103 replies to this topic

[Burke IV]

Dont tell me its not suposed to happen, it fills all the slots. Drains you of your sanity....

[MischiefSC]

LRM types vs one another -

LRM20s are inferior to 15s for the tonnage. 3 more tons when another LRM 5 would only be 2 more tons. Because of the larger missile footprint of the 20s the additional 5 missiles you add are absolutely 100% guaranteed to, at best, hit arms on what is otherwise a clean CT hit on a stationary target. Statistically that 3 extra tons, 1 extra heat and painful addition of 0.75 to your cooldown (16%! Literally like taking no module and having no elites), all that gimping? It's getting you 3 missiles that will hit the dirt and 2 damage to their arms (maybe leg).

Take 15s and more ammo/DHS/TAG/3 MLs, whatever.

Same problem with 10s. Take 5s and 15s. You lose tonnage efficiency and too much spread increase with 10s and 20s. 5s and 15s have better tonnage efficiency and tighter grouping for total missiles in flight. 10s are 'flat', as in wide. 15s are a buckshot circle cluster. 5s to 10s will only net you about 7 missiles hitting. 15s will get you 12.

Make sense? Tonnage change and missile pattern. 5s and 15s ONLY. If you're under 40 tubes, take Artemis and keep LoS. If you're 40-60 you can probably go without Artemis but always, always try to share your armor.

[HauptmanT]

This video was excelent, and proves the point perfectly. Thanks for sharing that.

[Fyrwulf]

Chados, on 05 November 2016 - 10:28 AM, said:

I prefer to bring 30 Artemis tubes. Thirty. No more, no less. Boating is a sin, because you have no viable secondaries and you are become LRM cookie. LRMs are the hated. The entire enemy team will hunt you, so mobility is key and for real LRMing I find the Catapult to answer best because it is mobile. Though stupidly fragile, a Cat is agile and jumpable.

Why is that important? You have to think in three dimensions to LRM effectively when the entire enemy team is out to get you. Sitting in one place and LRMing away is key to death, because they will follow,your LRMs right back to you and suddenly you're getting hit by fifteen million gauss rifles, PPCs, and Kodiak 3 dakkaspam. There's no escape from that. Two or three salvoes, then move out!

You need to be fast enough to stick with your team's Kodiaks, so speed in the high 60s is a must. And secondaries are not trivial. Four ML minimum. Cat A1 can pack four SSRM2 and they've saved my bacon many times. Cat C4 and Butterbee can mix SRMs and MPL, the best mix. The best place to LRM is right at maximum SRM range, too. When they charge you, there's a window where you can hit 'em with everything you got! Plus, you're sharing armor with the brawlers, and enhancing longevity. The bad guys will focus you because they hate you more, and I've seen them ignore the Atlas or Dire Wolf standing next to me to concentrate on me. I may go down, but by then we are up 10-3 and the rout is on.

Move. Fight close. Think in three dimensions. Win.

If a Cat is the ideal boat for the reasons you stated, then a Cauldron Born is perfection. It can pack two LRM 15s and plenty of energy or ballistic hurt besides.

Also, I have to disagree with the idea that an assault can't be an effective boat. Look up the TT stats for the Longbow or Kraken 3 and tell me you could manage a KD ratio of 1.

Edited by Fyrwulf, 05 November 2016 - 04:44 PM.

[Navid A1]

HauptmanT, on 05 November 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

LoL at the try hards. Coming in here telling us "LRM20 bad" yet not even smart enough to explain why they would even have that opinion. Probably just had someone else tell them, so they repeat it.

...

Searching is OP i guess:
They are from the a test I did in the PTS... but the stats are the same as we have now.
Besides... anyone with more than 100 matches knows that LRM20 sucks badly... its just common knowledge.

[STEF_]

To OP:
Nothing is better than a weapon that has range, speed and does dmg into a single hitbox.

Guess An ""Unknown"" Shadow Secret ...of mwo.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 06 November 2016 - 12:10 AM.

[Bawbagzz]

It's a well known fact the smaller the launcher the tighter the spread.Lrm 20's spread damage way too much so are not as efficient at taking down targets.,plus you waste more ammo with the amount of missiles missing.

[Lykaon]

JediPanther, on 04 November 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

The easiest two things for any novice lrm wana-be-obi is to bring your own dam tag laser and shove the beagle active or clan active probe in your mech to cancel out that enemy ecm bubble. Out of the original lrm support catapult mechs only the A1 can not use a tag due to its lack on one (1) energy point. All other mechs can use a tag laser and even the Cat A1 can use a UAV.

Hell if you really want to cancel out ecm use a NARC with two tons ammo. 30 seconds of any ecm mech you shoot will have it canceled out PLUS your entire team can see it on the mini-map. Easiest way ever to get help killing an ecm mech because you just got eleven other mechs to notice that one mech.

Since ECM got toned down I find I don't often find myself wanting for a TAG on any missile carrier I have (even a slow moving one) So TAG isn't as mandatory as it once was.

NARC is nigh unto useless for an Inner Sphere missile carrier to equip and launch it's self unless your chassis is very fast and extremely agile. The issue is NARC range and the LRM min range don't leave much wiggle room to line up your shots.

That's about a 100m window of opertunity that quickly evaporates if your target decides to charge you. Hence the need to be fast and agile to keep the desired distance to target.

BAP on an Inner Sphere missile carrier runs into similar issues that the NARC launcher does. Essentially if your mech is close enough to the ECM to counter it chances are your missile launchers are to close to your target to deal damage. Remember your target may not be the mech with the ECM on it. That mech may be 100 meters further away and under cover.

BAP will help you counter ECM if you are engaged by an ECM equiped mech but it is likely that your LRM launchers are not the first weapon on your mind now because you're in a knife fight with an enemy ECM mech that is within it's ECM range from you (90m).

So BAP is not as important as it once was either.

Now a days learning how to pick a target and hold locks while using intelligent possitioning is the best course of action and the best served to learn rather than rely on gimicky do dads and thingys.

And this brings me to my next tip.

ALWAYS bring some reliable firepower. Significant firepower at that.

Large lasers pair very well with Inner Sphere LRMs. My reasons for saying this is lrg laser optimal range is pretty much the furthest away from a target you want to be launching LRMs at.

400 to 500m should be what you consider your LRM's actual range. Sure you can theoreticly hit a target 1km out but do you want maybe or absolutley YES?

If your choice is between more large laser or more LRM take the laser! it doesn't care about ECM doesn't need a lock and will not run out of ammo. Reliable firepower.

Want a good starter LURMer

JM6-A Jagermech

4 LRM5s
7.5 tons ammo
2 large lasers
275 std engine
13 DHS
ferro and endo

Not too expensive and totally reliant on the pilot gettin good to be good with it. no gimicks no dodads just missile/laser and learning situational awareness.

[Lykaon]

HauptmanT, on 05 November 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

LoL at the try hards. Coming in here telling us "LRM20 bad" yet not even smart enough to explain why they would even have that opinion. Probably just had someone else tell them, so they repeat it.

Thanks for adding absolutely zero to the thread except nay-say.

I call bullsxxt on that, because those LRM 20s are actually working for me. I've watched the videos of people saying "Use small launchers" too. Yet never an explanation why. Damage spread? I'm a clanner, my missiles stream not swarm. Rate of fire? I dont need to be in the open as often getting shot at. Weight? Only IS LRM5s save weight, not the clan variants.

I'm a new scrub, been playing for a couple months. so if you have good info share it. Dont just come in here saying "wrong" and nothing else.

Ordnance spread is inferior (less missiles on target)

Heat is less efficent

Cycle rate slower

tonnage less efficent

One large launcher is subject to being KO'd with a single crit hit several small launchers are not.

Less ammo efficent (can't launch a few of the 20 it's all or nothing so you are not going to be using those 10 ton monsters for probing fire or suppression much LRM5s? yeah all day)

Anything else you need to know?

[Chados]

Fyrwulf, on 05 November 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

If a Cat is the ideal boat for the reasons you stated, then a Cauldron Born is perfection. It can pack two LRM 15s and plenty of energy or ballistic hurt besides.

Also, I have to disagree with the idea that an assault can't be an effective boat. Look up the TT stats for the Longbow or Kraken 3 and tell me you could manage a KD ratio of 1.

I disagree only for two reasons: One, the EBJ can't jump. I find that when I'm LRM skirmishing (LRMishing), I need JETS. All my Cats except the K2...my least favorite...carry two jets if possible and at least one for small obstacles. Two, I don't like Clan LRMs. You get some damage in close, yes, but an Artemis 15 on a Clan mech takes forever to shoot because of the missiles ripple-firing instead of salvo-firing. A Catapult can pop-LRM with ALRM15s and drop back into cover without getting hit. It's easier to blindfire IS LRMs, also.

Assaults can run LRMs. But I say again, boating = SIN. Boats can't defend themselves or join in the direct fire game. The Zeus 9S2 or 6T are exceptional LRMishers even though they can't jump, because they can carry 3xALRM10 with six tons of reloads, and still pack a secondary armament that matters. The Stalker 3FB brings ECM plus six medium lasers to the table along with two ALRM15s, or it can pack SRMs and lasers like a C4 Cat only with more armor and no jets. Just my opinion there.

As to NARC and BAP, I like both and usually carry an active probe. Mostly for the range increase to sensors, which helps planning unless the target is under ECM. Secondarily, BAP works for SSRM2s...a must for the A1 Cat...and additionally gets you ECM Counter points, for more Cbills. And NARC makes bad guys back away when you nail them with one so it can help you exfiltrate from an ambush!

Edited by Chados, 06 November 2016 - 07:43 AM.

[JediPanther]

Lykaon, on 06 November 2016 - 03:21 AM, said:

Since ECM got toned down I find I don't often find myself wanting for a TAG on any missile carrier I have (even a slow moving one) So TAG isn't as mandatory as it once was.

NARC is nigh unto useless for an Inner Sphere missile carrier to equip and launch it's self unless your chassis is very fast and extremely agile. The issue is NARC range and the LRM min range don't leave much wiggle room to line up your shots.

That's about a 100m window of opertunity that quickly evaporates if your target decides to charge you. Hence the need to be fast and agile to keep the desired distance to target.

BAP on an Inner Sphere missile carrier runs into similar issues that the NARC launcher does. Essentially if your mech is close enough to the ECM to counter it chances are your missile launchers are to close to your target to deal damage. Remember your target may not be the mech with the ECM on it. That mech may be 100 meters further away and under cover.

BAP will help you counter ECM if you are engaged by an ECM equiped mech but it is likely that your LRM launchers are not the first weapon on your mind now because you're in a knife fight with an enemy ECM mech that is within it's ECM range from you (90m).

So BAP is not as important as it once was either.

Now a days learning how to pick a target and hold locks while using intelligent possitioning is the best course of action and the best served to learn rather than rely on gimicky do dads and thingys.

And this brings me to my next tip.

ALWAYS bring some reliable firepower. Significant firepower at that.

Large lasers pair very well with Inner Sphere LRMs. My reasons for saying this is lrg laser optimal range is pretty much the furthest away from a target you want to be launching LRMs at.

400 to 500m should be what you consider your LRM's actual range. Sure you can theoreticly hit a target 1km out but do you want maybe or absolutley YES?

If your choice is between more large laser or more LRM take the laser! it doesn't care about ECM doesn't need a lock and will not run out of ammo. Reliable firepower.

Want a good starter LURMer

JM6-A Jagermech

4 LRM5s
7.5 tons ammo
2 large lasers
275 std engine
13 DHS
ferro and endo

Not too expensive and totally reliant on the pilot gettin good to be good with it. no gimicks no dodads just missile/laser and learning situational awareness.

I'm not sure what you mean when you mention ecm being toned down. The last thing changed to ecm that I knew directly affecting ecm was its range of 180m down to 90m with every thing else about it unchanged. Tag may not be mandatory but I find it far more effective to have one versus depending on some one else to lock. In solo q you'll rarely find some one willing to be a spotter.

I also find bap still useful not just for canceling out ecm but for the increased sensor range and faster target info. I agree once you have an enemy ecm close enough that your bap is canceling it out that you really should switch to back up weapons and forget at least for the moment about lrms.

Back up weapons are indeed a must as well as decent speed. You really need to be fast enough to be with the rest of your team yet far enough out of firing range you are not the enemy's priority target or first contact. Your range of 400-500m is good From your missile jag build I'll assume you use them quite a bit and know how to lrm well with them. I prefer my catapults personally. Since I normally don't use jags i'll keep your build in mind. I'm not sure how many jags you see with lrms but the builds I most commonly find on them are ballistics such as dual ac20s or guass. Maybe the rarer srm 6 build.

I believe we both can agree that situational awareness is key for any lrm-er Be too far away from the team and you risk being swarmed by fast moving mechs. Too close and you might as well just brawl with your back up weapons. i think one thing people haven't mentioned yet is the main difference between IS and clan lrms. IS have the minimal arming range of 180m. Under 180m they do no damage while clan lrms do a small amount of damage. I still see people firing is lrms under min range either from inexperience or while having the fight back response of having an enemy at close range choosing to fire every thing.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

This thread is funny, because there's not so much useful advice.

Anyway, I've been meaning to ask about it, because I've noticed something odd about LRMs and their tracking.

So, how do the LRMs track the target?

[Magnus Santini]

Terr Kerensky, they don't. They are guided by your mech to their target. That is why lack of target lock makes them pretty much just fly in a straight line. If you reacquire a lock (often when you or your spotter peeks out again), you will see your mid-air missiles adjust their course back to where the target is now.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Magnus Santini, on 06 November 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

Terr Kerensky, they don't. They are guided by your mech to their target. That is why lack of target lock makes them pretty much just fly in a straight line. If you reacquire a lock (often when you or your spotter peeks out again), you will see your mid-air missiles adjust their course back to where the target is now.

And that's depended on the lock of my mech alone?

I've had a feeling like that because everytime I overheat and shut down, the LRMs which had lock, hit the ground where the enemy was at the moment I shut down.

And, suppose I lock a target, fire, and then quickly switch and lock another target and fire that, then the first wolley of LRMs won't hit either of the targets?

I've had a feeling like that but it's not explained anywhere. It's really funny because I've played several thousands of games.

Edited by Teer Kerensky, 06 November 2016 - 02:29 PM.

[Lykaon]

Burke IV, on 05 November 2016 - 01:05 PM, said:

Dont tell me its not suposed to happen, it fills all the slots. Drains you of your sanity....

Recommend pulling the PPC AMS and both medium lasers for twin large lasers. The LRMs are useless at point blank ranges and so is a PPC. This mech is easily defeated by a lone light in a brawl reducing your firepower to 2 x medium lasers. The light will outgun and out run you.

But start sweeping that light's legs with twin Lrg lasers and they will think twice.

Honestly my real recommendation is not using an atlas as an LRM platform. But that is the common dogma. I've seen weirder builds succeed.

[Lykaon]

JediPanther, on 06 November 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

I'm not sure what you mean when you mention ecm being toned down. The last thing changed to ecm that I knew directly affecting ecm was its range of 180m down to 90m with every thing else about it unchanged. Tag may not be mandatory but I find it far more effective to have one versus depending on some one else to lock. In solo q you'll rarely find some one willing to be a spotter.

I also find bap still useful not just for canceling out ecm but for the increased sensor range and faster target info. I agree once you have an enemy ecm close enough that your bap is canceling it out that you really should switch to back up weapons and forget at least for the moment about lrms.

Back up weapons are indeed a must as well as decent speed. You really need to be fast enough to be with the rest of your team yet far enough out of firing range you are not the enemy's priority target or first contact. Your range of 400-500m is good From your missile jag build I'll assume you use them quite a bit and know how to lrm well with them. I prefer my catapults personally. Since I normally don't use jags i'll keep your build in mind. I'm not sure how many jags you see with lrms but the builds I most commonly find on them are ballistics such as dual ac20s or guass. Maybe the rarer srm 6 build.

I believe we both can agree that situational awareness is key for any lrm-er Be too far away from the team and you risk being swarmed by fast moving mechs. Too close and you might as well just brawl with your back up weapons. i think one thing people haven't mentioned yet is the main difference between IS and clan lrms. IS have the minimal arming range of 180m. Under 180m they do no damage while clan lrms do a small amount of damage. I still see people firing is lrms under min range either from inexperience or while having the fight back response of having an enemy at close range choosing to fire every thing.

Halving the ECM bubble is exactally what I mean by "toned down" you now need to be practically hugging an ECM carrier to get coverage from it.

As for the Jager, I suggested this as a learner LURMer that also supports significant brawler potential. This mech is a good choice for learning how to fight within the skirmish line with the team. Lobbing LRMs over the front liners and taking large laser pop shots as well. It lacks an XL engine so you are less concerned about soaking some hits and that keeps your armor relivent to the fight at hand rather than standing behind a rock 900m back.

My actual go to LRM heavy is a Catapult Butterbee. But since it's a hero and cost real cash and not C-Bills I do not recommend it as a "trainer"

That Butterbee is ...

3 lrg lasers
5 x LRM 5 w/ 6.5 tons ammo
13 DHS
280xl
endo steel

I also do not recommend this build as a trainer due to needing a strong grasp of heat managment,it's very um...toasty.

[HauptmanT]

Teer Kerensky, on 06 November 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

And that's depended on the lock of my mech alone?

I've had a feeling like that because everytime I overheat and shut down, the LRMs which had lock, hit the ground where the enemy was at the moment I shut down.

And, suppose I lock a target, fire, and then quickly switch and lock another target and fire that, then the first wolley of LRMs won't hit either of the targets?

I've had a feeling like that but it's not explained anywhere. It's really funny because I've played several thousands of games.

That is what I meant that they are not "fire and forget". If you dont have the lock, they miss. You shut down, they miss. You change targets, they miss.

That's why I recommend getting your own targets. If you rely on other peoples locks, and they break, you wasted your ammo. However, because they can work off of other peoples targets, if you see a duel happening with a steady target lock, you can take advantage. Not something you can do with lasers.

As far as the LRM 20 debate... I still have to disagree. They are damn useful. Sure in a 1 vs 1 duel they arent as efficient. But how often does that happen? (never if you do it right)
However when the brawlers are getting shot at, taking off an enemies arm or side torso makes life easier on them, and here's the real kicker; It makes me much more money. I'm a poor bastaad, and need those extra destroyed components. I get more consistent money with the 20s, than I do with smaller launchers.

I even tried swapping them out on my Loki tonight. The difference was noticable.

I'll keep playing with them of course... But as for right now, I'm not convinced.

Edit add; This is the first time using 20s, since I stopped being a total newb. I used them on my first mech but had no clue what I was doing... since then I've been using 10s and more often 15s. And I'm getting much more $$ in the Loki with 2 20s. Maybe it's the ECM maybe it the spread... I tend to grind the XP with LRMs because I can get more steady xp gain, as AC or Laser boats tend to die faster in my hands.

Edited by HauptmanT, 06 November 2016 - 10:53 PM.

[El Bandito]

HauptmanT, on 06 November 2016 - 10:44 PM, said:

As far as the LRM 20 debate... I still have to disagree. They are damn useful. Sure in a 1 vs 1 duel they arent as efficient. But how often does that happen? (never if you do it right)
However when the brawlers are getting shot at, taking off an enemies arm or side torso makes life easier on them, and here's the real kicker; It makes me much more money. I'm a poor bastaad, and need those extra destroyed components. I get more consistent money with the 20s, than I do with smaller launchers.

I even tried swapping them out on my Loki tonight. The difference was noticable.

I'll keep playing with them of course... But as for right now, I'm not convinced.

On Clan launchers the weight difference might not be noticeable, but if you are using IS mechs, then spending 10 tons on each LRM20 is simply not worth it. LRM15 with 7 tons cost is waaay better deal.

[RestosIII]

HauptmanT, on 06 November 2016 - 10:44 PM, said:

That is what I meant that they are not "fire and forget". If you dont have the lock, they miss. You shut down, they miss. You change targets, they miss.

That's why I recommend getting your own targets. If you rely on other peoples locks, and they break, you wasted your ammo. However, because they can work off of other peoples targets, if you see a duel happening with a steady target lock, you can take advantage. Not something you can do with lasers.

As far as the LRM 20 debate... I still have to disagree. They are damn useful. Sure in a 1 vs 1 duel they arent as efficient. But how often does that happen? (never if you do it right)
However when the brawlers are getting shot at, taking off an enemies arm or side torso makes life easier on them, and here's the real kicker; It makes me much more money. I'm a poor bastaad, and need those extra destroyed components. I get more consistent money with the 20s, than I do with smaller launchers.

I even tried swapping them out on my Loki tonight. The difference was noticable.

I'll keep playing with them of course... But as for right now, I'm not convinced.

I seriously have no clue how you can run LRM 20's and feel like they're useful. If I'm running my Mad Dog or Timber Wolf Prime loadouts, 2x20's is PAINFUL to run, while 4x10's actually do a good job. But, whatever floats your boat as long as you don't claim it's superior and make some poor sod struggle needlessly. I run lore builds almost solely, but I don't claim they're better than optimized setups.

[Carl Vickers]

Novakaine, on 04 November 2016 - 10:00 PM, said:

Alrighty boys and girls listen up.
Haters gonna hate so let em.
Just follow some tips from Nova's handy guide.
#1. And this cannot be understated carry a damn tag.
#2. Walk the dog in other words always carry BAP.
#3. Be aware that no one is watching your back have some decent backup weapons.
You can't shoot that Locust at 75 meters with lurms.
#4. Never shoot into the enemies ecm bubble kill everything around it.
Unless you see his ecm go tango uniform then lurm em real good.
ECM is for pansies.
#5. Fight from the brawl pocket in other words stay with the brawlers.
Stop givin us a bad name - also your backups can contribute to the fight.
#6. Kill the enemy teams lurm boats - counter artillery your team will love you.
#7. Never go full lurm that's just stupid refer to rule #3.
#8. Fire on the slow assaults first you can stay on target longer while they scurry their 52.4 kph butts to cover.
#9. If you see a team mate in trouble send some lurms his way.
The targeted mech's cockpit will be bouncing around and disrupting his aim.
Help a brother out will ya.
#10. Share some damn armor don't hide 700 meters away from the fight with no ammo.
Get yur arse in there and brawl - every point of damage counts.
With these few handy pointers and a little practice you be lurmin like a Boss also.
And remember Rocketeers never beg, but we do announce ourselves.
Trust me.
I'm a Boss.

On a side note and not bragging at all.
With a good team you can truly wreck face and make em cry mommy real hard.

I have a lot of respect for you Novakaine but I have an issue with your screenshot. I know that a hunchie J back in the days could pick mechs apart but 7 kills and 440 damage. There must have been some slightly annoyed people you were stealing kills off of then.

Srry man, just had to point that out. Other than that, the points he makes are gold for any lurmer, words to live by.