206 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Ghogiel, on 16 October 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

The only point I think that guy was making is pugging is worse durings tournies and events. Which is like ALL the time these days. It has nothing to do with good players.

I guess. Many players wouldn't be playing the game if there wasn't an event in the first place. The related issue though is that it does include arguably more of the casuals (remember that comp level players are the minority), so it's not as if you're getting more quality necessarily.. just "quantity".

[Ghogiel]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 October 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

It's not that strange, considering a solo match is not at all played like a competitive match. They are technically out of their element.

And 9/10, that good player in question is dead because he drifted too far from the blob or tried to stay at the back of the blob and got ganked.

Strawman

Good players are not out of their element in solo play lmao.

[dervishx5]

Ghogiel, on 16 October 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

Strawman

Good players are not out of their element in solo play lmao.

He said competitive, not just good. Good is too vague. A competitive player that's used to his teammates being competent is going to feel a little out of place playing with pugs. He (or she) has to play more selfishly which, in a team environment, is the exact opposite of what you should be doing.

Edited by dervishx5, 16 October 2016 - 09:42 AM.

[Ghogiel]

dervishx5, on 16 October 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

He said competitive, not just good. Good is too vague. A competitive player that's used to his teammates being competent is going to feel a little out of place playing with pugs. He (or she) has to play more selfishly which, in a team environment, is the exact opposite of what you should be doing.

It's still pretty absurd. Comp players are good solo. Comp team play is a layer on top of individual skill. You just aren't on a top team if you are a potato in solo queue.

[El Bandito]

Snowbluff, on 16 October 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

They already did. Those are called quirks.

And they are not addressing the issue well enough. PGI derped hard the moment they decided to solely use quirks to cover IS deficiencies.

If PGI had balanced base tech from day one, then there would be much less imbalance between IS and Clans, and less quirks to go around.

Edited by El Bandito, 16 October 2016 - 09:54 AM.

[Snowbluff]

El Bandito, on 16 October 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

And they are not addressing the issue well enough. PGI derped hard the moment they decided to solely use quirks to cover IS deficiencies.

If PGI had balanced base tech from day one, then there would be much less imbalance between IS and Clans, and less quirks to go around.

No, quirks are good. Quirks should be in the game. This is a fact.

The problem is that a mech isn't just good because it has Clan Tech or bad just because it has IS Tech. Geometry, hitboxes, and geometry will be very important. Even most of the "best" clan mechs have less than ideal geometry. The Kodiak is an actual example of a Clan Mech that uses really good hardpoints, and it is strong because of that combination, but if they just blanket nerfed clan tech or blanket buffed IS tech, and just didn't have quirks, all of the clan mechs with less than ideal geometry will fall into disuse, and we'll have an actual balance problem with the game.

PPFLD will be fixed (nerfed, in reality) with PD. Clan PPFLD will always make more heat than IS PPFLD, and this will be exacerbated by PD due to the higher "damage" of the C-ERPPC. Until it's released, all of this is just bellyaching.

[dervishx5]

Ghogiel, on 16 October 2016 - 09:46 AM, said:

It's still pretty absurd. Comp players are good solo. Comp team play is a layer on top of individual skill. You just aren't on a top team if you are a potato in solo queue.

Yeah NS is really bad at the game. Those guys suck.

[Ultimax]

Appogee, on 16 October 2016 - 05:50 AM, said:

[/font]I'm seeing a couple of guys on my team doing this, every match, hanging back and poking. Often, good players, too.

They are usually the last to die. But I feel like they sometimes cause the team to lose because they leave the rest of the team who are brawling in an imbalanced frontline battle.

Ideally, we'd be playing a game where different playstyles, from sniping to brawling and in-between, are all viable. But while there are certain very powerful Mechs with high-mounted hardpoints able to deliver massive PPFLD while staying 90% behind cover, it's no wonder people are adopting the poking gameplay style.

Sorry, but those aren't good players.


Build is irrelevant, good players will almost always go aggressive in the queues and if you're dropping as a team it's pretty silly for you to not be aligned with each others build ranges.


Either that, or your brawler's need to learn to let them soften the enemy up and score a few kills before they rush in - then the front line won't be unbalanced.

Edited by Ultimax, 16 October 2016 - 10:05 AM.

[El Bandito]

Snowbluff, on 16 October 2016 - 10:00 AM, said:

No, quirks are good. Quirks should be in the game. This is a fact.

The problem is that a mech isn't just good because it has Clan Tech or bad just because it has IS Tech. Geometry, hitboxes, and geometry will be very important. Even most of the "best" clan mechs have less than ideal geometry. The Kodiak is an actual example of a Clan Mech that uses really good hardpoints, and it is strong because of that combination, but if they just blanket nerfed clan tech or blanket buffed IS tech, and just didn't have quirks, all of the clan mechs with less than ideal geometry will fall into disuse, and we'll have an actual balance problem with the game.

PPFLD will be fixed (nerfed, in reality) with PD. Clan PPFLD will always make more heat than IS PPFLD, and this will be exacerbated by PD due to the higher "damage" of the C-ERPPC. Until it's released, all of this is just bellyaching.

I didn't say we didn't need quirks. I said, PGI derped the moment they relied solely on quirks. Need to read more carefully there, mate. Can't have proper argument otherwise.

Edited by El Bandito, 16 October 2016 - 10:09 AM.

[Ghogiel]

dervishx5, on 16 October 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

Yeah NS is really bad at the game. Those guys suck.

A bit harsh since they were decent at one time, but fair enough.

[Y E O N N E]

Ghogiel, on 16 October 2016 - 09:46 AM, said:

It's still pretty absurd. Comp players are good solo. Comp team play is a layer on top of individual skill. You just aren't on a top team if you are a potato in solo queue.

It's not absurd, you just don't have the experience to relate.

[Ghogiel]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 October 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

It's not absurd, you just don't have the experience to relate.

Quality falacy. much substantive.

[dervishx5]

Ghogiel, on 16 October 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

Quality falacy. much substantive.

Much like "You just aren't on a top team if you are a potato in solo queue."

[Ghogiel]

dervishx5, on 16 October 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

Much like "You just aren't on a top team if you are a potato in solo queue."

It's going to take some real good mental gymnastics to argue that top comp team players are potatoes in solo queue.

[dervishx5]

Ghogiel, on 16 October 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

It's going to take some real good mental gymnastics to argue that top comp team players are potatoes in solo queue.

At least as many as it took to jump to that black and white world you're living in. But absolutes are easier to deal with than generalities.

[Ghogiel]

dervishx5, on 16 October 2016 - 10:24 AM, said:

At least as many as it took to jump to that black and white world you're living in. But absolutes are easier to deal with than generalities.

That black and white statement is going to stand very well against this sort of reasoning.

[Snowbluff]

El Bandito, on 16 October 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

I didn't say we didn't need quirks. I said, PGI derped the moment they relied solely on quirks. Need to read more carefully there, mate. Can't have proper argument otherwise.

No, I read what you said, and refuted it by saying other factors contribute.

Also, your premise is busted anyway. Clan and IS stuff aren't purely balanced by quirks. Clan XL engines and ER laser range changes come to mind. Lack of PPLFD autocannons, wider SRM spread, and streaming LRMs do as well. "Solely" is entirely wrong.

Edited by Snowbluff, 16 October 2016 - 10:30 AM.

[xWiredx]

If PPC and Gauss is now the meta, then it takes 4 years to go full circle I guess. Welcome back to closed beta.

I honestly haven't seen much more than normal, though.

[dervishx5]

Ghogiel, on 16 October 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

That black and white statement is going to stand very well against this sort of reasoning.

So you're saying a competitive player isn't going to be frustrated with the lack of teamwork in a pug match, which is what my original point was.

Have fun defending that.

[Ultimax]

dervishx5, on 16 October 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

He said competitive, not just good. Good is too vague. A competitive player that's used to his teammates being competent is going to feel a little out of place playing with pugs. He (or she) has to play more selfishly which, in a team environment, is the exact opposite of what you should be doing.

In my experience, this really isn't true.


For starters its not like dropping in the group queue as a 2 to 4 man is any better than dropping solo.

You still have most of a team of unknowns (and likely full potatoes) that you have to play around and use as bullet shields.

So many strats you'd see in a comp match, don't even get used in the pug queues because its rarely even worth it - even if you are a 10 or 12 man (because the enemy team is likely to be doing some derpy stuff and you'll be wasting your time).


I'll go out on a limb and say the majority of actually good comp players, playing on good teams are probably good when playing solo as well.