215 replies to this topic

[AnTi90d]

Bulletsponge0, on 04 December 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

thats not true from what I see...

I mean, unless you plan on fully unlocking skill for weapons that you never plan on putting on a mech....

My rebuttal to this post is eight or so posts above this.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Appogee, on 04 December 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

Won't need to buy them, in the first place.

Let's see what that does to their cashflow.

Probably will make it more affordable for players to play the mechs they want to, and they aren't bumping into commitment walls that actually distastefully corner them to spend money. You know how you get people to spend money? Make them want to. Don't force them to.

It'll be nice so we don't have this conversation anymore:
New: "Okay I bought my first mech, and got all the basic skills. Why can't I get all these other cool bonuses?"
Vet: "Oh, buy more two mechs you're never going to use, grind those out painfully, spend a **** ton in making them viable so you can get XP to get them over the tier, so you can upgrade the mech you like."
New: "wow, what. the. ****?"
Vet: "Yeah I know."
New: "I'm not going to do that, that's crazy. I guess I'll be gimped for life then. holy ****."
Vet: "Or you can grind out with the mech you have now, and spend MC to unlock the other two mech's skills."
New: "What do you mean, I still have to buy two mechs I don't want?"
Vet: "Yeah, but you still play the mech you like, then convert the XP over to GXP. Then you can use GXP to unlock the skills on the mechs you don't use. GXP is "global" XP. Once you convert the XP from one mech into GXP, you can use it on any mech."
New: "I can't just use the XP I earn on this mech on the other mechs?"
Vet: "No, you can't. You can only use the XP you earned on that variant, for that variant."
New: "Wow. ok... what's MC and how do I convert XP"
Vet: "MC is Mech Credits, the in-game currency you pay for, and you need MC to convert XP into GXP. Then you use GXP to level up the other two mechs without playing them."
New: "I need to spend real money on mechs I'm never going to use?"
Vet: "Yep."
New: "How much is that going to be?"
Vet: "It's 50MC to convert 1 XP into 1 GXP. And you'll need about 21,500 gxp per mech to be able to unlock the Elite skills on your primary mech."
New: "So to convert 43,000xp into GXP, is 860mc. How much does MC cost?"
Vet: "You can buy 1,250mc for $7 USD."
New: "Ugh wow. And then I have to grind out more XP to finally unlock the skills on my primary mech."
Vet: "Yeah."
New: "So after I unlock the skills on the two other mechs, what do I do with them after?"
Vet: "You can sell them."
New: "So I spend $7 on mechs that I'm never actually going to play, just to make the mech I play better."
Vet: "Yeah, and if you sell those two mechs, you only get 50% of the c-bills back."
New: "... are freaking you serious? That would have been nice to know before I spent all my c-bills on them. This is such bull ****."

It's complicated, not user-friendly. It feels underhanded, chintzy, cash-grabby.
I've had many a friends instantly turn from "This is pretty cool!" to "This is ******* stupid" after conversations like that. Once they realize they're cornered into either spending money, or signing their life away to extensive grinds, they have had no problem letting their interest fade away after one or two more matches.

Even though the gameplay itself is fun enough to keep doing for a while, the unrealistic progression curve is less than attractive for most people who want to pick up the game and require that sense of accomplishment to sustain their interest.

I'm glad I HOPE they're going to change it.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 04 December 2016 - 04:52 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Having to pay to reset skills is dumpster fire level BS.

xXBagheeraXx, on 04 December 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:

So wait, Basically I can build my own quirks?????




I like the basic idea of this, and the level of customization it now allows since you can spec to exactly what that mech is packing, The amount of XP required tho is a bit much......

And when you decide that you want to run a different build? You have to pay to change the quirks.

[Dee Eight]

Ohhhh dooommm....sky is falling....salt rains everywhere.

People watching the live stream and chat were clearly made up of a lot less forum complainers as I was and I saw nothing but positive reactions to the fact we now each, individually get to decide how to skill out each mech we own, for whatever build we wish to use on it. Everyone doom and gloom are going "oh well it'll mean more boating", and yes maybe on some mechs, like grasshoppers and banshees with nothing but energy hardpoints. But also for mechs where you have one ballistic hardpoint, you're no longer stuck into one particular optimal ballistic type because of its built-in quirks. We also do not as yet know what skill tree options will be unlocked for each mech, other than from limited screen caps they streamed in the presentation. We do get clues though...like that griffin...which has STREAK skills showing... but not a particular size launcher. Likewise the Hellbringer shown has autocannon quirks or UAC quirks, but again, not restricted to a particular size/rating of such guns. So that means all those individual weapon modules & skill point unlocks for them.... refunded and now its more general weapon class skills replacing them. This also means, that PGI might still be free to add particular broad weapon family quirks back to the mechs later... or maybe they'll even do that before hand.

We won't know for two or three months until the patch that its implemented in arrives. I'm sure they're still working out the logistics of how to convert individual module ownerships to c-bills and XP. I for one am not going to sell any of my modules I own now for half the value I'll get out of them when they do the conversions next spring.

[Gas Guzzler]

Dee Eight, on 04 December 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

Ohhhh dooommm....sky is falling....salt rains everywhere.

People watching the live stream and chat were clearly made up of a lot less forum complainers as I was and I saw nothing but positive reactions to the fact we now each, individually get to decide how to skill out each mech we own, for whatever build we wish to use on it. Everyone doom and gloom are going "oh well it'll mean more boating", and yes maybe on some mechs, like grasshoppers and banshees with nothing but energy hardpoints. But also for mechs where you have one ballistic hardpoint, you're no longer stuck into one particular optimal ballistic type because of its built-in quirks. We also do not as yet know what skill tree options will be unlocked for each mech, other than from limited screen caps they streamed in the presentation. We do get clues though...like that griffin...which has STREAK skills showing... but not a particular size launcher. Likewise the Hellbringer shown has autocannon quirks or UAC quirks, but again, not restricted to a particular size/rating of such guns. So that means all those individual weapon modules & skill point unlocks for them.... refunded and now its more general weapon class skills replacing them. This also means, that PGI might still be free to add particular broad weapon family quirks back to the mechs later... or maybe they'll even do that before hand.

We won't know for two or three months until the patch that its implemented in arrives. I'm sure they're still working out the logistics of how to convert individual module ownerships to c-bills and XP. I for one am not going to sell any of my modules I own now for half the value I'll get out of them when they do the conversions next spring.

Ohhhhh you aren't thinking it through.

If there is a hefty fee everytime you want to re-spec your skills because you changed weapons, that is BAD.

I was honestly excited when I saw the skill tree, but the more I think about it, the more I worry... a lot could go wrong.

[oldradagast]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 December 2016 - 05:44 PM, said:

Ohhhhh you aren't thinking it through.

If there is a hefty fee everytime you want to re-spec your skills because you changed weapons, that is BAD.

I was honestly excited when I saw the skill tree, but the more I think about it, the more I worry... a lot could go wrong.

And if all mechs use basically the same skill tree, there is literally no reason any longer to play anything but the most meta-mechs available based on hardpoints and hitboxes.

The odds of this change going right based on what we've seen so far (and PGI's track record) is negligible, IMHO.

[Clownwarlord]

OK ...

What are my thoughts on this new skill tree? Well in truth I have no idea. There literally is just not enough information about it. It would be nice if PGI made some briefs or short videos over the change and how it will work.

Will this be a good thing for MWO? Maybe I think it has a chance to work and work well. I do have some questions such as what if I want to change how I have allocated these SP tickets which I heard I can only place 50 per mech. I also heard an SP ticket cost 10k xp or gxp so now it costs 50k xp or gxp or mix there of, is this correct?

What are some of thes "tables" with skills that we will see? Will they be different set of tables depending on the mech, on the mech chassis, or some other differentiating way? Or will the tables be available for every mech?

I could continue but as you see I just keep getting questions. So I do hope PGI takes some time and slowly releases so briefs on the changes so when the new skill tree gets put in people will already have an idea of what they want to do. Otherwise the community will be spending that following week in the mech lab or skill area trying to figure out how to "master" or "re-master" or whatever it will be called when they go to apply these skills to their mechs.

[Mawai]

Actually, in my opinion, you should NEVER be able to "master" a mech in terms of taking every possible skill bonus. It should be a skill tree where you are allowed to choose a certain number of the available choices.

This would mean that you might have to choose between upgraded armor OR upgraded structure. Improved agility or improved speed or improved twisting capability. (these are just examples). Or ... if each skill has multiple levels you could select low levels of several skills or choose to specialize and earn higher levels of one or two skills.

Getting rid of modules and having an immense skill tree for each mech where you just grind to earn it all is simply a waste and poor game design. Look at skill trees in World of Warcraft or skills from EVE online. In EVE, the effect of the skill gain is LINEAR while the XP cost is exponential ... this means that it is easy to get the lower levels of several skills but it takes much longer and more XP to earn the highest levels of the same skills but these incremental Improvements don't make the character that much more capable than someone with level 3 of a given skill.

I don't know ... I will wait and see what PGI comes up with ... but the screen shots that started this thread just seem to show a remarkable lack of design and imagination that won't serve to inspire people to play more. MWO has needed a decent skill tree since closed beta but honestly, the template presented here, doesn't look like one that will accomplish what they are setting out to do.

[Cy Mitchell]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 December 2016 - 05:44 PM, said:

Ohhhhh you aren't thinking it through.

If there is a hefty fee everytime you want to re-spec your skills because you changed weapons, that is BAD.

I was honestly excited when I saw the skill tree, but the more I think about it, the more I worry... a lot could go wrong.

They have not yet said that it will cost us to respec. They just said we can do it.

As far as Clan vs IS balance, there is a separate for each Mech. The number of available skill points will also vary. A Clan Mech that had no quirks before may only get 13 skill points to modify to get it to where it is now with our present skill tree. An IS Mech that is currently loaded up with a $hitload of quirks may get the full 75 skill points.

The Skill Tree is going to go on the PTS next month. Then we can see how it works and give feedback. Right now, this is nothing more than useless speculation and voicing concerns over things that may not be a concern at all.

[Jman5]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 December 2016 - 05:12 PM, said:

Having to pay to reset skills is dumpster fire level BS.

And when you decide that you want to run a different build? You have to pay to change the quirks.

This is the most important issue that I see so far. Nothing kills build diversity and experimentation more than penalizing respec.

I just want to be clear, this isn't about me being stingy. I have a bajillion cbills, gxp, etc, so I'll eat absurd costs all day in order to play around with different options. This is about the 99% of the community that has to save up every time they want to buy a new mech or module. Respecing needs to be as painless as possible so people aren't afraid to make mistakes, or try new builds, or just do goofy stuff from time to time.

Most people are smart. If respecing costs are rough, why blow their budget trying a bunch of different combinations when they could just copy/paste what some comp player on the internet thinks is best? This kills diversity and experimentation.

If I pay to unlock 20 skills on my hunchback 4SP, I should be able to respec into 20 different ones if I change my mind. Then if I want to go back, I should be able to do that. The cost should only come in initially acquiring the raw skill points.

ENCOURAGE BUILD DIVERSITY BY NOT PUNISHING EXPERIMENTATION!

[Khobai]

why is enhanced narc in the armor tree

it doesnt make any sense

[Motroid]

Hoping that:
Every variant gets its individual unique set of "skill-nodes" based on that specific variants hardpoints and geometry.
Clan Skill trees have less available "SP" than IS mechs and/or "skill-nodes" that are weaker than their IS counterparts.
Re-specing is not monetized with MC.
The grind is not magnified by the factor of 10... (60k to 750k like some have said)

Judging from the ever lasting inability to save loadouts for certain variants in MW:O I tend to believe PGI will try to encourage the players to grind for duplicates of their favorite variants if they want to run more than one loadout. If that is the case re-specing will be penalized hard in one way or the other. I just hope not with MC.
Overall grind will most likely be increased for a single variant since they lift the 3 mechs to master barrier and will have to compensate for this. I just hope not from 60k to 750k.

[SirSlaughter]

AnTi90d, on 03 December 2016 - 09:23 PM, said:

So.. now it will take..

3.5 MILLION experience points

..to master each mech.

..the grind is real..

Not a big issue I have at least 5.000.000 on each centurion

[NoiseCrypt]

SirSlaughter, on 05 December 2016 - 03:24 AM, said:

Not a big issue I have at least 5.000.000 on each centurion

Awesome. You and the 20 other players with that amount of xp will have tons of fun then

[oldradagast]

Rampage, on 04 December 2016 - 08:57 PM, said:

They have not yet said that it will cost us to respec. They just said we can do it.

As far as Clan vs IS balance, there is a separate for each Mech. The number of available skill points will also vary. A Clan Mech that had no quirks before may only get 13 skill points to modify to get it to where it is now with our present skill tree. An IS Mech that is currently loaded up with a $hitload of quirks may get the full 75 skill points.

The Skill Tree is going to go on the PTS next month. Then we can see how it works and give feedback. Right now, this is nothing more than useless speculation and voicing concerns over things that may not be a concern at all.

So, what you're saying is that I can waste my time grinding out the quirks my sub-par mechs currently have freely, or I can instead just dump my inflated-away XP from my current mechs into a handful of meta-mechs (based on hardpoints and hitboxes) and join the same boring meta as everyone else post rollout based on what we've currently seen?

Yeah, sounds like fun... not.

As for "useless" speculation, are you new around here, or have you forgotten the uproar the community needed to produce to prevent all sorts of idiocy from going live from PGI? Ghost-range on lasers, blind mechs in info-warfare, whatever their joke of an ED system was, etc. Geez...

Edited by oldradagast, 05 December 2016 - 04:14 AM.

[NextGame]

AnTi90d, on 03 December 2016 - 09:23 PM, said:

So.. now it will take..

3.5 MILLION experience points

..to master each mech.


..the grind is real..

lol, ******* WHAT?!

[jjm1]

RIP really good hard-point quirks idea.

If each variants skill tree is different then isn't this just quirks under a different name. Grind-quirks.

Glad they got rid of modules so I don't have to go hunting for them when I change mechs. Now I just have to grind them onto a specific mech by the looks of it

And if I have mechs without radar dep that is going to make me really angry. Dep is the one reason I kept playing despite the excessive number of lurm boats belting out speed quirked lurms like a heat seeking AC-40.

[Chados]

Looks like I'm going to have to pick One Mech to Rule Them All and stick with it from patch time on, and shelve everything else.

If you all think the heavy queue for QP is full now you ain't seen nothing yet. The 60-75 ton bracket is really going to be the best of all worlds even more than it now is. Though with the jump jet tree, I forecast that we actually may see the Victor and Highlander making a comeback to some extent. It's going to be a very different MWO when this hits. The paradigm will be totally different. But it's going to really put the Mickey on PGI's mechpack efforts. Who wants to buy a mechpack and start from scratch when you can keep calm and master your favorite to über level? Your mech will really be much like your player character in World of Warcraft.

I have a hunch that I'm going to be back in Catapults again. It's looking like one perhaps can choose to armor mechs up and focus weapon upgrades (i.e. Jester's old LL quirks), which means that I can protect that XL engine or make a standard engine worth having-a Cat C1 with supercooldown and spread adjustment for ALRM15s and the equivalent of ER green lasers would be pretty darn handy in the LRM skirmishing game. Min-maxing is going to be a whole new science. You're not going to be allowed to tick every box-if you run the autocannon tree for your Carebear you'll have a glass cannon because you'll hit the skill point cap for that mech and forego most of the armor and structure buffs, and you won't have raderp because you can't drill far enough down in the infowar tree. That happens in WoW often and frequently.

[Cy Mitchell]

oldradagast, on 05 December 2016 - 04:14 AM, said:

So, what you're saying is that I can waste my time grinding out the quirks my sub-par mechs currently have freely, or I can instead just dump my inflated-away XP from my current mechs into a handful of meta-mechs (based on hardpoints and hitboxes) and join the same boring meta as everyone else post rollout based on what we've currently seen?

Yeah, sounds like fun... not.

As for "useless" speculation, are you new around here, or have you forgotten the uproar the community needed to produce to prevent all sorts of idiocy from going live from PGI? Ghost-range on lasers, blind mechs in info-warfare, whatever their joke of an ED system was, etc. Geez...

It is entirely possible that "sub par" Mechs will get a bunch of free skill points to use before you start paying. It is also possible that investing a skill point on a "Sub par" Mech will get you a lot more benefit than investing a point on something like a Kodiak.

We have almost no information on this system. People are just making stuff up based on a few screen shots that may or may not be accurate at all. Yeah, IMO all this wailing, gnashing of teeth and pulling of hair is pretty pointless until we have some facts.

Me new? Hardly. I did take a break during some of the fun times but I was here for closed Beta. And as far as stopping PGI from doing bad thing, I spent quite a bit of time on the PTS servers and gave feedback on power draw unlike a lot of people who made multiple post about how bad it was but openly admitted that they never even bothered to test it once. They were just convinced it was bad because. It is amazing how many people complain that the game is stagnant and not progressing but are critical of virtually every change that PGI proposes.

When the skill tree goes live on PTS then I will be there to test and see how it works. After that, I will form an opinion of whether it is good or bad for the game. I wonder how many other people that have posted in this thread will bother to do the same?

[Chados]

Here's another issue. If they really are dedicated to this skill tree idea they're going to have to drop FW dropdecks. Or you'll be rolling with one mastered mech and three unskilled ones unless you have billions of XP saved up to convert already. That'll make FP even less fun than it already is.

I frankly think they ought to merge the QP and FW sides of the game, as we saw in Multiplayer Online Battletech years ago. It wouldn't be too hard to do this and not destroy the QP game. In MPBT every drop was an FW drop. You were running with your faction, and you only had the one mech to drop in (for me, nearly always a Rifleman once I became eligible to run heavy mechs). That would keep the solo QP queue just like it is-only difference is the fight would be happening wherever the battle lines happened to be that day. Action on the planet therefore could be perhaps everyone v. everyone free for all in skittle mode, or factional playing team v team. You'd need group queue and solo queue for this and both would affect the map of the Inner Sphere-you'd have skittle war moderated by the matchmaker and group war with no matchmaker happening on the same planet, with the attack lanes being selected by loyalists in the house or individual clan vote like is now done.

The problem is that we are fast heading to a WoW PvP situation where the PvP is all Alliance v. Horde all day every day, and PGI won't overcome the basic Clan v. IS basic tech imbalance problem with the move to the skill tree. It takes too long to skill up a four-mech dropdeck. Or any mech from zero to mastery. The only real way for them to equalize is to advance timeline to 3057 and release the LFE, RACs, snubnose PPCs, and all the rest of the IS tech upgrades following discovery of the Helm Memory Core. And they will not do that. God knows why.