211 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

Lily from animove, on 15 December 2016 - 04:36 AM, said:

The KDK is the scapegoat excuse and deletign ti will make them just find another. before the KDK we had a similar QQ form the IS, so why do you think woul it stop by basically just taking the KDK out again?

For the same reason clan QQing about the Black Knight and Oxide and Black Jack stopped when they were beaten down. Because those mechs were OP relative to those around them. Trash a mech to the point where it is no longer played and it is amazing how complaints on the other side evaporate. The KDK is not a scape goat. It is objectively and by the numbers the best mech in the game. That reality is the problem, not "attitude".

[Karl Streiger]

Lily from animove, on 15 December 2016 - 04:36 AM, said:

The KDK is the scapegoat excuse and deletign ti will make them just find another. before the KDK we had a similar QQ form the IS, so why do you think woul it stop by basically just taking the KDK out again?

Stalker, WubVerine, DakaDragon, LPL Thunderbolth, ERPPC Tunderbolt.....with exception of the Stalker those Mechs are crap without those uberquirks.

You can say its not the KDK its not the Cheetah all day, but the issue remain that there are some Mechs in this game that are simple the best. They don't have any drawbacks but some artificial negative quirks.

Usually, a good Mech is the mix of mobility, armor and firepower, range - I don't think that any IS Mech can get more than two of those points

• Atlas - superb firepower (below 150m) good armor (huge target) - so 1/1/2
  
• Mauler range and dps but armor and speed?
  
• Banshee - firepower and speed when you sacrifice armor (running with XL)

Thats why we had those uberquirks were Mechs with 2 weapons did behave like they run with 3. So they had some firepower without sacrificing speed and armor

Edited by Karl Streiger, 15 December 2016 - 04:48 AM.

[Baulven]

Bud Crue, on 15 December 2016 - 03:03 AM, said:

The problem is not "overall" imbalance. The problem is one of outliers.

To answer the thread title:

The easiest way: Get rid of or substantively nerf the performance of the Kodiak, particularly the Kodiak 3, and the Arctic Cheetah. The IS has no answer to either, particularly the former. The closest mechs the IS has to their Clan counters is the Mauler and the Firestarter. One is so slow that it will be destroyed as soon as it is out of cover, and even with as small an engine as is practicable it still cannot mount equivalent firepower in terms of damage potential or hard point height; the other is visually twice the size of its counter part and may as well be moving in slow motion, it is that much easier to hit. Don't believe me. Go into a private match and test it. At least the IS now has a Spider that comes a bit closer to the Cheetah in performance and maneuverability but still a very different mech (buffed MGs are NOT equivalent to cspl).

I for one am sick of this debate, and this weekend will play CW for as long as I can stomach it. The fact that PGI and some players refuse to see this obvious, data driven, there is nothing subjective about this, REALITY not withstanding; I will play. Alas, new players and anyone with even a hint of ability at making comparative analysis can see it too, and thus they are not playing because of it Well, no shi7.

Jesus ******* tap dancing Christ on a stick Bud please stop calling to nerfs the entire chassis. The under performers really don't need a second round of nerfs for the sins of the three. Just like Jenners didn't deserve the nerfs they got because of the oxides tankiness.

[Bud Crue]

Baulven, on 15 December 2016 - 04:47 AM, said:

Jesus ******* tap dancing Christ on a stick Bud please stop calling to nerfs the entire chassis. The under performers really don't need a second round of nerfs for the sins of the three. Just like Jenners didn't deserve the nerfs they got because of the oxides tankiness.

My apologies. When I responded above I called out the Kodiak-3. That is what I meant. Moreover, my "solution" is intended as merely "the easiest" solution I could think of. It isn't going to happen though.

wait...I just looked at what you quoted...I did call out the KDK-3 in that post. So now I am confused.

Edited by Bud Crue, 15 December 2016 - 04:54 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Bud Crue, on 15 December 2016 - 04:49 AM, said:

My apologies. When I responded above I called out the Kodiak-3. That is what I meant. Moreover, my "solution" is inended as merely "the easiest" solution I could think of. It isn't going to happen though.

problem is were DakaDaragon and else just needed a 50% - 20% quirk pass. What to do with the KDK3- give him a MINUS 20% DAKA QUIRK?

I really would want to see the Cerberus vs the Kodiak....I think the KDK3 will still win, because the Cerb is either slow as hell running a STD or a glass cannon with XL- and when you would see the Cerb with 4 AC10 you know the deal.
Glass Cannon won't even work well enough (need to drop ES - and still don't get the Speed of the KDK3)
So its 275-285 Engine
slower or as fast as a stock Atlas, 5-6t ammunition, 80-85% armor. Issue is you can't have shield arms -you need to uparmor everything on this Mech.

So its maybe really not the KDK but the XL again....old story.

MRMs could become a game changer - turning Mechs like the Temperst in Mid Range heavy hitter with ECM cover

IS NEED MOAR Missiles - not those double weight LRMs, or SRMs, give IS MRMs.
Pitty the Atlas can only have 60

Edited by Karl Streiger, 15 December 2016 - 05:06 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Karl Streiger, on 15 December 2016 - 04:52 AM, said:

What to do with the KDK3- give him a MINUS 20% DAKA QUIRK?

And therein lies the problem. The Kodiak-3 is perfect. It has the best combination of all ideal features in this game. And that is why it is "OP". Unless they rebuild it to have worse hard points or change the rules of the XL engine differences, etc. negative quirks are the only thing that would make a difference; and I don't think PGI is going to do that. And frankly I am not sure that they should.

I'm no game designer. The question of the thread was asked and that is my answer, but I'll be damned if I see a more palatable solution to PGI and the players (see Mech the Dane's latest video for his solution*...
I don't think it is any more likely to be instituted, but folks are at least thinking about this stuff beyond the oh so helpful "its cuz clan players are better, git gud IS scrub" and that to me is a good thing).

Edit: *link
https://mwomercs.com...t-is-a-problem/

Edited by Bud Crue, 15 December 2016 - 05:04 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Cabusha3, on 14 December 2016 - 06:45 PM, said:

Yup, the top tier players DON'T want to fight each other. They prefer to farm pugs, so they all join the same side. They've been doing this for all of faction warfare.

Not much more to say really.

Lol, cant possibly be to do with units wanting to be on the side with the recently released new toy.. Must be that they all want to do boring pug stomps. Yep. everyone likes tedious races to get some damage on the board before all the skittles fall over.

[rolly]

Frankly if they're going to stick with this IS vs Clan bucket system, they need to differentiate the fighting styles of both forces.
The only way the IS beat back and won against the clans is by doing guerrilla warfare/combined arms tactics and strategies that negated the clan tech advantage.

Homogenizing Clan and IS doesn't fully solve this disparity. Would doubling the number of Consumables possibly help? We're not likely going to get tanks, arty, mines, or infantry to help any time soon.

[sycocys]

They still haven't introduced mechanics that force teams to split into lance vs lance combat?

[Karl Streiger]

sycocys, on 15 December 2016 - 06:46 AM, said:

They still haven't introduced mechanics that force teams to split into lance vs lance combat?

they have - this was the motivation behind the Long Tom

[sycocys]

Karl Streiger, on 15 December 2016 - 06:49 AM, said:

they have - this was the motivation behind the Long Tom

As far as I could tell that didn't do anything at all other than spread out the deathballing a bit, and worse that it wasn't contained within the back and forth of individual matches.

Kind of silly that they never added objectives inside of the 12v12 matches that actually forced teams to split out from the deathball mindset completely for at least 1-2 of the 4 waves. CW/FW should be basically campaign modes from the prior games but pvp instead of playing against bots.

[Davers]

darqsyde, on 14 December 2016 - 10:54 PM, said:

Simple suggestion...force Stock Mech Mode for FW.

This isn't the "what can be done to make bad Clan players think they are great" thread. That's not a good suggestion for the current topic.

[Karl Streiger]

Davers, on 15 December 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

This isn't the "what can be done to make bad Clan players think they are great" thread. That's not a good suggestion for the current topic.

why they are forced to ride Summoner Prime and Gargoyle Primes either

After scrolling through some topics - I think the best we can do to keep the IS player playing FW is to go to the Clans and play as IS Scrub for the Clans..... look their are begging us to do it.

My Clan Drop Deck is ready:
Gargoyle Prime, Ebon Jaguar LRM version, Ice Ferret and Mist Lynx - are ready to go

Edited by Karl Streiger, 15 December 2016 - 07:16 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

627, on 14 December 2016 - 11:41 PM, said:

Well, why don't we just lower the tonnage for clans? Like 200 tons?

At least this can be done on the fly.

Maybe IS should go back to 250, too. Or we'll have all the whine because the cheetahs killed the fatties.

iie, that would hurt the Clan puggers in general. Besides outlier tech differences (cXL vs isXL, no isUAC10) and IS vast number of general purpose, lower tier mechs that would benefit as they are brought into FP. No way for PGI to restrict actual mech usage or number of mech variant brought.

Many players, pugs, do not read the forums or read very little of it. And units going Clan, and rightly assuming most would go Clan to play with their new toys, and when they do they load up for seal, unit-wise, bringing AK-47/M60/etc instead of 9mm/clubs/spears/etc. Did those units really expect to meet an equal amount of vet/reg IS units? Never mind, I have answered me own question. Of course not, simply go all balls out and get out of it what you can while you can, cause it will no last long, just like the previous versions, simply a snake eating its own tail...

[Master Pain]

RestosIII, on 14 December 2016 - 10:19 PM, said:

Get rid of Master Pain.

I hope you plan on PGI reimbursing everyone that ever bought a Clan mech, dekkle, or warhorn. Otherwise, you're just making a hyperbolic statement that has no use outside of being salty for saltiness' sake.

there is no salt in my statement. i have never liked the clans much, so i have no interest in playing cw. i dont actually expect or think they will remove the clans. there are a lot of people that like them. its just a statement of fact for me. the only cw that i have had fun playing has been IS vs IS. i guess basically there is nothing realistic that would interest me in cw.

Also, i dont think they will ever get the balance right between IS and clans either.

[Novakaine]

Meh.
Let the clans fight themselves.
We'll see how well that works.

[Lily from animove]

Bud Crue, on 15 December 2016 - 04:44 AM, said:

For the same reason clan QQing about the Black Knight and Oxide and Black Jack stopped when they were beaten down. Because those mechs were OP relative to those around them. Trash a mech to the point where it is no longer played and it is amazing how complaints on the other side evaporate. The KDK is not a scape goat. It is objectively and by the numbers the best mech in the game. That reality is the problem, not "attitude".

the majority of matches yesterday were not decided by the KDK, therefore the KDK is the scapegoat in this case. It is an excuse for the IS saying "balance is broken". but thats not true. The yesterdays chassis dominating were all the shiny new marauders.

Poeple currently and before the KDK claimed clams OP, now they claim clans OP because KDK. the KDK may be op, but the claim of it beign the cause for FW imbalnce is not true because those cliams existed before it and exist now when the KDK is hardly played. Thats why it is an excuse, because the reality is that the current games are not decidd by the KDK.

[Bud Crue]

Lily from animove, on 15 December 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

the majority of matches yesterday were not decided by the KDK, therefore the KDK is the scapegoat in this case. It is an excuse for the IS saying "balance is broken". but thats not true. The yesterdays chassis dominating were all the shiny new marauders.

Poeple currently and before the KDK claimed clams OP, now they claim clans OP because KDK. the KDK may be op, but the claim of it beign the cause for FW imbalnce is not true because those cliams existed before it and exist now when the KDK is hardly played. Thats why it is an excuse, because the reality is that the current games are not decidd by the KDK.

You misunderstand either my answer above or the question of the thread. You can call it "an excuse", a "cop out" or what have you. The fact that the MAD-iiC is also dominating does not change the fact that the KDK-3 is the best mech in the game and that fact is what is keeping a lot of folks on the IS side from playing. Add in the ACH, relative to ALL other lights, and even the Hunch-IIc relative to other mediums, and it is pretty clear that the IS is at a disadvantage. That clarity is what is keeping IS folks from wanting to play the mode. You want to add in the currently dominating MAD-IIc to that analysis? Fine. It makes the problem of imbalance even more obvious and pronounced.

The question of the thread is "What can be don to keep the IS playing FW". That is in effect asking what is driving IS players from the mode? I believe it is the clear imbalance at the extremes of the weight classes. You want to throw in the MAD-IIC into that analysis as well? That's cool. Maybe it isn't just at the extremes? OK. If the data shows that the MAD-IIc is OP relative to other mechs similarly situated, then that merely reflects the reality of the imbalance I am pointing to. Namely, the awareness and assumption that you are automatically at a disadvantage because off those disparities between the best mechs and what you, the IS player, can bring: by definition something that is not the best. That awareness is off-putting to a lot of IS players, and thus is acting to discourage them from playing. I don't know what the data is going to show regarding the MAD-IIC but if it is ALSO OP (relative to other similarly situated mechs) as the KDK-3 and ACH undoubtedly are, that is not a "cope out" or an "excuse"; rather, it is just more proof of the problem.

[Lily from animove]

Bud Crue, on 15 December 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

You misunderstand either my answer above or the question of the thread. You can call it "an excuse", a "cop out" or what have you. The fact that the MAD-iiC is also dominating does not change the fact that the KDK-3 is the best mech in the game and that fact is what is keeping a lot of folks on the IS side from playing. Add in the ACH, relative to ALL other lights, and even the Hunch-IIc relative to other mediums, and it is pretty clear that the IS is at a disadvantage. That clarity is what is keeping IS folks from wanting to play the mode.

So the mechs that currently aren't used keep the IS out of FW? now THAT is amazing logic.

also, when the ACH is so strong shouldn't it be an omnipresent sight in scouting, which it clearly is not? or how many ACH's were used in the tournament?

Edited by Lily from animove, 15 December 2016 - 09:19 AM.

[Novakaine]

And Kodiaks, Skilless Crows and Artic Cheaters.
Oh and let's not forget Summoners and Hunchie IIc's.
Get real man it ain't about balance.
It's about parity.
And right now IS tech only have parity with..........pears.