391 replies to this topic

[kilgor]

I still say that UACs need to be used primarily as an AC with better range and you only double tap as a finisher. So, yes, if you double tap and it jams, it should be out for the rest of the match. That's always been the intention of UACs in Battletech, not always double fire and it's even worse because IS only has one UAC while Clan have all UAC models.

Another thing I would suggest is eliminate ghost drops. If there's no one opposing you on the other side, you can't take a planet. This would encourage people to go onto both sides.

[Dex Spero]

MischiefSC, on 16 December 2016 - 02:16 AM, said:

10v12 isn't somehow easier to balance than 12v12.

People are pretty deadset against the 10v12 idea and its been mentioned that PGI has already rejected it. Have teams tried it in private matches? I'd be interested to hear about actual 10v12 experiences and why it doesn't work rather then theories or PGI's opinion (not that the theories aren't insightful... but we all know sometimes reality can surprise you).

[Grixa19]

CK16, on 15 December 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

It is no secert that IS has a huge edge with PPFD alphas anyone that says clans win this need to go against most laser vomit IS chassis....like the guy above me said, having your torso's alphas off before you even know your hit is annoying as hell. Seriously anyone that says oh go torso twist needs to go see that it is humanly impossible against some IS chassis to twit off the damage, burn times are that quick and when your rocking a 50+ alpha that has ranges of up to 500m it doesn't take much to wreck alot of Clan mechs like this.

THIS

[Daemon04]

Yes on the imbalance but ive gotta disagree on the IS being able to take clan mechs. - that is bascially what the merc issue is about. being able to have both mech types at their disposal made the compstomproflstompggclose-units go clan because theyre better, just like youve explained.
I will have a huge problem having only IS mechs and no clan modules unlocked at all and that module shopping again. aah.

[Khan Felix Pryde]

So if you think there is a problem, you want balance. If you don't think there is a problem, you have balance and change is you enemy.
Either way you slice it PGI, your player base will suffer. Someone above me mentioned a solution and I don't think I should be dismissed so slightly. Adjust drop deck tonnage automatically to make up for huge win streaks. Once a day should suffice It is simple and here is why.

Pros:
1) Neither side will crucify you.
2) Whether you believe it is skill unbalance or tech unbalance won't matter. It will be harder for the winners (they like that) and easier for the losers (they need that)
3) Lore is preserved
4) Forces players to try other mechs. My normal go to is a Hellbringer, but today we are 5 tons light so I'll use a vulture.
5) It is an easy fix to a complicated problem, and its a long term fix at that
Cons: more people will play the game so more MECH cons. (see what I did there)

Now some helpful discussion. I think Clan mechs are superior. I think they should be (lore warrior here) Listen folks, how many of you play a victor? Why not? Because victors suck. None of you mind not playing victors, because you can play better mechs. In quick play people with clan mechs still play is mechs frequently. Why? Because they enjoy it and it is mixed teams. Now The Dane says mix CW and the problem will go away. He is right, the differences don't matter on a circumstantial level. I am not afraid of a Kodiak, I'm afraid of its pilot, which is why I can justify occasionally playing a Victor. After all, stats generally also prove that the inbalances are so slight they can only be proved with long term data, they are not going to affect my next encounter with a Kodiak. My balancing idea will work just as well as Dane's. It will not affect tactical combat like quirk changes or super nerfs, it will affect the statistics, and once people realize that being on an IS team does not forecast a 28% chance of victory, they will play with their mechs because they like it, not because they think their mech superior. Many of us play because its battletech, do not alienate us with a complete disregard for it. Two things I love in a game, being the underdog, and winning. But usually if I win, I wasn't the underdog, and if I was the underdog, I probably didn't win. Let the IS be the underdog with inferior (but lets face it is only barely so slightly) mechs, but not have to assume that guarantees them a loss.

Lastly, the only counter argument for this proposal that I have ever seen is that PGI doesn't want to admit that the tech is unbalanced. I think the cats out of the bag thanks to the Dane. PGI, masters of my favorite MMO, Consider that you are already doing what I propose as a solution, changing the drop deck tonnage. Just make It automatic with no cap and all your problems will go away.

[Tarogato]

CK16, on 15 December 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

It is no secert that IS has a huge edge with PPFD alphas anyone that says clans win this need to go against most laser vomit IS chassis....like the guy above me said, having your torso's alphas off before you even know your hit is annoying as hell. Seriously anyone that says oh go torso twist needs to go see that it is humanly impossible against some IS chassis to twit off the damage, burn times are that quick and when your rocking a 50+ alpha that has ranges of up to 500m it doesn't take much to wreck alot of Clan mechs like this.

First of all, PPFLD stands for "pinpoint front-loaded damage". It describes weapons that deal their damage all at once, instantaneously, and also do so without any spread. Lasers are not front-loaded, and missiles are not pinpoint. So this leaves gauss, PPCs, and Innersphere dakka (but not Clan dakka).

Consider that a HBK-IIC-A can jump upward, just barely crest a ridge, and fire off two cERPPCs dealing 20 PPFLD (+10 splash) before instantly dropping back down behind the ridge. Timber can do it for 35 damage using a cGauss and two cERPPCs and the Night Gyr can do it with two cGauss and a cERPPC for 40 damage.

The Innersphere have the BJ-3, which only deals 20 damage and doesn't have splash. The WHM-6R, which actually has UAC5s, which isn't very front-loaded, more like dakka, and it can't jump. There's the TBT-7K that can mount two PPC and AC5... which is 25 damage and no spash bonus. Shadowhawk for 20 alpha damage. The Cataphract which can do two PPC AC10, for 30 damage, but it's a barn door for hitboxes and slow as balls. The CPLT-K2 can two 2PPC 2AC5, but no jumpjets and only 30 alpha. The Victor can jump and move moderately quick, but only carries 2PPC AC10, no splash bonus, and it's still a Victor. Pretty much ditto for the Highlander... except it's slow as balls. You can do 2ERPPC gauss on the Battlemaster, but nobody does. No jumpjets.


Also, IS mechs can not boast 50+ alphas at 500m.

Innersphere: (some builds necessitate dodging ghost heat, so I've account for this by adding 0.5s to the burn duration)

- 45 damage @500m in 1.5 seconds: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e1c5c9f4a2389ee (used frequently)
- 55 damage @500m in 1.5 seconds: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...598f14c902cf53b (doesn't get used anymore)
- 36 damage @500m in 1.0 seconds: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...29d7704daabf489 (used fairly often)
- 36 damage @500m in 1.0 seconds: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2f7cd588ea4f0bc (used as tonnage filler)
- 33 damage @400m in 0.67 seconds: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...92e701c95ac1bdb (or 63 damage @300m)
- 33 damage @400m in 0.67 seconds: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...21b4322bd3caec9 (or 53 damage @300m)
- 33 damage @400m in 0.67 seconds http://mwo.smurfy-ne...222c062d309f434 (or 51 damage at 250m)


Clan: (for PPFLD builds, the time in seconds accounts for the velocity at maximum optimal range. The time to deal damage is of course faster at shorter ranges.)

- 35 PPFLD @700m in 0.54 seconds http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e00bc74cf511372 (45 including splash)
- 50 PPFLD @700m in 0.49 seconds http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bdc300018beb374 (60 including splash)
- 54 damage @450m in 1.12 seconds http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5c25de88457e94c
- 68 damage @450m in 1.12 seconds http://mwo.smurfy-ne...620ce3d65f12bc2
- 47 damage @450m in 1.12 seconds http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5496c54ab4abf1b (with ECM)
- 61 damage @450m in 1.12 seconds http://mwo.smurfy-ne...72a82de38dfbb48
- 68 damage @450m in 1.12 seconds http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f5221264847f7f3



So you see, for the Innersphere to deal 50+ damage at 500m (which is a rather typical and common engagement range), they have to either have a burn duration akin to cERLL, or they have to eat massive ghost heat. Generally, the Innersphere alphas at 500m are 36 damage, 45 at most. And that's while eating ghost heat. Alphas that don't have heat penalties only deal their full damage out to about 300m (the range of the IS medium lasers with a module), and the typical complement of three LPL only reaches out to 400m on average and deals 33 damage.

So of course if you're trying to trade with the Innersphere inside 500m, you're going to get zapped by the insanely short burn durations. But if you can plant clan lasers alphas at 500m or even further out, you will out trade them. Plus, clan PPFLD alphas can tried pretty well with IS even right up to the IS optimal range, because while the burn duration is short, it will still spread damage on a clan poptart that is moving laterally while poptarting and twisting after shooting and dealing pinpoint front-loaded damage.

Edited by Tarogato, 16 December 2016 - 02:38 PM.

[Jarl Dane]

Tarogato, on 16 December 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

...science...

Sometimes people like saying how they feel and what they think they see.

AND OTHER TIMES TAROGATO SHOWS UP AND DOES SOME MOTHER ******* SCIENCE ON THEIR ASSES!!

Edited by Mech The Dane, 16 December 2016 - 02:45 PM.

[M A N T I S]

So, 500m is not a good engagement range for IS, and I recommend closing the distance before exposing yourself for trading purposes. This is why I generally engage my grasshoppers at around 300-350m. A much better range for me.

Sigh at the science comment. The context is so specific and, honestly, not relevant. You realize you have other option than fighting at 500m, right?

[Gas Guzzler]

M A N T I S, on 16 December 2016 - 02:55 PM, said:

So, 500m is not a good engagement range for IS, and I recommend closing the distance before exposing yourself for trading purposes. This is why I generally engage my grasshoppers at around 300-350m. A much better range for me.

Sigh at the science comment. The context is so specific and, honestly, not relevant. You realize you have other option than fighting at 500m, right?

Of course, at 300-350m your more at risk of being flanked than at 500m.

And if IS has the option of fighting under 500m wouldn't you say Clan mechs that are as a whole faster than IS mechs have the option of fighting over 500m?

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 16 December 2016 - 02:58 PM.

[nehebkau]

Mech The Dane, on 16 December 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

Sometimes people like saying how they feel and what they think they see.

AND OTHER TIMES TAROGATO SHOWS UP AND DOES SOME MOTHER ******* SCIENCE ON THEIR ASSES!!

And there in lies the problem -- people relying too much on "There was that 1 time, at mech camp, where I died" to make decisions. Second is the people who are (rightly?) afraid that if PGI makes a balance change that they will go too far so they deny, deny, misdirect and mislead. Honestly -- I find this whole exercise tiresome and it is starting to make me wonder why.

M A N T I S, on 16 December 2016 - 02:55 PM, said:

So, 500m is not a good engagement range for IS, and I recommend closing the distance before exposing yourself for trading purposes. This is why I generally engage my grasshoppers at around 300-350m. A much better range for me.

Sigh at the science comment. The context is so specific and, honestly, not relevant. You realize you have other option than fighting at 500m, right?

and its this point where you ignore the consistent Clanner speed advantage?? Taragato can you science the whole speed thing please.

Edited by nehebkau, 16 December 2016 - 03:01 PM.

[M A N T I S]

Yes I would agree with that guzzler. Of course if we run from our objectives, we will lose the game, so we are essentially bound to a particular area of engagement.

I mean, really. The argument put forward is like saying "I can't jump into a car going 60mph, car OP", where the answer should be, enter the car when it is parked. Only engage in the actions when advantageous to you. You aren't bound to disadvantaged scenarios.

And don't "science" me. I've taken many grueling maths, sciences, stats and labs in university. I'm not an idiot.

You can roll numbers all you want, but context matters.

Edited by M A N T I S, 16 December 2016 - 03:22 PM.

[Novakaine]

It all boils down is this.
When the IS pilots finally say "Screw This Sh***" or the cue is filled with only clan pilots.
Then what?
Oh and it's gonna happen.
Sure you'll have your pugs to crush, but soon they'll tire also.
Last season proved it.
Good luck fighting yourselves Tube Tykes.

[Uncle Stickyfinger]

Harper Steel, on 16 December 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

so you don't want your own Omnis??
you want everyone to have the same mechs??

You really dont think PGI wouldnt make them as powerful as Clan its an obvious way to balance the Game.. they could give the IS light and heavy Gauss and MRM missles..

First off, that's introducing all sorts of new tech that we have been repeatedly informed is not coming. There aren't going to BE light and Heavy Gauss. That's a red herring.

Secondly, counting on PGI to make them massively OP to balance things is both absurd and telling. You are saying the only way to achieve balance this way is to obsolete current every innersphere mech with better stuff. That is an absolute admission that the Innersphere mechs, as they stand, cannot compete.

[SmokeGuar]

Few points,

Lot of FW maps are sub-300 meters, go around corner, kill mechs.
Outside Boreal poptarting is somewhat limited.

When doing damage calculations, completely forget higher IS armor and structure quirks?

Ok, so that was really couple for starters.

And PGI basically doing same mistakes it did year ago. If you do not learn from your mistakes...

[Tarogato]

Mech The Dane, on 16 December 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

Sometimes people like saying how they feel and what they think they see.

AND OTHER TIMES TAROGATO SHOWS UP AND DOES SOME MOTHER ******* SCIENCE ON THEIR ASSES!!

*cringe*

Just reminded me of an overly supportive family member at a highschool football game. lol

SmokeGuar, on 16 December 2016 - 06:18 PM, said:

Few points,

Lot of FW maps are sub-300 meters, go around corner, kill mechs.
Outside Boreal poptarting is somewhat limited.

This is true, and I agree. But the FW-specific maps are now only encountered in the final stages of an invasion phase. The rest of the time, the maps are played on the QP maps. I haven't gotten a chance to play CW yet on the QP tracks errr, *cough* maps... but I've heard that brawling is favoured. Clans have the stronger brawl mechs right now. Innersphere doesn't have any good heavy class true brawlers. You have the Catapult A1, but it suffers from giant box ear syndrome and generally XL vulnerability. You could put splat on a Warhammer 7S, but no jumpjets, not incredibly fast moving. You could stack MPL on some heavies like the Thunderbolt, Grasshopper, or even Black Knight, but MPLs are kinda hot, they don't have the true sustained DPS of SRM brawlers, and most of these MPL boats aren't going to have jumpjets. The best Innersphere brawlers are their medium mechs like the Griffin and Shadowhawk, and the CAUTION - WIDE LOAD truck that is the Atlas cruising at the speed of "I'll get there eventually."

Meanwhile clans have the Timberwolf (4x SRM6a + 4-6 cSPL, JJs), the Summoner (5x SRM6a, JJs), the Vulture (6x SRM6a or 4x SRM6a + 5x cSPL), the Huntsman (6+ SRMs i'm not too familiar with its builds), the Nova (8+ cSPL depending on taste, JJs), the Stormcrow (12x cSPL or 5x cSRM6a). Plus the clans also can boat the heck out of streaks if they really want to, which are probably actually better than regular SRMs in the hands of the typical S. tuberosum, who cannot aim to save their lives.

If brawling isn't the meta, and it's more about the 200-500m engagements (less common in my extensive QP experience, but like I said I haven't played FW on the QP maps myself yet so it may play differently), then yeah you can directly compare/contract Clans and IS loadouts at the IS optimal engagement range. While IS have shorter duration, Clans have more damage. While IS produces less heat, Clans stack more heatsinks to counter their own heat. It kinda balances out. And IS XL is protected slightly by the shorter burn durations, needing to spend less facetime to dump an alpha, and structure quirks help a bit. I'd say that the shorter burn duration is very valuable though, so I give the edge to IS, generally speaking. But at brawling range and outside 500m, the Clans have the clear advantage. The optimal Innersphere engagement range is sandwiched between two ranges where I believe clans currently excel more, and it's also a range that I consider awkward to play at, due to the fact that it's sandwiched in the middle. You need to have an aggressive team to press the DPS advantage against a longer range team, and you need a skilled team to be able to spread out to receive and outshoot against a brawling team. It's tricky. Versatile, but in my opinion slightly more demanding.

Edited by Tarogato, 16 December 2016 - 06:55 PM.

[Count Zero 74]

Tarogato, on 16 December 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

So of course if you're trying to trade with the Innersphere inside 500m, you're going to get zapped by the insanely short burn durations. But if you can plant clan lasers alphas at 500m or even further out, you will out trade them. Plus, clan PPFLD alphas can tried pretty well with IS even right up to the IS optimal range, because while the burn duration is short, it will still spread damage on a clan poptart that is moving laterally while poptarting and twisting after shooting and dealing pinpoint front-loaded damage.

Ok my turn now, that sounds like some typical QP BS to me. Lets do some some match shall we?

So your standard FP meta-Ebon runs 2 LPL + 4 Mediums. Medium Lasers have a max range of 688m. So at 700m all the Ebon can trade with are his 2LPL with a burntime of 1.21 seconds. With me so far?

Now I counter that with a Grasshopper 5P with 5 Large Lasers with a max range of 1080m and a burntime of 0.85 seconds, wanna trade?

So yeah at 400-600 meters, when the Clanner can use his Meds he will outtrade you ( but the burntime will still hurt him) but at 700m+? No way. And btw, have u noticed they capped the LPL 850? Cause a lot of people here seem to be living in the past. So if you have the chance to get close as IS go for it but the point is if you play smart and use your brain (and are able to hit a barndoor from inside, which seems to be the real problem imo) IS can outtrade Clan at long ranges.

You know sitting at home and comparing numbers and ranges and dps and crunching numbers is one thing, but out there in a moving mech trying to hit a moving target while getting shot at is another. And from my experience the only thing that really matters out there is burntime,burntime,burntime.

[Vxheous]

Count Zero 74, on 16 December 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:

Ok my turn now, that sounds like some typical QP BS to me. Lets do some some match shall we?

So your standard FP meta-Ebon runs 2 LPL + 4 Mediums. Medium Lasers have a max range of 688m. So at 700m all the Ebon can trade with are his 2LPL with a burntime of 1.21 seconds. With me so far?

Now I counter that with a Grasshopper 5P with 5 Large Lasers with a max range of 1080m and a burntime of 0.85 seconds, wanna trade?

So yeah at 400-600 meters, when the Clanner can use his Meds he will outtrade you ( but the burntime will still hurt him) but at 700m+? No way. And btw, have u noticed they capped the LPL 850? Cause a lot of people here seem to be living in the past. So if you have the chance to get close as IS go for it but the point is if you play smart and use your brain (and are able to hit a barndoor from inside, which seems to be the real problem imo) IS can outtrade Clan at long ranges.

You know sitting at home and comparing numbers and ranges and dps and crunching numbers is one thing, but out there in a moving mech trying to hit a moving target while getting shot at is another. And from my experience the only thing that really matters out there is burntime,burntime,burntime.

Laser vomit trading is one thing, and you're totally right. PPFLD trading is a whole different issue. Dual Gauss/Dual ERPPC Kodiaks can still out-trade you at 800m (not that it should be as much a problem now at 240 ton dropdecks). Jump sniping Night Gyr, Timbers and Hunchbacks can trade evenly at 800m (but that is a testament to jump sniping skill). Even Ebons can mount 2 ERPPC and a Gauss into high mounts and hill hump trade. IS lacks viable PPFLD jump capable mechs, as Taragato pointed out.

[Void Angel]

Tarogato, on 16 December 2016 - 06:21 PM, said:

*cringe*

Just reminded me of an overly supportive family member at a highschool football game. lol





This is true, and I agree. But the FW-specific maps are now only encountered in the final stages of an invasion phase. The rest of the time, the maps are played on the QP maps. I haven't gotten a chance to play CW yet on the QP tracks errr, *cough* maps... but I've heard that brawling is favoured. Clans have the stronger brawl mechs right now. Innersphere doesn't have any good heavy class true brawlers. You have the Catapult A1, but it suffers from giant box ear syndrome and generally XL vulnerability. You could put splat on a Warhammer 7S, but no jumpjets, not incredibly fast moving. You could stack MPL on some heavies like the Thunderbolt, Grasshopper, or even Black Knight, but MPLs are kinda hot, they don't have the true sustained DPS of SRM brawlers, and most of these MPL boats aren't going to have jumpjets. The best Innersphere brawlers are their medium mechs like the Griffin and Shadowhawk, and the CAUTION - WIDE LOAD truck that is the Atlas cruising at the speed of "I'll get there eventually."

Meanwhile clans have the Timberwolf (4x SRM6a + 4-6 cSPL, JJs), the Summoner (5x SRM6, JJs), the Vulture (6x SRM6a or 4x SRM6a + 5x cSPL), the Huntsman (6+ SRMs i'm not too familiar with its builds), the Nova (8+ cSPL depending on taste, JJs), the Stormcrow (12x cSPL or 5x cSRM6a). Plus the clans also can boat the heck out of streaks if they really want to, which are probably actually better than regular SRMs in the hands of the typical S. tuberosum, who cannot aim to save their lives.

If brawling isn't the meta, and it's more about the 200-500m engagements (less common in my extensive QP experience, but like I said I haven't played FW on the QP maps myself yet so it may play differently), then yeah you can directly compare/contract Clans and IS loadouts at the IS optimal engagement range. While IS have shorter duration, Clans have more damage. While IS produces less heat, Clans stack more heatsinks to counter their own heat. It kinda balances out. And IS XL is protected slightly by the shorter burn durations, needing to spend less facetime to dump an alpha, and structure quirks help a bit. I'd say that the shorter burn duration is very valuable though, so I give the edge to IS, generally speaking. But at brawling range and outside 500m, the Clans have the clear advantage. The optimal Innersphere engagement range is sandwiched between two ranges where I believe clans currently excel more, and it's also a range that I consider awkward to play at, due to the fact that it's sandwiched in the middle. You need to have an aggressive team to press the DPS advantage against a longer range team, and you need a skilled team to be able to spread out to receive and outshoot against a brawling team. It's tricky. Versatile, but in my opinion slightly more demanding.

Could be worse. He could be running around the room with a lampshade on his head, shouting, "toga! toga! toga!!"

Mech The Dane, on 15 December 2016 - 02:11 AM, said:

Will you be my hero? I figured that there was a good reason PGI wanted to buff the FW drop decks, but I didn't realize the scope of the issue. Two of my three favorite 'mechs right now are Clan, but I just chalked it up to preference.

[Vxheous]

Void Angel, on 16 December 2016 - 06:57 PM, said:

Could be worse. He could be running around the room with a lampshade on his head, shouting, "toga! toga! toga!!"


Will you be my hero? I figured that there was a good reason PGI wanted to buff the FW drop decks, but I didn't realize the scope of the issue. Two of my three favorite 'mechs right now are Clan, but I just chalked it up to preference.

Well, Dane has smashed a chair post MRBC season on Twitch:

[MischiefSC]

Dex Spero, on 16 December 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

People are pretty deadset against the 10v12 idea and its been mentioned that PGI has already rejected it. Have teams tried it in private matches? I'd be interested to hear about actual 10v12 experiences and why it doesn't work rather then theories or PGI's opinion (not that the theories aren't insightful... but we all know sometimes reality can surprise you).

Yes. With original broken tech when Clans first came out.

Pugs, Clans won handily.

Teams, IS crushed Clans because focus fire > tech advantage.

If we tried to do 10 v 12 we'd have to *buff* the Clans above TT levels and it'd still be borked because FPS /= turn based strategy game.