164 replies to this topic

[Calh Paw]

1453 R, on 02 November 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

...

You want to cut the KDK-3's quirks? A'ight, do that. See what happens there, continue as required from that point. Cut its quirks, AND cut its twist arcs in half, AND cut its pitch range in more-than-half, AND bring in the dakka nerfage from the ED PTS runs, AND hit it with structure/agility redquirks, AND [X]...? All at once?

Too much. That's the sort of pull-ALL-the-levers(!!) tomfuggery we all keep yelling at Paul to stop doing. Why are we yelling at him to start doing it again now?

I think that you are overreacting.

Except for some clear troll posts, most people in this thread argued for reasonable, targeted nerfs.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 02 November 2016 - 10:04 AM, said:

Is now the time we bring out Aphex' stats?

I mean, he did break 1 Kd ratio in half of the seasons, good on him.
135ish Assault matches since the beginning of leaderboards

His Assault K/d ratio maxes at 2.5...in the last season where he had 3 Assault Matches


Mine (predominantly in Kodiaks, primarily PokeBears but some DakkaBears too) did not fall below 5 K/d, with a min of 32 matches, and a max of 94 matches (w/8.48 K/d and 3.09 W/L)



This is why we don't balance by Potato
You get guys like this, trying to defend what they don't understand.

The moral of today's story is: Always watch who you say "Git gud" too

[Mystere]

GrimRiver, on 02 November 2016 - 07:46 AM, said:

Is there any reason to take another assault over the KDK-3's 100 tons, mobility, high mounted hardpoints and structure buffs?

Yes, it's called "fun". Or did people completely forget about that concept entirely?

[1453 R]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 November 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

That it is a tier 2 assault thanks to a bunch of blanket nerfs rather than iterative changes. Don't get me wrong I don't expect PGI to just nerf the KDK-3 because it is PGI, but at this point I'm ok with that just to see things change and assaults to be more diverse than they are and were during the Whale days.

What I'd like to see, as a process people undertake before starting these threads, is the following. Ask yourself, in series:

"Would the change I am about to suggest for hammering the KDK-3 down be too harsh, if it was also applied to every other Kodiak in the game, and also every Executioner and every Highlander IIC?" [Y/N]

If [Y]:

"Am I okay with the fact that this change will ruin fourteen other machines in the game, in order to ensure that the KDK-3 is properly unable to defeat Maulers, Banshees, or Atlases in combat?" [Y/N]

If [Y]:

"Why do I hate this game and all my fellow players?"

The issue is that Piranha targets its nerfs with the same software they use for Long Tom blasts in Commodity Warfare, and yet nobody accounts for this when they start ladling out three-page lists of all the things that need to be done to the KDK-3 to stop the Bad Touch Bear from bad-touching.

Nobody cares that the Spirit Bear is hanging on by a thread as it is. NERF ALL DA BEARZ

Nobody cares that the other Kodiaks range from mediocre to execrable. NERF ALL DA BEARZ

Nobody cares that the vast majority of the Clan assault classification clocks in somewhere below the low-end KDKs on the 'Execrable' end of the scale. NERF ALL DA BEARZ. AND ALL DA EVR'THINZ ELZE.

In an ideal world? The KDK-3 would be clocked back a bit but allowed to actually remain a potnt threat you had to account for if you saw one on the other end of the field, the Highlander-IIC would stop being a bad punchline, the Warhawk would not be Baby Brother's Whale Cosplay, the Gargoyle would have more firepower than my Vipers, and the other Kodiaks would BE LEFT THE GODDAMN HELL ALONE because they're not problematic in any respect

In the world proposed by this thread and most other KDK-3 threads? The KDK-3 is a worse punchline with a checkered past, the rest of the Kodiak chassis is collateral damage, and we all go back to waiting for the Blood Asp to be released so the Clans can have a machine that can beat a Mauler at less than three-to-one odds - until they pound the Asp down into paste too, anyways. Because as the KDK-3 has conclusively demonstrated, no Clan machine above the medium weight bracket is permitted to have both advantageous hardpoints and also a non-disastrous base chassis under those hardpoints. The moment you have a Clan machine with good weapons in good mounts on a good base?

The hammers come out, and they don't go away again until two out of three of those things are no longer true.

[Gas Guzzler]

1453 R, on 02 November 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

What I'd like to see, as a process people undertake before starting these threads, is the following. Ask yourself, in series:

"Would the change I am about to suggest for hammering the KDK-3 down be too harsh, if it was also applied to every other Kodiak in the game, and also every Executioner and every Highlander IIC?" [Y/N]

If [Y]:

"Am I okay with the fact that this change will ruin fourteen other machines in the game, in order to ensure that the KDK-3 is properly unable to defeat Maulers, Banshees, or Atlases in combat?" [Y/N]

If [Y]:

"Why do I hate this game and all my fellow players?"

The issue is that Piranha targets its nerfs with the same software they use for Long Tom blasts in Commodity Warfare, and yet nobody accounts for this when they start ladling out three-page lists of all the things that need to be done to the KDK-3 to stop the Bad Touch Bear from bad-touching.

Nobody cares that the Spirit Bear is hanging on by a thread as it is. NERF ALL DA BEARZ

Nobody cares that the other Kodiaks range from mediocre to execrable. NERF ALL DA BEARZ

Nobody cares that the vast majority of the Clan assault classification clocks in somewhere below the low-end KDKs on the 'Execrable' end of the scale. NERF ALL DA BEARZ. AND ALL DA EVR'THINZ ELZE.

In an ideal world? The KDK-3 would be clocked back a bit but allowed to actually remain a potnt threat you had to account for if you saw one on the other end of the field, the Highlander-IIC would stop being a bad punchline, the Warhawk would not be Baby Brother's Whale Cosplay, the Gargoyle would have more firepower than my Vipers, and the other Kodiaks would BE LEFT THE GODDAMN HELL ALONE because they're not problematic in any respect

In the world proposed by this thread and most other KDK-3 threads? The KDK-3 is a worse punchline with a checkered past, the rest of the Kodiak chassis is collateral damage, and we all go back to waiting for the Blood Asp to be released so the Clans can have a machine that can beat a Mauler at less than three-to-one odds - until they pound the Asp down into paste too, anyways. Because as the KDK-3 has conclusively demonstrated, no Clan machine above the medium weight bracket is permitted to have both advantageous hardpoints and also a non-disastrous base chassis under those hardpoints. The moment you have a Clan machine with good weapons in good mounts on a good base?

The hammers come out, and they don't go away again until two out of three of those things are no longer true.

For the last ******* time. No one is trying to nerf all the bears. No one is advocating the nerfing of all the bears. If they are they are as clueless as the guy saying the KDK-3 doesn't need a slight re-adjustment.

If PGI can't adjust the KDK-3 without nerfing the rest of the bears then that is on them.

The title of this thread is "A Way to Nerf the KDK-3" not all the other Kodiaks. The people who you are currently arguing with don't want to nerf all the bears, so stop acting like that.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 November 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

If PGI can't adjust the KDK-3 without nerfing the rest of the bears then that is on them.

Just putting it out there, this inevitable, they will nerf all Kodiaks just like they nerfed all the Battlemasters (except the good one). That said, I personally am ok with that collateral damage as long as they appropriately nerf the KDK-3. So long as our balance overlord relies on dartboards we will never get the balance we want, only the balance he thinks we deserve.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 November 2016 - 10:18 AM.

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 November 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Why should the Kodiak have more twist range than a Dire Wolf? It shouldn't. And Ironically, the BLR-1G is actually still a decent mech given its quirks and high mounts, regardless of its twist range, but the KDK-3 deserves to have that range more, because of its firepower.

So why not give the Dire Wolf the Kodiaks twist range instead?

[Gas Guzzler]

Mystere, on 02 November 2016 - 10:23 AM, said:

So why not give the Dire Wolf the Kodiaks twist range instead?

Not opposed to that, but its still 52 kph compared do the Kodiaks 70 kph and superior shoulder mounts.

I'm still saying just remove its positive quirks to start. If there is any mech in this game that doesn't need quirks, its the KDK-3.

[Widowmaker1981]

Mystere, on 02 November 2016 - 10:23 AM, said:

So why not give the Dire Wolf the Kodiaks twist range instead?

They should do that as well. And they should give the Dire structure quirks too. The Dire should be better at SOMETHING or what is the point of it being much slower with much worse geometry and much worse hardpoint location?

[1453 R]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 November 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

For the last ******* time. No one is trying to nerf all the bears. No one is advocating the nerfing of all the bears. If they are they are as clueless as the guy saying the KDK-3 doesn't need a slight re-adjustment.

If PGI can't adjust the KDK-3 without nerfing the rest of the bears then that is on them.

The title of this thread is "A Way to Nerf the KDK-3" not all the other Kodiaks. The people who you are currently arguing with don't want to nerf all the bears, so stop acting like that.

Then what do you want?

Because my buzzing through the thread here gave me plenty of folks with multilayered lists of what to do to "the Kodiak" in order to ensure it doesn't make it into games anymore.

What is 'balance'? Is 'balance' anywhere near to "the KDK-3 is still a vicious threat that cannot be ignored, but is no longer 100% dominant in tournament play"? That seems to be what everyone is paying lip service to, right after their proposed all-at-once package of KDK-3 "adjustments" which include but are not limited to:

-elimination of all quirks
-cut twist arcs
-cut pitch arc
-negative agility (preferably to sub-Whale levels of lack-of-mobility)
-negative structure
-negative ammo
-negative (disadvantageous) heat gen/dissipation
-ballistic jam increase/ballistic jam chance added to non-Quack guns
-removal of energy hardpoints
-removal of ballistic hardpoints

That doesn't really sound like the proposal of someone who's still fine with having to worry about dangerous Kodiaks in their 'balanced' MWO game.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 November 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

Just putting it out there, this inevitable, they will nerf all Kodiaks just like they nerfed all the Battlemasters (except the good one). That said, I personally am ok with that collateral damage as long as they appropriately nerf the KDK-3. So long as our balance overlord relies on dartboards we will never get the balance we want, only the balance he thinks we deserve.

This is why I'm not playing much anymore, or spending any more money on MWO. I'm not okay with destroying the entire Kodiak chassis. I'm not okay with them NEVER doing any work on sad bad underperformers that have been sad bad underperformers since release. I'm not okay with the lack of FutureTech and the unadulterated shameless mangling of FutureTech chassis in the name of a quick f***ing buck.

And I'm not particularly okay with the fact that you guys are okay with all of that, either.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 02 November 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

And I'm not particularly okay with the fact that you guys are okay with all of that, either.

No one said they are ok with all those grievances (many of us stopped spending money a long time ago), but this isn't really the premise of the thread. It is to get the KDK-3 nerfed because it is an outlier, if our balance overlord nerfs all the Kodiaks in typical PGI fashion we will complain about that once they get there but something has to be done about the KDK-3 at some point.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 November 2016 - 10:31 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

1453 R, on 02 November 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

Then what do you want?

Because my buzzing through the thread here gave me plenty of folks with multilayered lists of what to do to "the Kodiak" in order to ensure it doesn't make it into games anymore.

What is 'balance'? Is 'balance' anywhere near to "the KDK-3 is still a vicious threat that cannot be ignored, but is no longer 100% dominant in tournament play"? That seems to be what everyone is paying lip service to, right after their proposed all-at-once package of KDK-3 "adjustments" which include but are not limited to:

-elimination of all quirks
-cut twist arcs
-cut pitch arc (maybe)

Lots of exaggerations there. But yeah, it should definitely be dangerous, and I quoted the only things I am considering at the time being, but I think the right thing to do is start by removing the quirks.

And also, you have to realize that it is very likely that people saying "the Kodiak" is PROBABLY short hand for the Kodiak-3, they are just being lazy and referring to it as the Kodiak instead of specifying the variant.

[Widowmaker1981]

1453 R, on 02 November 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

Then what do you want?

Because my buzzing through the thread here gave me plenty of folks with multilayered lists of what to do to "the Kodiak" in order to ensure it doesn't make it into games anymore.

What is 'balance'? Is 'balance' anywhere near to "the KDK-3 is still a vicious threat that cannot be ignored, but is no longer 100% dominant in tournament play"? That seems to be what everyone is paying lip service to, right after their proposed all-at-once package of KDK-3 "adjustments" which include but are not limited to:

-elimination of all quirks
-cut twist arcs
-cut pitch arc
-negative agility (preferably to sub-Whale levels of lack-of-mobility)
-negative structure
-negative ammo
-negative (disadvantageous) heat gen/dissipation
-ballistic jam increase/ballistic jam chance added to non-Quack guns
-removal of energy hardpoints
-removal of ballistic hardpoints

That doesn't really sound like the proposal of someone who's still fine with having to worry about dangerous Kodiaks in their 'balanced' MWO game.




This is why I'm not playing much anymore, or spending any more money on MWO. I'm not okay with destroying the entire Kodiak chassis. I'm not okay with them NEVER doing any work on sad bad underperformers that have been sad bad underperformers since release. I'm not okay with the lack of FutureTech and the unadulterated shameless mangling of FutureTech chassis in the name of a quick f***ing buck.

And I'm not particularly okay with the fact that you guys are okay with all of that, either.

Well, Im not okay with them nerfing the whole kodiak chassis in the name of the KDK-3. I worry that they might, because PGI. I mean.. they actually thought the OP Kodiaks at release would be the 1 and 5, when everyone who understands the game at all knew the 3 would be best by miles.

I dont LIKE that some chassis are just terribad, but i think its a much worse problem for one mech to be the absolute best in class than it is for there to be some lemons like Vindicators and Victors, from a mech variety perspective.

Id like some new weapons i guess, to fill some holes in the lineup, but PGI would have to balance them first.. and also figure out ammo switching** .. but its not a huge priority. More, better, gamemodes first.


**(i cant see why you cant just have two weapons in the UI, CLBX and CAC for example, from just mounting the LBX, then link their cooldown together. Youd have to equip two different types of ammo, but it would work, and that would allow ATMs.)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 02 November 2016 - 10:40 AM.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 01 November 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

And as McGral said, it would require unprecedented, even for PGI, levels of negative changes to a great many of the KDK's attributes to make it a Victor.

Why are you poking the Dragon Bear?

You know this is the kind of challenge he takes on and does exceptionally well....

[Calh Paw]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 November 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

Just putting it out there, this inevitable, they will nerf all Kodiaks just like they nerfed all the Battlemasters (except the good one). That said, I personally am ok with that collateral damage as long as they appropriately nerf the KDK-3. So long as our balance overlord relies on dartboards we will never get the balance we want, only the balance he thinks we deserve.

That's what I fear.

I may be a bit cynical, but I have a feeling that PGI has kept the Kodiaks this OP for this long specifically so that they can implement some global, wide-ranging nerf that will take out multiple mechs out of gameplay to make room for new ones and have the players accept it. This may also be the reason why mechs like the Highlander, Victor, Cataphract, Vindicator, etc. are consistently kept at underperforming levels.

I know that it's generally better to assume incompetence rather than malice, but it seems that this pattern of buffing the new and nerfing the old keeps repeating itself.

Anyway, it's just an observation.

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 November 2016 - 09:57 AM, said:

If its the best then it should be dialed down slightly so that it is balanced with other mechs. Sounds like solid reasoning to me.

Hmm. Let me see:

• Dial down the "best" mech.
  
• Then dial down the new "best" mech.
  
• Then dial down the new "best" mech after that.
  
• <ad infinitum>

That looks like a race to the bottom to me.

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 November 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

For the last ******* time. No one is trying to nerf all the bears. No one is advocating the nerfing of all the bears.

Sure, they just don't care about any resulting collateral damage:

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 November 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

Just putting it out there, this inevitable, they will nerf all Kodiaks just like they nerfed all the Battlemasters (except the good one). That said, I personally am ok with that collateral damage as long as they appropriately nerf the KDK-3. So long as our balance overlord relies on dartboards we will never get the balance we want, only the balance he thinks we deserve.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mystere, on 02 November 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

Hmm. Let me see:

• Dial down the "best" mech.
  
• Then dial down the new "best" mech.
  
• Then dial down the new "best" mech after that.
  
• <ad infinitum>

That looks like a race to the bottom to me.

No one was really complaining about dialing down any assault mech prior to the KDK-3, so... no?

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 November 2016 - 10:57 AM, said:

No one was really complaining about dialing down any assault mech prior to the KDK-3, so... no?

Did you seriously miss all the crying when the Dire Wolf came out and obliterated everything in front of it?

And, ahem, aren't Victors and Highlanders assaults too?

Edited by Mystere, 02 November 2016 - 11:04 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 02 November 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

Sure, they just don't care about any resulting collateral damage:

That may be because variety will still on the whole benefit even if all the Kodiaks are nerfed.