215 replies to this topic

[Zordicron]

People, c'mon. You guys are already pissed off about a system we know almost nothing about. It just shows what is going to happen when we see PTS release: people will go, not even look, and then flood the forums and twitter with BS nerd rage rants because onoz, something might change.

I freegin LOATHE the current system of tree+modules. Have to buy 3, doesn;t feel like you can evaluate some of the mechs until you at least get speed tweek, some mechs are balanced almost entirely on the mastered version with a meta loadout so anything else makes them trash tier etc etc.

They might strip all quirks, and the tree. but you know what the easiest thing for them to do would be? Let you unlock all the current quirk values with XP on the new tree. Mech chassis "X" needs ST structure buffs? Hey! What do you know, that particula chassis has those values built in to the tree for it. It will be up to the player to prioritize if they want those quirks "back" right away or pick up something else.

I really get the feeling people here want the new tree to take everything we have now, prebuild it into the mechs, speed tweek and all, and then give us even more skill tree stuff to unlock for that extra helping of power creep.

I am 100% fine with a global nerf to counter 2 years+ of power creep, especially if all I have to do to get the power level "back" is to spend time playing the mech.

The sky isn't falling, and this rage against change for the sake of raging is getting old. Go to PTS with an open mind and help Russ get it right, or never ***** about buying 3 mechs or module costs etc ever again.

[Dino Might]

Please, 100 times no. We need the skill tree to be sidegrades and not direct upgrades. We need commensurate nerfs with each buff for every choice. No more, "I get a flat out better mech in all regards just because I've played longer." I hate that kind of power creep. You should have a stronger mech for your particular application because you gave up on some other capabilities. It should be a choice you need to think about.

Furthermore, these skills should be adjustable between matches - the XP unlocks the skill and you choose whether to apply it or not. You can then respec at will once all the skills you may want to use are unlocked.

That's how it should be. But I know what we'll get - more stupid powerful quirks for those of us who have played this game for too long.

Thinking man's shooter? Nope, no thought in the mech lab - just take every powerup you possibly can. Why bother having to consider the options?

Edited by Dino Might, 22 January 2017 - 02:40 PM.

[Vellron2005]

I hope the skill tree gives us a choice of direct power-ups to mechs in the form of quirks, modules, abilities and makes us choose what we want..

Its logical to me to have to make the choice between firepower and durability, between having special abilities like info-war and having optimizations for certain roles.. and for me, it will be very important to reward both single weapon type builds but also mixed builds..

It would be very unfair if my all-energy or all-balistic mech would be overall better than my mixed build mech..

[Papa Smurf]

I am very unoptimistic about these changes and the skill tress. I have stopped wantingly purchasing items from PGI. Why buy a hero mech when any mech can now be a hero mech. Again PGI has not beta tested this with players and again said take it or leave it. I believe ultimatly that XP will be another form of MC to be purchased.

Edited by Papa Smurf, 23 January 2017 - 05:08 AM.

[Arugela]

When is this finally going to be implemented. I want to deck out my mechs! >< I have big plans for my Direwolf.

Edited by Arugela, 24 January 2017 - 12:08 PM.

[nehebkau]

Well,
It all seems pretty simple to me. If PGI farks this up more people will quit.

As it stands now FW will get even more sparse as the advanced players vs. newer players' mech-skills gap will be wider. New player will get even more penalized for being new and will quit sooner, meaning less new-player retention which directly translates into a higher rate of player number bleed.

But hey! It's PGI -- they will work out all those issues before it is released.

[Qmoney7]

I don't see how they'll be ready to release a skill tree any time soon if they can't even meet their commitment to post answers to FAQ last week.

[lazytopaz]

I think about this skill tree in terms - if built properly will augment your build and playstyle with the mech.
To speak more flatly : if I want to build a tanky mech I'll be able to pick armor and structure buffs + torso twist speed/range bonuses.
If I want to build a skirmisher/brawler I'll take speed buff+weapon cooldowns (to numbers around 30% cd red and 20% move speed).
and so on.
And those choices will be meaningful. To numbers like +20 armor/structure buffs to ct+st, 15 to arms/legs, +5 to head depending on chassis size.
Hopefully no numbers like 5% which as well might've been 0% in most cases.

I wish for it to be as big and complicated as possible. To put another layer of customization and reward for players who can plan their build right/theorycrafters.

Edited by lazytopaz, 26 January 2017 - 06:13 PM.

[Kharonte]

Ok, there goes my opinion and guessins (and apologies for my awful english).

First, I like the change. The 3 mechs rule was really annoying, and specially for a casual player. You had to spend a lot of time playing mechs you didn't like to make playable the one you really liked. So, I'm happy about that. Also, there were some skills you had to learn and, in some cases, were useless for that specific mech (somebody mentioned the torso twist, so I would not repeat that). Now, the skills you get would really improve how the mech works (or it should do so, apart from those "joined skills" which can't be upgraded but getting another you didn't want to).

Second, I think this is another try of PGI to balance the battles (specially PUG matches) between casual/veterans players. As most of the mechs would get reduced their combat efficiency, casual players may find easier to match their enemies. I also take myself as an example, and a reduced number of mechs also means I would need less playing time to get them fully mastered. And, for those who predict a reduction in the number of new players... I think MWO is not gaining new players. Or not enough to be relevant in the comunity. The game, in my opinion, reached its top time ago, and now can't do nothing but hold it. And that's why I expect this change to bring a temporary balance to the casual/veteran forces (because, although some people here said they would give up part of their mechs, I am pretty sure they'll finally bring 'em to the battle to fullfill their skill tree).

Third comes a guess. With the new skill tree, if the IS mechs lose all their quirks and have to "regain" them later, they would get way too weak against the clan mechs. In my opinion, there is a chance of some quirks being assumed as "basic characteristics" of the mech (mainly, the structure bonus), so you wouldn't have to acquire them. I really expect this to happen, just only because that way it would reduce the time needed to fully master the mech (and, if we are lucky, it would balance the gameplay needed to master an IS or a Clan mech). And, for those who are getting mad about their champion mechs... probably those would get a higher SP limit (compared with the other chasis), so you would be able to improve much more their proficiency.

And those are my opinions and guessins. What do you think? Would some of those come true? Would you like them to be true?

[MechaBattler]

I get the feeling Zordicron is right. I'd quote him, but can't at the moment. All the nay sayers will just flood the PTS forum without even trying it. Just like Energy Draw. PGI should lock people out of the PTS forum if they haven't actually tried the PTS. I know that just means people will probably try one match and then flame on. But at least the people who don't want to make the effort will fall away.

One of my concerns with this new Skill System is that they're double hitting us when it comes to respec. You have to pay c-bills to reset skills. Which unless you pay MC, you'll lose those experience nodes. So not only do you have to grind out more c-bills, but you also have to regrind the experience. Or am misinterpreting what they said on Twitter?

My other concern is that mechs with mixed builds will be even more inferior to boating builds. Right now PGI quirks mechs to have bonuses to each weapon type. With this skill system we have to divert skills to each weapon type, taking away from other skills. A boating build can use those points on other improvements.

Also concerned how this will effect balance. Timberwolves with armor and structure bonuses! However, they will have to give up other things, at least that's what they're selling us on. I just hope the PTS goes on for a while so they can tweak the values. I would hate it for only "X and Y" skills to be the only ones worth taking..

[DeeHawk]

MechaBattler, on 30 January 2017 - 11:15 AM, said:

One of my concerns with this new Skill System is that they're double hitting us when it comes to respec. You have to pay c-bills to reset skills. Which unless you pay MC, you'll lose those experience nodes. So not only do you have to grind out more c-bills, but you also have to regrind the experience. Or am misinterpreting what they said on Twitter?
..

A lot of people use this example. My interpretation is that they want to change the way you manage your mechs. Respec only if you regret or want rebuild for real. You want more builds on the same variant? Buy an extra chassis of the same variant and skill them different.

[thievingmagpi]

Dino Might, on 22 January 2017 - 02:39 PM, said:

Please, 100 times no. We need the skill tree to be sidegrades and not direct upgrades. We need commensurate nerfs with each buff for every choice. No more, &quot;I get a flat out better mech in all regards just because I've played longer.&quot; I hate that kind of power creep. You should have a stronger mech for your particular application because you gave up on some other capabilities. It should be a choice you need to think about.

Furthermore, these skills should be adjustable between matches - the XP unlocks the skill and you choose whether to apply it or not. You can then respec at will once all the skills you may want to use are unlocked.

That's how it should be. But I know what we'll get - more stupid powerful quirks for those of us who have played this game for too long.

Thinking man's shooter? Nope, no thought in the mech lab - just take every powerup you possibly can. Why bother having to consider the options?

This x10000

MW is all about mixing and matching, fiddling with builds. It's not about a unilateral creep towards one god tier mech. It should reward experimentation or at least allow/encourage different playstyles and different mech types.


Side grades absolutely.

Maybe some simple xp based upgrades.

But this doesn't seem like a good system at all

[Coolant]

I like originality and skill trees bring that. I prolly won't go for all firepower. Lotro has some of the best skill trees I've seen in a game. Choose a specialty and have more points available but allow skills in other areas at a penalty...mix and match. I think skill trees will be one of the greatest additions to MWO since it began. It will allow players to think outside the box, differentiate between every other player...unless of course you aren't willing to think outside the box and just copy your homework from your classmate - what every site says is best, or what all your unit teammates think.

[Star Rod]

OK so we will be able to upgrade weapon and mech performance aspects individually for each mech in increments... thats great but why the hell is it arranged in this stupid interconnected hex grid???


why is it not just a normal skill progression path like we used to see in rpg games... or at least copy what path of exile does with their skill tree. this here is just a clusterfuk.

if you can't design a clean system please just step down and let an actually competent game designer take over !!!

[Gas Guzzler]

Arugela, on 24 January 2017 - 12:06 PM, said:

I have big plans for my Direwolf.

Oh, you think your Dire Wolf will get any "buffs" from its current state? Oh you poor soul..

I'm not really excited about this system. Kind of wish they would just fix the Pinpoint skill with something like "-5% laser duration, +5% missile/projectile velocity" and call it good.

There is just so much that can be screwed up by this. Not to mention, it will be even harder on newer players, who won't know what skills are actually useful, because you KNOW that some sklils will be vastly superior to others, that is a given.

[Karl Streiger]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 February 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

There is just so much that can be screwed up by this. Not to mention, it will be even harder on newer players, who won't know what skills are actually useful, because you KNOW that some sklils will be vastly superior to others, that is a given.

this is the issue when stuff becomes better. I really hope that they already realized that "Skill" Tree can be a balance breaker because they have toned down the marign of the old "skill table" several times.

To make it clear it will be pure horror. Because in the end you will match - maxed out top tier chassis with "new" ones.
Heck it might even stop any "new mech packs" in its track same for new players because they not only have no clue but also are "months" away to get there.

It is really important that the new skill tree is about choices about flavour and play style.
Choose one and you are denied to take the others - or any advantage comes for a price of a disadvantage.
So in the end you can end were you started but investing "billions" of XP.

For example - twist range comes at the price of twist speed - when you increase your twist speed you suffer twist range (so you spend two LPs but doesn't have any different mech - (this is a plain example but you should get it)

[Errinovar]

Dino Might, on 22 January 2017 - 02:39 PM, said:

Please, 100 times no. We need the skill tree to be sidegrades and not direct upgrades. We need commensurate nerfs with each buff for every choice. No more, "I get a flat out better mech in all regards just because I've played longer." I hate that kind of power creep. You should have a stronger mech for your particular application because you gave up on some other capabilities. It should be a choice you need to think about.

I agree with this in some respects, but in others I think it fails a large number of mechs because they are already disadvantaged by design. One of the biggest sources of imbalance has to do with hardpoints and their mount locations. A high mounted torso weapon is generally superior in all respects to a lower mounted torso weapon, which is superior to nearly all arm mounted weapons and then you have hitboxes and those advantages are how we got into the perks in the first place and why they are ultimately needed. I'm hopeful that this skill system will take into account how disadvantaged certain mechs are and give them better access to skills so a pilot doesn't have to choose between playing a mech they like and having to play 3 times harder just to be half as effective vs playing the meta designs.

Personally I think this new skill tree, so much as has been shown at this point, is a horrible deal for anyone that bought any of the older non-meta chassis, like the Centurions, and for most IS mech pilots. I think clans are going to love it.

[Dino Might]

The best pure upgrade skilltree I have seen in a game is from Path of Exile. There are limited points on a max level build, so you have to pick and choose.

I think this is what they are going for, but I fear that the options are going to be relatively limited, and the available upgrades too many, so that it will inevitably be a shopping spree for those of us with enough XP and Cbills.

Simply put, I want reasons to choose NOT to get a particular skill.

I also worry that the skills will, like the current system in place, create too big a difference in mech performance vs an unskilled mech, and so we continue to punish new players disproportionately. That's not good for the health of an online game.

The best I can be at this point is skeptical. We really need to push them towards a sidegrade rather than an upgrade mentality.

Edited by Dino Might, 03 February 2017 - 08:55 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Dino Might, on 22 January 2017 - 02:39 PM, said:

Thinking man's shooter? Nope, no thought in the mech lab - just take every powerup you possibly can. Why bother having to consider the options?

The better mechs are likely going to have to trade off between mobility/firepower/durability, but (hopefully, otherwise you can forget about balance) the poor mechs should be able to stack the necessary skills to help them.

Thinking man's shooter, yeah there is a lot of that in actual gameplay if you want to be good.

Dino Might, on 03 February 2017 - 08:54 AM, said:

The best pure upgrade skilltree I have seen in a game is from Path of Exile. There are limited points on a max level build, so you have to pick and choose.

I think this is what they are going for, but I fear that the options are going to be relatively limited, and the available upgrades too many, so that it will inevitably be a shopping spree for those of us with enough XP and Cbills.

I think that is definitely going to be an issue for mechs that are very good (see KDK-3), but I have a feeling the choices for the less optimal mechs will be pretty obvious because they will have a lot more skills to use.

[Stikyard]

I just love the silence from PGI on this huge change...

We won't truely know how good or bad it will be until we sit down and start spending xp.

We are already seeing the Meta with inflated hard points. Now will we see Meta inflated hard points AND optimal quirks? YIKES!!!