197 replies to this topic

[Goober Gabber v2]

They aren't that OP.
Fair enough, I once face-tanked an Atlas with my MAD-IIC-D (or whichever sports the dual gauss), although that player wasn't probably going all-out with it. It was during a match where I decided to just go crazy and go as the tip of the spearhead. Somehow it worked well and I took down that Atlas with a little help, plus two lights that decided to, for some reason, look over the same ridge where the Atlas died.

But I also had plenty of matches where I got pummeled really easily.


It can pack a punch, but it can be taken down easily if you focus its 'wings'. Honestly. If you manage to miss those, then you really need to look for some help.

Edited by Goober Gabber v2, 21 December 2016 - 03:50 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Gaden Phoenix, on 20 December 2016 - 08:40 PM, said:

Oh, it is also OP, because when a new mech is out, it is always OPed by virtue of many people including a lot lots of good players leveling it. And people (I including) often tend to remember the good players in the mech rather then the no so good players in the mech (unless they do something super epic).

Yeah people always remember when they were totally destroyed by Mech A, B or C but seldom even notice the times they were barely scratched by the same Mech A, B or C. Also it is never because that the mech that killed them was piloted by a highly skilled player, it is always because the mech is superior or OP.

El Bandito, on 21 December 2016 - 03:23 AM, said:

MAD-IICs do perform better on average than regular Marauders, in the matches that I have played. There is no way regular Marauders are equal to the MAD-IICs in general. In fact, I'm gonna bet MAD-IICs will be picked in comp tourneys.

The mech is not what I would consider OP, but it is very strong. And it is not a glass cannon. The mech can spread frontal damage well.

I did point out that my MAD-IIC are performing slight better than my Marauders (at least as far as damage output, if not in K/D) but it is by a fairly slim margin but I also point out that, that should be expected because we are comparing a 85 ton Assault mech to a 75 ton Heavy mech. However this is a very, very important factor and why I think that people who are complaining about the MAD-IIC being OP are just silly.

Sorry in advance for the CAPS here but.....

THE 85 TON ASSAULT CLASS MECH, THE MARAUDER IIC, ONLY PERFORMS SLIGHTLY BETTER THAN A 75 TON HEAVY CLASS MECH, THE MARAUDER!!!!

Seriously by virtue of the simple fact that it is a CLAN mech that is 10 tons heavier and can mount a Clan XL engine, the MAD-IIC should be laying waste to the Marauder. It shouldn't even be a close fight especially considering my MAD-BH is mounting a standard engine. I mean the MAD-IIC should have ALL the advantages. It has more overall tonnage, more free tonnage for weapons and equipment, has the ability to mount 7 crit slot Endo and Ferro, mount an XL engine that allows it to potentially move faster than the Marauder, longer range weapons, lighter weapons, 2 slot DHS, let me reiterate, ALL THE ADVANTAGES!!! So why then is is only performing only slightly better that the Marauder??

This is why it sounds so silly when people claim it is OP.

[El Bandito]

Viktor Drake, on 21 December 2016 - 06:01 AM, said:

Seriously by virtue of the simple fact that it is a CLAN mech that is 10 tons heavier and can mount a Clan XL engine, the MAD-IIC should be laying waste to the Marauder. It shouldn't even be a close fight especially considering my MAD-BH is mounting a standard engine. I mean the MAD-IIC should have ALL the advantages. It has more overall tonnage, more free tonnage for weapons and equipment, has the ability to mount 7 crit slot Endo and Ferro, mount an XL engine that allows it to potentially move faster than the Marauder, longer range weapons, lighter weapons, 2 slot DHS, let me reiterate, ALL THE ADVANTAGES!!! So why then is is only performing only slightly better that the Marauder??

That's because you are naive enough to think that your experience alone speaks for everyone else's. Unless there are several threads claiming the same thing, it is not very convincing.

Rayden Wolf, on 21 December 2016 - 03:34 AM, said:

And why should they not perform better? They are 10t heavyer I think the mech is fine, have no problems to deal with em. But i could also deal with Kodiaks, no matter wich number they carry.

I am just telling Viktor how good the MAD-IIC is. Heavy mechs (specifically 70-75 tonners) generally perform better than that of Assaults in MWO--hence their popularity. The fact MAD-IIC is performing better than a good Heavy mech is clear proof of its prowess.

Edited by El Bandito, 21 December 2016 - 06:22 AM.

[Mawai]

If I had to guess, PGI will postpone all balance decisions until the new skill system drops since that is going to change balance across the board. My worry (and I think it is justified) is that PGI will do things in a totally off the wall and half baked manner in terms of overall balance and we won't wind up any better off.

[Y E O N N E]

Rayden Wolf, on 21 December 2016 - 03:34 AM, said:

And why should they not perform better? They are 10t heavyer

I seem to recall the same argument being shot down back when the Stalker was good enough to sometimes win agaibst the Timberwolf.


Hmmmm...

[Angel of Annihilation]

El Bandito, on 21 December 2016 - 06:16 AM, said:

That's because you are naive enough to think that your experience alone speaks for everyone else's. Unless there are several threads claiming the same thing, it is not very convincing.

Lets think logically about this for a minute.

If you only have one player using two different mech and want to compare them to each other, then you can totally eliminate the skill level of the pilot being a factor in the outcome of the comparison. All that is left is Mech and Tech, nothing else. This is especially true in the case of the Marauder and the Marauder IIC because of their near identical nature. They are the same general size, have about the same general movement profile and the same general speeds. Hit boxes are also almost identical so again, ALL we have left on the table is Mech and Tech.

So the make it simpler, the fact of the matter is that my personal experience isn't relevant to the comparison because it doesn't matter if my personal experience is one of a Potato and one of an Uber Leet player because I am the one playing both mech, mechs that are near identical. Therefore if one mech or the other is OP, then it should be reflected in my stats, i.e. if the Marauder IIC is actually OP, I should be seeing some sort of significant increase in the stats I am achieving with the Marauder IIC over the Marauder. I however am not seeing that, rather I am seeing a near equal performance between the two mech. Honestly that is all the proof I need to be 100% certain that the Marauder IIC isn't OP well unless your willing to concede that the Marauder is actually just as OP and is in need of the same nerfs people are clamoring for on the MAD-IIC.

Seriously there is nothing naive about this conclusion, same pilot, same skill, same results = not OP. The only naive thing I could do is listen to a bunch of people of unknown skill and credibility telling me that the MAD-IIC is OP because they got killed by one at some point during the last few weeks. Heck for all I know, they are a complete Potato and suck at the game and got worked over by one of the best pilots in the game and then ran to the Forums to cry OP. My personal experience though, now that is 100% reliable info.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 21 December 2016 - 10:58 AM.

[HGAK47]

I got my very first ever headshot kill against one of those bubble head mechs . I think I was in a centurion no less!

[El Bandito]

Viktor Drake, on 21 December 2016 - 10:57 AM, said:

Lets think logically about this for a minute.

If you only have one player using two different mech and want to compare them to each other, then you can totally eliminate the skill level of the pilot being a factor in the outcome of the comparison. All that is left is Mech and Tech, nothing else. This is especially true in the case of the Marauder and the Marauder IIC because of their near identical nature. They are the same general size, have about the same general movement profile and the same general speeds. Hit boxes are also almost identical so again, ALL we have left on the table is Mech and Tech.

So the make it simpler, the fact of the matter is that my personal experience isn't relevant to the comparison because it doesn't matter if my personal experience is one of a Potato and one of an Uber Leet player because I am the one playing both mech, mechs that are near identical. Therefore if one mech or the other is OP, then it should be reflected in my stats, i.e. if the Marauder IIC is actually OP, I should be seeing some sort of significant increase in the stats I am achieving with the Marauder IIC over the Marauder. I however am not seeing that, rather I am seeing a near equal performance between the two mech. Honestly that is all the proof I need to be 100% certain that the Marauder IIC isn't OP well unless your willing to concede that the Marauder is actually just as OP and is in need of the same nerfs people are clamoring for on the MAD-IIC.

Seriously there is nothing naive about this conclusion, same pilot, same skill, same results = not OP. The only naive thing I could do is listen to a bunch of people of unknown skill and credibility telling me that the MAD-IIC is OP because they got killed by one at some point during the last few weeks. Heck for all I know, they are a complete Potato and suck at the game and got worked over by one of the best pilots in the game and then ran to the Forums to cry OP. My personal experience though, now that is 100% reliable info.

Just because I have higher stats with the Banshee-3E than my Banshee-3M doesn't means BNC-3E is the better mech in general. Just because my Golden Boy has higher stats than the Stormcrow doesn't mean that Kintaro variant is factually better than the Crow for everyone else. There are many things personal experience alone does not prove.

Edited by El Bandito, 21 December 2016 - 11:30 AM.

[Fox the Apprentice]

Snazzy Dragon, on 19 December 2016 - 04:30 PM, said:

Leaderboards are no indicator at first because not everyone that has their shiny new mechs actually knows how to play or build them and not everyone that would know owns them yet.

They are still a better indicator than feelings and opinions

[Fox the Apprentice]

Gaden Phoenix, on 20 December 2016 - 06:12 PM, said:

MAD-IIC has low mounts
[...]

I disagree with this statement. The top energy mount on most variants serves me just fine for peeking; the torso ballistic mounts are just as high on the regular MAD.

I'm not disagreeing with the rest of your post, however.

[Mole]

nitra, on 20 December 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

and just to illustrate my point a lil further

Yeah! How DARE that Marauder IIC take 90 damage to kill?! Oh, what's that? Other Assault 'mechs in the same weight range as the Marauder IIC have over 100 armor on their CT and could tank the same amount of damage with armor to spare? Huh... whodathunk it?

Edited by Mole, 21 December 2016 - 11:50 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

El Bandito, on 21 December 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

Just because I have higher stats with the Banshee-3E than my Banshee-3M doesn't means BNC-3E is the better mech in general. Just because my Golden Boy has higher stats than the Stormcrow doesn't mean that Kintaro variant is factually better than the Crow for everyone else.

Popular opinion does matter, if many non-potato players agree with it.

You know I do absolutely see where your coming from because inherent differences in two mechs be it two completely different mechs or just the same mech with two completely different builds can absolutely effect the comparsion even if the pilot is the same. Also you have to factor in pilot preference as well because some people against all odds just do very well in crappy mechs. However the Marauder and Marauder IIC actually are a very special case, they are near identical. Hell even the loadouts I am using on the two mechs is near identical.

Also lets define Overpowered really quick. To be Overpowered, a mech has to be able to completely dominate the field and be better that any other mech in the game. It can't just be a good mech, it can't just match other mechs, it has to dominate other mechs. I have only see one mech in this game have that effect and that was the KDK-3 with its Quad UAC build. No mech, big, small or otherwise could stand up face-to-face to a KDK-3 in that configuration. That is OP and I don't think the MAD-IIC meets this qualification. It is just good but doesn't dominate the game. Timberwolves, Marauders and many others can match up just fine with a MAD-IIC.

Also which popular opinion are we talking about? IS player popular opinion? Players who don't own either the Marauder or the Marauder IIC popular opinion? The ignorant masses, those who don't really understand anything about tech differences, popular opinion? There are a lot of "Popular Opinions" out there that have definite bias or flat out ignorance factoring into that opinion and you have to be very, very careful about which popular opinions you listen too. Hell, I am sure the hard core Clanner Popular opinion has it that the torso twist on the MAD-IIC is way too restrictive, that it doesn't have enough high mounts and that its lack of quriks make it under powered, however just because they believe that doesn't make it true.

[Lightfoot]

Carries load outs similar to Cyclops, Warhawk, Mauler, there is a little variation and the Mauler and Cyclops get much better armor. All of them are good also, OP when used right. MAD IIc has the usual Marauder weaknesses. Assaults are always powerful mechs and the MAD IIc's load outs are not remarkable for an 85 ton mech.

[Kangarad]

Because someone asked for this ingame...

SCORCH LRM Boat

Ive seen so many bad builds on MAd IIC...

you dont bring 2 uac5. its an assault bring 2 uac10

uac5 only if 3 or greater in number OR if you allready have UAC10.

Engine wise ... you don't have to go 395 XL. its an assault. Its okay if you go 55+. AND BRING WAY MORE GUNS.

with speed perk unlocked a 280 is okay. and that gives you a lot of free tons as a clan mech.
so that 3x uac5 marauder with its 4 med lasers has you out dps'd ? Your build sucks.

MAD-IIC-A 3xUCA10

3 uac 10 and 4 Cmed las. runs just as hot as the former. with MORE damage and laser range. might exchange one of the uac10's for a 5 to avoid ghost heat tho but it will still rock. and thats a standart engine. if you drop more armour on the arms you can bring more ammo. but 800 damage in ammo before crits or lasers should bring you far enough.
Why are there people running arround with 4 to 7 different weapon types which are totaly out of sync? you don't have to fill all the slots... Potatoes.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Van Hoven, on 21 December 2016 - 01:34 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...90a604a71fdef0c

Fixed the Scorch build for you. (Not filling all the hardpoints is heresy)

You hurt me, sir.

[Jackal Noble]

Kangarad, on 21 December 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

Because someone asked for this ingame...

SCORCH LRM Boat

Ive seen so many bad builds on MAd IIC...

you dont bring 2 uac5. its an assault bring 2 uac10

uac5 only if 3 or greater in number OR if you allready have UAC10.

Engine wise ... you don't have to go 395 XL. its an assault. Its okay if you go 55+. AND BRING WAY MORE GUNS.

with speed perk unlocked a 280 is okay. and that gives you a lot of free tons as a clan mech.
so that 3x uac5 marauder with its 4 med lasers has you out dps'd ? Your build sucks.

MAD-IIC-A 3xUCA10

3 uac 10 and 4 Cmed las. runs just as hot as the former. with MORE damage and laser range. might exchange one of the uac10's for a 5 to avoid ghost heat tho but it will still rock. and thats a standart engine. if you drop more armour on the arms you can bring more ammo. but 800 damage in ammo before crits or lasers should bring you far enough.
Why are there people running arround with 4 to 7 different weapon types which are totaly out of sync? you don't have to fill all the slots... Potatoes.

While a 375 or lower might be optimal the A, I actually enjoy it with a 390, 2UAC5s, 1UAC10, and 4 ersmalls. I will say tho, I will definite reconsider after reading the case you put forth in the first paragraph.

[Mole]

Sombedy's probably gonna yell at me for this but when I get my hands on a MAD-IIC I kinda wanna carbon copy the build I have on my IS Marauder, except its lasers will do more damage because clan tech, the AC is an Ultra, and it goes faster and has more armor than my IS Marauder.

MAD-IIC-C

[Angel of Annihilation]

Kangarad, on 21 December 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

Because someone asked for this ingame...

SCORCH LRM Boat

Ive seen so many bad builds on MAd IIC...

you dont bring 2 uac5. its an assault bring 2 uac10

uac5 only if 3 or greater in number OR if you allready have UAC10.

Engine wise ... you don't have to go 395 XL. its an assault. Its okay if you go 55+. AND BRING WAY MORE GUNS.

with speed perk unlocked a 280 is okay. and that gives you a lot of free tons as a clan mech.
so that 3x uac5 marauder with its 4 med lasers has you out dps'd ? Your build sucks.

MAD-IIC-A 3xUCA10

3 uac 10 and 4 Cmed las. runs just as hot as the former. with MORE damage and laser range. might exchange one of the uac10's for a 5 to avoid ghost heat tho but it will still rock. and thats a standart engine. if you drop more armour on the arms you can bring more ammo. but 800 damage in ammo before crits or lasers should bring you far enough.
Why are there people running arround with 4 to 7 different weapon types which are totaly out of sync? you don't have to fill all the slots... Potatoes.

Why do weapons have to be in sync? I have one build for my MAD-IIC-8 that uses a single ER PPC in the high mount, 2 LPLs and 3 ER MLs and It is very effective. I get 3 heavy, high damage weapons including one I can hill hump snipe with to reduce damage, also because I am using an ER PPC and only 2 LPLs I avoid Ghost heat on the LPLs and finally I have 3 ER MLs to fire when my other weapons are on cool down. I also tend to cycle though my weapons and focus on sustained fire rather than rely on pure alpha strikes.

Another one uses a Single Gauss in the high mount, plus 2 LPLs in the right arm and 3 ER ML in the left arm for much of the same reasons and used in the same way.

I may not be uber leet but I almost always have a match score in the top 4 on my team so running a mixed loadout doesn't seem to much effect my performance.

[Lightfoot]

Kangarad, on 21 December 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

Because someone asked for this ingame...

SCORCH LRM Boat

Ive seen so many bad builds on MAd IIC...

you dont bring 2 uac5. its an assault bring 2 uac10

uac5 only if 3 or greater in number OR if you allready have UAC10.

Engine wise ... you don't have to go 395 XL. its an assault. Its okay if you go 55+. AND BRING WAY MORE GUNS.

with speed perk unlocked a 280 is okay. and that gives you a lot of free tons as a clan mech.
so that 3x uac5 marauder with its 4 med lasers has you out dps'd ? Your build sucks.

MAD-IIC-A 3xUCA10

3 uac 10 and 4 Cmed las. runs just as hot as the former. with MORE damage and laser range. might exchange one of the uac10's for a 5 to avoid ghost heat tho but it will still rock. and thats a standart engine. if you drop more armour on the arms you can bring more ammo. but 800 damage in ammo before crits or lasers should bring you far enough.
Why are there people running arround with 4 to 7 different weapon types which are totaly out of sync? you don't have to fill all the slots... Potatoes.

too slow, Clan LRM Artemis is too nerfed, dump it. No BAP so you are not serious about the LRMs. No AMS so you would never survive vs a dedicated missile boat since you are too slow to dodge their LRMs. Just some pointers.

The other one will overheat, low ammo, too slow (I hate asking PUGs to wait for me since they never do) and once you are alone the zergs will surround you and bring you down.

They are powerful designs, but they also have a lot of weaknesses like most boats and the MAD IIc is slow to turn even with a large engine. Boats are easy to hit with, but they don't make the best use of the mech. You can always switch out one weapon for another from a boat and get almost the same result.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Mole, on 21 December 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

Sombedy's probably gonna yell at me for this but when I get my hands on a MAD-IIC I kinda wanna carbon copy the build I have on my IS Marauder, except its lasers will do more damage because clan tech, the AC is an Ultra, and it goes faster and has more armor than my IS Marauder.

MAD-IIC-C

Hi Mole,

I am going to use your post as an example of the problem I see with people discussing Clan vs IS tech balance. It isn't directed at your personally but just to provide an example.

Ok first of all when you put together your MAD-IIC build and said, "Ahh Ha, Bigger, Faster, Stronger" did you consider the following factors?


ONE: The Clan ER MLs are 50% hotter than the IS ones, have a longer beam duration which in turn means they fire slower than you IS mechs MLs will so while your Clan ER MLs will have a higher alpha damage but might not have as much sustained damage over time. Also the IS lasers will be ready to re-fire faster so you might have some opportunity fire situations that you wouldn't have with the Clan weapons. Also the run cooler so you likely won't hit your heat cap as fast again possibly allowing for more sustained and/or opportunity fire situations. You do get a range advantage though which can be nice at those points in the game where you are engaging at ranges longer than around 300m (probably 20% of the time).

TWO: As far as the UACs while they can be very powerful, they have a horrible jam chance and duration which often leads to long periods of down time on one of your major weapons systems. Further since Clan UACs are burst fire weapons, there is a tendency to spread damage across multiple section of the enemy or even miss entirely which can increase TTK significantly. You do get to benefit from the screen shake effect however when your weapons are actually working and not jammed.

THREE: The weapons taken together with their longer beam duration and burst fire mode will require the MAD-IIC to remain exposed to enemy fire longer thus potentially causing it to take my return fire damage.

FOUR: Speed, yeah you will have that. But from a mobility standpoint you are actually at a disadvantage in the MAD-IIC due to the fact that the Marauder gets some fairly substantial buffs via quirks to its acceleration, deceleration and turn rate. This means your average Marauder will likely be able to maneuver in and out of cover faster thus potentially reducing the overall damage it will take.

FIVE: Armor advantage? Technically yes but in reality no because the Marauder has tons of structure buff quirks means your actual durability is about the same between the two mechs.

Again sorry to pick on you and as I said this isn't really directed at you but I honestly think your post is an excellent illustration of the ongoing perception issues people tend to have when looking at IS vs Clan balance in the game. In your post you just focus on the obvious characteristics of Clan weapons, mechs and tech and appear to come to a very wrong conclusion that everything Clan is bigger, faster, stronger with what appears to be little regard to the characteristics that actually negatively effect Clan mechs, namely much hotter, longer beam durations, burst effects, etc.

Basically there often seems to be a massive failure to look at the "BIg Picture" and an even worse understanding of how the characteristics of Clan weapons, not necessarily the numbers, dramatically effect the performance of Clan mechs, usually for the worse unfortunately.