn time of .825s to put it's burn time squarely between the IS SL and IS LL. This of course doesn't address some other issues with a few energy weapons in MWO.

Being out traded is an issue when sinking so much into the IS LL and harms it's viability. Good thing PGI seems to be in no rush to put Energy Draw on the live servers. Maybe we can get weapons balanced then drop the energy draw stuff and lower heat capacity to a locked 30 or something with true DHS existing. Though, that has it's own issues, but, hey, PTS is meant for testing stuff to balance it all out.

[DAYLEET]

Why didnt the 30points of damage free before drainage+heat work? Why do they have to go weapon by weapon balancing?

[FupDup]

DAYLEET, on 01 September 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

Why didnt the 30points of damage free before drainage+heat work? Why do they have to go weapon by weapon balancing?

Because 30 points of DoT or spread is inferior to 30 points of PPFLD. Spread/DoT weapons are supposed to have larger alpha strikes to compensate for not being PPFLD.

With that being said, yes many of the adjustments being made are derptastic. The Nerfinator™ is an old dog that still hasn't learned any new tricks...

[Deathlike]

Moonlight Grimoire, on 01 September 2016 - 05:18 PM, said:

Okay I had missed the change to the IS LL duration, it did not need that, IS LPL needed an adjustment for their burn time due to it is ludicrous. IS LL was fine with a 1s Burn time for 9DPS during that burn, that is pretty strong. I do see your point about the cERML being too powerful, it does need to be adjusted and treated like an IS LL due to the range band it works in puts the cERML as a Long Range laser with the difference between it and an unquirked IS LL being a mere 45m and only what a point of damage difference between them?

cERML need adjustments and the IS LL needs to drop down to be dropped down to a .9 second burn time so it is still a 9dps for the 8 damage it does. This would be 2dps over the cERML at 6.1dps over 1.15 seconds. This adjustment still would likely not be enough to make IS LL worth it against a clan cERML boat. Maybe with this also drop IS ML down to a burn time of .825s to put it's burn time squarely between the IS SL and IS LL. This of course doesn't address some other issues with a few energy weapons in MWO.

Being out traded is an issue when sinking so much into the IS LL and harms it's viability. Good thing PGI seems to be in no rush to put Energy Draw on the live servers. Maybe we can get weapons balanced then drop the energy draw stuff and lower heat capacity to a locked 30 or something with true DHS existing. Though, that has it's own issues, but, hey, PTS is meant for testing stuff to balance it all out.

I don't see PGI understanding what is what when these changes make no sense from a standpoint. IS LL didn't need a nerf, and even if those changes had to stick, the CERMED would have to be nerfed heavily (even back to where they are on live currently, if not worse).

DAYLEET, on 01 September 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

Why didnt the 30points of damage free before drainage+heat work? Why do they have to go weapon by weapon balancing?

Believe it or not, there are plenty of other weapons (like LBX, CUACs of certain versions) that are still pretty bad off.

If balance were done incrementally instead of randomly (overbuffing or overnerfing), this would not be the situation.

[Wintersdark]

DAYLEET, on 01 September 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

Why didnt the 30points of damage free before drainage+heat work? Why do they have to go weapon by weapon balancing?

because 1 damage != 1 damage. 10 ppfld damage is objectively superior to 10 damage delivered over 1s and probably (or certainly) spread.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Mystere, on 01 September 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

It's still a test. so I assume the numbers are still not going to the liver servers.

Yeah, but do we need to "test" how balanced the PPCs will be in this situation? I mean, the 12 ton / 4 slot CERPPC setup seems so much better than the 21 tons / 9 slots of IS PPC needed to accomplish the same damage, heat, and energy draw that I don't think there's any need to "test" it.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 01 September 2016 - 05:27 PM.

[Felbombling]

Try giving the Gauss Rifle five heat instead of one. I think that would discourage players from having it as a damage enhancement over and above their energy weapon cap.

[Deathlike]

I wrote this thread in order to clarify the differences between weapons and their effectiveness. This includes range for weapons that have spread (bad for LBX+MGs).

http://mwomercs.com/...oldown-modules/

Maybe it's just Lostech. I dunno.

[FupDup]

Prosperity Park, on 01 September 2016 - 05:25 PM, said:

Yeah, but do we need to "test" how balanced the PPCs will be in this situation? I mean, the 12 ton / 4 slot CERPPC setup seems so much better than the 21 tons / 9 slots of IS PPC needed to accomplish the same damage, heat, and energy draw that I don't think there's any need to "test" it.

Also note that the saved weight and slots allow for more heatsinks, meaning that the 2 CERPPC setup will have superior heat efficiency over the 3 ISPPC setup.

[N0MAD]

Deathlike, on 01 September 2016 - 04:46 PM, said:

Believe it or not... SHS also increased heat capacity (back then and now). So, that's wholly inaccurate. You may not have noticed it, but it's there.



Just wanted to expand on my earlier comments...

Reducing the energy draw on the IS LL is like trying to set up a 2 second CERLL that has zero Ghost Heat/Energy Draw penalties... just because the energy draw value is lowered, doesn't make the weapon itself practical (just like MGs in the current game).

When doing your calculations, did you use the standard stats for say the LL? because with the quirks given to them on most mechs that can carry them they are a very different weapon than the Stock LL.
So have you taken the quirked LL into consideration?
Has PGI taken into account the current quirks, because a quirked weapon is a very different beast to a standard variant...

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Deathlike, on 01 September 2016 - 05:23 PM, said:

I don't see PGI understanding what is what when these changes make no sense from a standpoint. IS LL didn't need a nerf, and even if those changes had to stick, the CERMED would have to be nerfed heavily (even back to where they are on live currently, if not worse).



Believe it or not, there are plenty of other weapons (like LBX, CUACs of certain versions) that are still pretty bad off.

If balance were done incrementally instead of randomly (overbuffing or overnerfing), this would not be the situation.

Sadly I see the same thing, but, I was surprised to see the double tap hard limit on UAC's now in effect so no more triple tapping which does help. CAC's need some love, badly. I get PGI wants CAC's to work differently, but, with how spread out the shots are and the number of shots does not help. I think maybe making it so only the 10 and 20 fire multiple pellets might help in that regard or just significantly tighten up the spread between them, even then I am uncertain if that will help.

I do want over the course of the week PGI to actually tweak certain weapons incrementally each day to test values instead of doing things all at once. Do some actual science and hold everything else constant except for the one thing you are testing.

[Deathlike]

N0MAD, on 01 September 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

When doing your calculations, did you use the standard stats for say the LL? because with the quirks given to them on most mechs that can carry them they are a very different weapon than the Stock LL.
So have you taken the quirked LL into consideration?
Has PGI taken into account the current quirks, because a quirked weapon is a very different beast to a standard variant...

I assume no quirks first and foremost. Yes, those quirks will affect results, but a 10% duration isn't enough to compare against CERMEDs by the outright tonnage trading. It's a straightforward loss on that front.

[1453 R]

Sergei Pavlov, on 01 September 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:

I can't still fathom why don't they just:

1) Decrease Heat Capacity to 30,

2) Remove DHS ability to increase it.

Because firing energy weapons should be allowed. All you 30-cap folks consistently, continually, constantly forget that in your oh-so-precious tabletop game, heat sinks could absorb heat FROM THE FUTURE and nullify it before it ever touched your bar. Something that makes no sense and doesn't work in a real-time game.