190 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Johnny Z, on 12 September 2016 - 06:55 PM, said:

Some players risk perma ban to do what this charge up does to players. Its a 3 stage mechanic for some and a 1 stage for othe

wait ...what? macros are bannable now?

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 September 2016 - 06:34 PM, said:

YOU quite literally made it personal by indicating yopu were the one that wanted gauss charge rofl, dont criticize me for running with it

tl;dr: don't post if you don't want to get criticized


Havn't skilled out your sarcasm module yet?
Imo, chargeup adds to the game, much like paul said.

I merely answered the question OP raised, for reference: "Was there even a single ppl that ever waned the gauss Charge mechanic??"

Surely, he asked the question in a sientific attempt to discuss and evaluate the actual opinions about the need and implementation of a chargeup mechanic.

Not even once did it cross my mind, that OP is trying to get all butthurt about a mechanic he dislikes on a personal level.
It could not possibly be yet another pathetic attempt to pretend to be the spokesman of all of mwos playerbase.
Sporting the mindset of a kid who just has to flail his arms arround hard enough to get his point across.
Presenting his own opinion as the inevitable truth.

This is the offical forum of mechwarrior online after all.
A place where gentlemans and ladies (and attack-helicopers, the only other gender i do acknowledge) come together and constructively discuss elements of MWO in an orderly fashion and with the uttermost respect for eachother.

But behold, yet another sientific researcher from the college of "i know how to balance mwo" crawls out from under his bridge.
Raising the question that i can not possibly be a member of the playerbase. Unasked questions emerge from the back of his mind.
*A mere player actually favors the chargeup mechanic?*
*Heresy!*
*This goes against the natural order of thing, a novum so fundamental it could quite literally shake the core of the universe itself!*
*A player who is able to hold down a button and release it shortly afterwards? What's more, someone who is actually enjoying this?!*
*Nonsense!*

*Surely this must have been a dev in disquise!* he sucessfully convinced himself.

"P.. p.. paul?" He uttered in a small shy voice.

But to late! a seed has already been planted in his mind. It could quite literally be possible, that there is a real player out there who does like the chargeup mechanic!

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 September 2016 - 06:34 PM, said:

indicating YOU were THE ONE that wanted gauss

In his last, desperate attempt to explain this "anomaly", this "statistical fluke" so to speak of, he was clinging to the hope that this must have been exceptional. A rouge opinion, Distorted and misinterpreted over the interwebs. There can not possible be more likely minded people be out there?
Or.. or can they?

Little did he know that i were not one but one of many, but that is a story for another time.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Beyond that, I was hoping the CERPPC got 15 PPD dmg....but its back to 10/5....ugh.

[ice trey]

The reason I hated MW4 online is because of the poptarting. In fact, it got so bad that the only viable tactic was to get the biggest machine you could find with JJ and poptart-alpha at about a kilometer away. Every other tactic was useless.

It was looking very much like it was going to be the same in MWO from the time that the Victor was announced. Players were griping for a jump-capable assault for months, and you could be sure that as soon as they got it, that's exactly what the game devolved into. Not unlike how ghost heat had to be built into the game to combat 6ppc stalkers, the gauss charge had to be included to not make poptarting the one-and-only viable mechanic. Match quality improved soon after.

Though I will admit that I do wish that the audio cues were a little more on-the-ball with the GR. Sound rarely matches up with when the shot is charged, meaning you can let go a bit too early or a bit too late, especially when every other sound is getting drowned out by clan autocannon BANGBANGBGBABGBANAGNABANG and can't see a damned thing out of your viewscreen.

Edited by ice trey, 13 September 2016 - 04:03 AM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

ice trey, on 13 September 2016 - 03:58 AM, said:

Not unlike how ghost heat had to be built into the game to combat 6ppc stalkers,

Have you been to the pts lately? Was sitting in a basic awesome, aphla striking quad ppc 3-4 times in a row.

[Aramoro999]

ice trey, on 13 September 2016 - 03:58 AM, said:

It was looking very much like it was going to be the same in MWO from the time that the Victor was announced. Players were griping for a jump-capable assault for months, and you could be sure that as soon as they got it, that's exactly what the game devolved into. Not unlike how ghost heat had to be built into the game to combat 6ppc stalkers, the gauss charge had to be included to not make poptarting the one-and-only viable mechanic. Match quality improved soon after.

I dont know if ERPPC + Gauss is ever gonna be a thing again, 2 high power use weapons, and that's without talking about jump jet power draw.

Edited by Aramoro999, 13 September 2016 - 04:10 AM.

[meteorol]

The inability of a (vocally) notable part of the playerbase to press a button and release it shortly after really speakes volumes about this games playerbase.

Edited by meteorol, 13 September 2016 - 04:44 AM.

[AnarchyBurger]

God I cant believe they kept this pile of @#$% mechanic. I remember when they added it in beta, and they persist to keep it even though there was a plethora of better fixes (lazy). And for the defenders... Not only is it a BAD mechanic (unless you pass it with macros), but its a stupid mechanic (yes we have giant mechs, but have been unable to figure out how to not hold our finger on a button trigger to fire and let go of a weapon...)

[Lightfoot]

Nerdboard, on 12 September 2016 - 09:42 PM, said:

Charge back is a very good decision.

@LordNothing: If you want to go much more in the direction of books or tabletop then you need to make it much much harder to aim for components. There also shouldnt be anything like weapon convergence then. That is the actual reason why boating is much more effective here (and most stock loadouts are still bullcrap even then).

@Lightfoot: If you think mechs with single gauss rifles dont work then maybe you havent mastered the charge mechanic or the weapon after all. They still perform well for me.

No the charge-up makes the Gauss Rifle a 2xGauss balanced weapon. 2xGauss was why they had to add the charge-up. And what makes the Gauss Rifle better than other ballistics is that it's the only one that has not had it's velocity nerfed to the bare minimum. Current AC20 is about half the speed it should be. Making all the weapons mediocre is not a good balance point. The reason why all the weapons in MWO have to be mediocre in function is because the mechs are too weak for MWO's 2x recycle on most weapons, but PGI loves the action generated by the 2x recycle so it stays, but if you advocate Table Top rules this is a major violation. The mech combat is much more tactically nuanced with normal recycles on major weapons of 6-8 seconds. You can easily guard your CT at those recycle speeds adding minutes to TTKs.

There is no weapon convergence if you move your mech laterally to your attacker, except from groups of the same weapon. They all have different travel times. Table Top used random To-Hit dice rolls to emulate movement, but in a full motion simulation you no longer need to emulate movement, it's controlled by the mech pilots.

And you will just have to trust me when I say I have mastered the Gauss charge-up. And the tricks to getting it to work as well as any weapon out there, especially at short range, but it feels like you are using some gimmick that few players know about. Nothing much would change balance-wise if the charge-up were removed, it just blocks some weapon pairings, but it would be equally viable as 1x Gauss or 2x Gauss as portrayed by Battle Tech configurations. And Battle Tech is what PGI should be trying to emulate in MWO.

Edited by Lightfoot, 13 September 2016 - 05:56 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Johnny Z, on 12 September 2016 - 06:55 PM, said:

You said it....



That is what this entire thing is about. Some players risk perma ban to do what this charge up does to players. Its a 3 stage mechanic for some and a 1 stage for others.

It may even be considered 4 stage to some degree. Click, wait, release/aim. This while piloting. Single gauss doing all this meanwhile using other weapons is ridiculous.

I laugh at the guys saying they are not using macros. Hilarious.

some of us can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Increase Gauss to 8 ht, and in crease it's cooldown time, and then maybe there is room for consideration of talking about removing the charge.

But just because some here apparently have the coordination of an inebriated lower primate, doesn't mean the rest of the world need use macro crutches to make it work. It's not rocket science or ballet we are talking about. It's literally *click* *hold til tone or visual cue* *release*

So easy even a caveman can do it.

Johnny Z, on 12 September 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

What like anyone takes you seriously. If this were a topic about aim bots it would be going the exact same way. Ver batum. (word for word)

Some players would be protesting and others would be saying it doesn't happen.

As it is there are some saying aiming, pressing, timing, releasing, piloting and using other weapons at the same time is easier without macros. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Have no idea if it's easier without macros, because I'm too lazy to program a macro.

also: "verbatim".

Using "big words" to make your argument sound better only works if you can spell and use them correctly.

[AnarchyBurger]

Lets also put it this way.... How often do you see a gauss....? Once a match maybe? How often do you see AC, or lasers, or hell even LRMs. Gauss is currently crap. And just because people want to keep it their "tryhard special weapon" does not mean its a good weapon, or mechanic.

[Bishop Steiner]

LordNothing, on 12 September 2016 - 07:46 PM, said:

gauss charge (as well as uac doubletap and mechanics like them in other games) are cheap mechanics used to make a weapon stand out from its peers, and i find it goes against the grain of what mechwarrior weapons are supposed to be. it would be totally acceptable in a fighting game or even a more cartoonish shooter like descent (remember the fusion cannon), where every weapon needs to be a character and stand out from the others. but its totally out of character for mechwarrior (and other mechanics, like those gates in fp that dont make any sense from a defensive standpoint, or why the enemy is leaving their intel out all over the place in beacons).

mechwarrior (and battletech in general, at least from a lore standpoint) is meant to be a pseudo-realistic analysis of futuristic mechanized combat. mechwarrior has always had this elegant fire control system. weapons are not meant to stand out from each other except for type and stats. they are meant to be used together in in user defined groupings and in various modes that make them part of a grand system. firing is instant but every trigger pull has consequences (mostly heat related). but mechanics like charge and double tapping (or as i call it, button mashing) really dont belong in a mechwarrior game. none of the other mechwarrior games did this, they didnt need to. when one weapon has a mechanic that makes it slightly harder to use than the others then it stands out like a sore thumb and ruins the whole thing. people end up boating gauss and uacs because they cant use them in conjunction with other weapons effectively. sure good players dont care and im used to the mechanics, but they just dont belong. then theres the problem that they are using it as a balancing tool, and thats not a good reason to do a mechanic like that.

Sounds good in theory.

Except that the Gauss in Battletech is inherently unbalanced and obsoletes literally ALL other ballistics, which is exactly what happened before the Charge Up was added.

If you want to go with Pseudo Realism, the we need one of two thing,s or "for more realism" both:

1) For Energy Draw to be actual energy draw, not Revamped Ghost Heat in Disguise, and quite literally there be a power bar that recharges at a set rate, with each weapon drawing from that. Gauss, PPC and Large Lasers all take a considerable amount of energy, and while reactors provide "limitless" (not really but for practical day to day considerations, close enough) they do only put out so much at any given second, hence why there are issues with the current Gerald Ford aircraft carriers reactors not generating enough power for it's magnetic catapults. So a true Energy Draw causing staggered fire of heavy energy weapons is part of your "realism".

2) Gauss weaponry (neither coil nor rail guns) are "heatless" and in fact between dumping massive amount of electricity trough the coils/rails and the huge plasma ball created by the launching of the projectile, should actually be amongst the highest heat ballistic weapons. Especially since you consider all the heat generated by an AC10 or 20 comes from the superheated ball off gas created by it's propellant... essentially no different than the fireball that follows a railgun launch.



Either of those two things would allow the charge up to be removed, without destroying the more important consideration: BALANCE.

I don't particularly like the charge up. But let's be honest and realistic about why it's there.

AnarchyBurger, on 13 September 2016 - 05:33 AM, said:

Lets also put it this way.... How often do you see a gauss....? Once a match maybe? How often do you see AC, or lasers, or hell even LRMs. Gauss is currently crap. And just because people want to keep it their "tryhard special weapon" does not mean its a good weapon, or mechanic.

frequency of Gauss depends on 2 things...your tier, and the current meta. With Mixed Weapon /SRM being the current meta, it's not that "Gauss is crap", it's that the weapon has no synergy with the current meta. Hence why a long derided "crap" weapon is being seen in tryhard builds again, the LB-X, because they combine well with SRMs.

[Bishop Steiner]

RestosIII, on 12 September 2016 - 08:37 PM, said:

Or just 8-10 second cooldowns. Please?

They tried long cooldowns (though I guess no that long) in the PTS. They haven't tried heat. Cool Running Gauss Weapon is an oxymoron, in reality. And it's the ability to tie in a no heat weapon with high heat weapons (like PPCs) that was the issue in the first place. Long cooldown reduces it's DPS but not the ability to dump a massive one shot alpha.

8-10 heat on the other hand, would. And actually be realistic, if not lore friendly.

El Bandito, on 12 September 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

15 PPFLD, 2000 m/s, 1 heat weapon needs more drawbacks than just exploding when critted. PGI should break with the lore in this case and give significant amount of heat to the Gauss. Then it doesn't need charge-up, or boat limitations, or other balancing mechanisms.

been saying this since before the charge up was added.

Most people just QQ at the thought of their favorite no heat/near hitscan ezmode crutch beatstick having any limitations.

Lightfoot, on 12 September 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:

No PGI has bowed to failure on making the Gauss Rifle work. They just accepted they can't have a Gauss Rifle in MWO. I mastered the charge mechanic, but it's not from Battle Tech and it screws over all the mechs that can't carry two.

this from the guy who spent the last two years raging that the charge up was impossible to use from their joystick?

[Bishop Steiner]

LordKnightFandragon, on 13 September 2016 - 03:40 AM, said:

Beyond that, I was hoping the CERPPC got 15 PPD dmg....but its back to 10/5....ugh.

yes, because it obviously should have been delivering 50% more damage than it's IS counterpart, for 1 less ton, 1 less crit... that sounds like a grand game balance. (and don't even start on the "but IS has std PPC" malarky with it's minimum rang,e lower velocity, etc... while still weighing a ton more and taking up an extra crit compared to the Clan ERPPC... the extra heat more than made up for by immortal XLs, and 7 crit Endo/Ferro making plenty of room for more DHS than the equivalent IS mech.

Since PGI decided that asymmetric balance would not work in a "everyone welcome F2P/PvP" game, I'm truly sorry you don't get your free lunch lightning rod of destiny. (and yes, Quirks, except I still want most of them removed, too)

[HammerMaster]

meteorol, on 13 September 2016 - 04:44 AM, said:

The inability of a (vocally) notable part of the playerbase to press a button and release it shortly after really speakes volumes about this games playerbase.

You say it as if I'm unable to press/release. I learned. Hate it. Refuse to use it. Weapon shelved. I think a check box choice can be implemented.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lightfoot, on 13 September 2016 - 05:12 AM, said:

2xGauss was why they had to add the charge-up.

LOL! Uh...no.

It was the combination of 2x PPC/ERPPC with Gauss that caused them to add the charge up (Hint: It was one of the many steps taken in their ham fisted attempt to nerf Poptarts...none of which were capable of using 2x Gauss at the time)... since the charge up does nothing to hinder firing 2 Gauss together. Then after the clan invasion and people playing around with 3-4 Gauss DWFs that they added the mechanic to limit it to only able to fire 2x Gauss at a time.

It's much easier to have an argument taken seriously, when one actually has their facts straight, instead of guessing or making crap up.

[Bishop Steiner]

HammerMaster, on 13 September 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

You say it as if I'm unable to press/release. I learned. Hate it. Refuse to use it. Weapon shelved. I think a check box choice can be implemented.

Great! Personal choice! I don't much care for it either, hence why I only have a couple mechs with them. Doesn't alter the reality of the gross imbalance they had without a charge up. And obviously the charge up isn't that detrimental, since as soon as poptarting was broken all the Tryhards magically learned how to use Gauss again (at least once all the other ezmode cool running ballistics were desynced from the PPCs, too)

[MeiSooHaityu]

Gauss charge mechanic is fine IMO.

The problem I have with the Gauss Rifle is that it explodes if you even look at it funny. I don't run a Gauss Rifle too frequently, and when I do, it is mostly in a Clan Mech. I almost never run it in an IS mech because once the armor is gone in the Gauss location, it explodes and often does enough damage to destroy my mech. Even if the rifle is in the arm, I have still fallen victim to the damage transfer knocking out my side torso.

If the Gauss wasn't a time bomb, I'd use it more.

[Bishop Steiner]

MeiSooHaityu, on 13 September 2016 - 06:06 AM, said:

Gauss charge mechanic is fine IMO.

The problem I have with the Gauss Rifle is that it explodes if you even look at it funny. I don't run a Gauss Rifle too frequently, and when I do, it is mostly in a Clan Mech. I almost never run it in an IS mech because once the armor is gone in the Gauss location, it explodes and often does enough damage to destroy my mech. Even if the rifle is in the arm, I have still fallen victim to the damage transfer knocking out my side torso.

If the Gauss wasn't a time bomb, I'd use it more.

If Gauss had mondo heat, they could probably increase it's health, too.

That or halve it's detonation value.

[HammerMaster]

Yes poptarting got us gauss and jj nerfs. I love your enthusiasm for balance Bishop. I think there has to be a comprimise. With charge I won't use gauss. No charge I will. And without abuse. I get it that others will exploit it. Where is the middle ground?