122 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

Acehilator, on 19 December 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

Not really sold on the Sunder. Hardpoints above cockpit level are meh, and a locked IS XL 360... no thanks.

Would rather see the Marauder II. With hitboxes modeled along the lines of the IS Marauder as it is in game, coupled with some King Crab-level quirks... yes please. Who cares if it is slow? #facemeltOr

For the same reason, pass on the Devastator and Pillager, no need for another humanoid 100t mech.

Big quirks? Probably not gonna be the case with later game releases...

[Tarogato]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 19 December 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

@Tarogato, remove the Hammer from your list given it is a 5/8 stock which means it will be too slow and considering its profile will probably be easy to XL check. Hermes has the best chance given how it is slender like the Spider.

Ah you're right.

But I already went through the effort of googling a pair of pictures for it. lol

Btw, added spreadsheet link to my post above, where you can search through any other chassis I may have looked at but didn't have in my post. Still WIP, and only up to 3059 or something.

[Acehilator]

Prosperity Park, on 19 December 2016 - 03:53 PM, said:

Big quirks? Probably not gonna be the case with later game releases...

Wouldn't really call most of the remaining IS quirks 'big' Handful passable mechs, 80% garbage. And Russ already said that quirks will remain, just under a different name (additional base stats or something? was on his Twitter a while ago, too lazy to check).

I hope that the current FW 4.1 fiasco brought the fact to PGI's collective attention that IS mechs need their quirks to survive. But given their history regarding balance/game mechanic changes, it will probably be a clusterduck of epic proportions, you are right

/edit: spelling

Edited by Acehilator, 19 December 2016 - 04:02 PM.

[Tristan Winter]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 19 December 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

FTFY

Nah.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tristan Winter, on 19 December 2016 - 04:10 PM, said:

Nah.

The 732B is at least as good as the HGN-IIC-C, the HGN IIC still has the problem of its hardpoint placement not really being great (because the energy is on the opposite torso).

[oldradagast]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 December 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

This is a PVP video game, which means anytime something is made obsolete, its bad. It doesn't matter if it costs more. At all. Unless that cost factors in to how the team is composed, its a meaningless property. Something has less hardpoints than something else? Buff some other aspect of it to give it a reason to exist.

Exactly. Just as "pay to win" is bad, making people's current in-game toys useless is a sure-fire way to drive people away from the game in time. This is doubly true in a game where the toys we're fighting with have some level of meaning to us - people have favorite mechs, for example. Making that favorite mech weak scrap because something new came out is just going to anger players in the long run.

[Y E O N N E]

More detailed:

1453 R, on 19 December 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

Toyama

Dunno about this one. The JagerMech-style arms make for a potentially solid poker, but the engine cap is anemic and the thing would need a slew of PiranhaTech variants to make up for not getting any FutureTech. Which would also need to make up for the thing not having very focused hardpoints the way folks like for their PowahBoating shenans.

That said, looks like it might be a solid platform for Gauss/2xPPC if those arms stay high, so it could edge out a niche as a competent hill impregnating snipah with heavier firepower/potentially better geo than the JagerMook. Something, I suppose.

Stock 300 engine means 360 cap in the 'MechLab. It can run fast if it has to, though as a dakka/FLD sniper, it need only run at stock speeds anyway, since that's what the Night Gyr and Warhammer do.

You only need three or four hard-points to be meta, all some combination of energy and ballistic. It meets this requirement easily.

I especially like this 'Mech because the stripped arm looks like it would make a decent shield, too.

Quote

Dragon Fire

Mmmm...Dragon Fire. You want a competitor to the Cauldron-Born on the Sphere side? Here ya go. Engine cap's still a bit crappy, but that's going to happen with any Sphere 75-tonner of the era, but unlike the Toyama this thing promises to be a squat, hitbox-positive BallistiBeam monstrosity. Just look at that thing - it's got a better frontal profile than the Marauder, almost as good as the Stalker, and look at those arm mounts. Just look at them!

you'd still end up with a flood of PiranhaTech, but at least the base chassis looks like a very solid contender. Definitely worth investigating for Sphere guys wanting a powerful new toy.

Again, stock 300 engine means 360 in the 'MechLab.

The Toyama will shield better, the Dragon Fire will distribute better. I'd say durability likely ends up a wash. I'd probably want the Dragon Fire more the closer the range bracket. Lack of arms gives me pause about the XL-viability on the Dragon Fire, though; the Marauder has some arms to soak damage, and the Dragon Fire has a similar torso configuration (read: long). Then again, the Catapult can XL pretty well, but only when running fast.

Quote

Dragoon

Looks all sleek and Future-y. Swank. Main variant engine cap is once again crap - dem Sphere guys just don't like to go fast - and the strictly arm-mounted weaponry could be a big durability problem, but it's another case of high-up JagerArms with big honkin' guns in them. And the second listed variant, with ashloads of energy hardpoints, an AC/20, and a stock 350XL? That's more like it. That thing could be a very mean hitter, kitted out for both PPC/Gauss mobile sniping or the heavy brawlyness it's originally built for. The 004 comes with tons of SRM hardpoints, as well.

Lots of juicy weapons configurations in this one. Kinda sad it's Amaris' 'Mech and thus almost certainly never going to materialize again. It's actually a pretty solid design.

280 stock engine means 340 cap in the 'MechLab so...yet another case where it can run fast if it has to. That said, with dual Gauss and Jump Jets...you will not be running fast.

Having to stuff all your weapons in the arms is a concern. Most 'Mechs strip one or both arms to maximize available tonnage; this 'Mech can't do that. The tonnage you'd shave from stripping an arm is normally what you'd put toward JJs, but since we can't do that we'll have to take it away from either engine or DHS, which means PPC builds run hotter than competitors.

Quote

Black Hawk KU

This sucker? Hueh hueh, dat old MW2 loadout, bruh. I would not have picked this as an 'Effective IS 'Mech', though. Free tonnage on this jackwagon is lower than the Linebacker, and it's not nearly as fast. Sure, you can slap in Endo and dump the jets to get a ton more room, but what're you going to do with it? You can build it with a 360XL to match the Linebacker for speed and then...have a 97kph, 60-ton Nova with heat problems.

It's cool, but it doesn't seem all that stronk. Especially those alternate variants. Lulz. Would rather see the Dragon Fire.

This 'Mech has exactly one purpose: Medium Laser nuke-boat. The IS do not have any 'Mechs that can do this, and to my knowledge there are no other alternatives if we want an IS 'Mech with 12 lasers. This 'Mech might even be better at it than the Nova, since it burn a target down from 300 meters vice 200.

It's also fast.

Quote

Marauder II

BECAUSE THIS IS A GOOD IDEA. Take the Marauder, give it the size/mass/speed-and-agility issues of a 100t 'Mech, but only without significantly increasing its weapons payload. Blegh. I mean you could fix it, provided the hardpoint inflation was severe enough, but it still sorta smacks of "let's make a Marauder IIC for the Sphere except make it kinda bad."

Even if the irony of one-upping the Clan one-upsmanship of bolting ten extra tons onto the Marauder ("Oh yeah? I'll see your ten tons and raise you fifteen!") makes me giggle, I would kinna much rather have a...

This is basically an IS MAD-IIC. Speed isn't a problem; the best Clan MAD-IIC variants are usually running about 69.7 anyway, often less. There is even a variant of the MAD II that features Gauss in the arms. This, combined with its narrow frontal profile, makes it a solid option for corner peaking.

Quote

Nightstar

Kinda like a Pillager but with a better frontal profile and Cauldron-Born/Big O arms. Slow as hell, but possibly a very potent distance 'Mech with stock Dual Gauss and potentially room for dual PPCs as well after cramming Endo in there with a hammer. In that role it could potentially match the Kodiak in terms of sheer facemeltery, given that all four guns would be much closer to higher up and thus easier to hit with. You (potentially) expose a lot less Nightstar than you do KDK-3 for twin Pepsigoose loadouts. Also has one variant with an Executioner engine instead, if that matters, and a variant with jump jets and giant FutureTech boomsticks. That could be fun. Provided we get giant FutureTech boomsticks.

Honestly, PGI would do well to artificially inflate the engine cap on this one to at least 360 (they inflated the PHX, why not the NSR?). With or without, considerable room is available for firepower on this 'Mech.

Still, the IS's overriding problem is that, even when they can fit 2xGauss + 2x PPC, they can't usually fit any additional cooling. It all went into the 8 extra tons it requires to run the IS versions of those weapons. If PGI would let the IS fire three PPCs of either type together, you could save a lot of weight and run a comparable 45 PPFLD for the same weight and slots and have room left over for cooling. The BNC-3E, actually, can fit 17xDHS with this load-out. If they removed or dramatically reduced (to, say, 10-15%) the IS Gauss explosion chance, we'd have a lot more viable 'Mechs already without having to add new ones.

It's incredible the effect those two small tweaks would have on the game.

Quote

Thinking the Dragon Fire, Dragoon, and Nightstar are your best bets short of the Sunder becoming possible, but will also admit that any of these (with the possible exception of the Marauder II) would be much better additions than the fraggin' WASP or STINGER. Seriously...why do people even want those useless heaps again?

Wasp and Stinger are trash-tier, and always have been. 20 tons is not enough to bring JJs and dangerous firepower and still be fast enough to evade.

[Snazzy Dragon]

There are a lot of IS mechs that I would want but most of them are in the category because they have variants that field stuff like LB-20x cannons, stealth armor, IS ER lasers, light fusion engines, UAC 10/20s, etc... frankly if it is made before 3060 I don't want it because I do not want to be stuck in the 3050s forever.

[Angel of Annihilation]

1453 R, on 19 December 2016 - 03:39 PM, said:

Yeah, but once you exempt the Kodiak (and Piranha's working real hard on exempting the Kodiak from play forever), the assault category is already the one the Sphere is closest to parity in. Hell, short the Kodiak I'd say the Sphere holds a solid superiority in the assault category, since every single remaining Clan assault 'Mech (with the possible exception of the Marauder IIC, don't want to make a value call on that thing yet) is deeply flawed in multiple ways.

The Sphere needs stronker heavies more'n anything else, and the Dragon Fire is a (potentially) hella stronk heavy. Better than a lot of other potential options at this point, especially given the fact that we all bloody know the Thunder Hawk's not happening.

I don't know, the IS have some really strong heavies in the Warhammer and Marauder Chassis. I know alot of people will disagree with me here but I have no problem keeping pace with a Timberwolf or Ebon Jaguar stat-wise while using either mech. To me it is the heavier 50 and 55 ton mediums where the IS mechs struggle. None of them are really comparable to a Stormcrow or Nova though I have to admit they tend to specialize alot better than the Clan mechs do.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Viktor Drake, on 19 December 2016 - 04:59 PM, said:

None of them are really comparable to a StormcrowHunchback IIC or Nova though I have to admit they tend to specialize alot better than the Clan mechs do.

FTFY

[Alan Davion]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 December 2016 - 04:53 PM, said:

Wasp and Stinger are trash-tier, and always have been. 20 tons is not enough to bring JJs and dangerous firepower and still be fast enough to evade.

Trash tier when the Clans are involved I hope is what you mean. If the Clans weren't in the mix these mechs might have some degree of usefulness as sneak assassins or distractions.

Snazzy Dragon, on 19 December 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

There are a lot of IS mechs that I would want but most of them are in the category because they have variants that field stuff like LB-20x cannons, stealth armor, IS ER lasers, light fusion engines, UAC 10/20s, etc... frankly if it is made before 3060 I don't want it because I do not want to be stuck in the 3050s forever.

Then you might want to apply for a job at PGI in the coding department because supposedly they have no idea on how to add in the new/remaining weapons the IS needs to bring it to tech equivalency with the Clans in order to simplify balancing the two sides.

Which I have a hard time believing, as it should just be copy/paste/edit the xml files. Copy the Clan ER Medium, paste into IS weapons, edit xml to the appropriate IS numbers for damage, burn time, cool down, heat, and then whatever work is needed to change the color.

You can't properly balance one side when the other is missing half the weapons the first side has.

[Y E O N N E]

Alan Davion, on 19 December 2016 - 05:07 PM, said:

Trash tier when the Clans are involved I hope is what you mean. If the Clans weren't in the mix these mechs might have some degree of usefulness as sneak assassins or distractions.

No, still trash-tier in an IS-only playing field. The Firestarter, Jenner, Wolfhound, the Locust, and even the Commando would crush them every time through superior firepower. The only way they compare to the Locust is if they forgo the Jump Jets so they can bring a comparably weighty weapons payload.

[MechaBattler]

They need to just move up the timeline. Dip a toe in the pool of new weapons by introducing only new IS weapons that are for the most part crappier versions of the Clan ones. And most importantly, Light Fusion Engines. It's still inferior to a clan XL. But with perhaps a critical hit increase or something, it might be enough, without just turning everything the same.

And how do we imagine IS Omnis are going to fair with inferior weapons? If nothing else, give them all the truly new stuff. Course it's the holidays, so PGI probably won't be doing much major until the new year comes in.

[Alan Davion]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 December 2016 - 05:11 PM, said:

No, still trash-tier in an IS-only playing field. The Firestarter, Jenner, Wolfhound, the Locust, and even the Commando would crush them every time through superior firepower. The only way they compare to the Locust is if they forgo the Jump Jets so they can bring a comparably weighty weapons payload.

The WSP-1W used by the Wolf's Dragoons uses 6 lasers, just like some variants of the Locust, Jenner and Wolfhound.

Only the Firestarter holds the firepower advantage being able to mount 8 lasers.

MechaBattler, on 19 December 2016 - 05:18 PM, said:

They need to just move up the timeline. Dip a toe in the pool of new weapons by introducing only new IS weapons that are for the most part crappier versions of the Clan ones. And most importantly, Light Fusion Engines. It's still inferior to a clan XL. But with perhaps a critical hit increase or something, it might be enough, without just turning everything the same.

And how do we imagine IS Omnis are going to fair with inferior weapons? If nothing else, give them all the truly new stuff. Course it's the holidays, so PGI probably won't be doing much major until the new year comes in.

I've been told that supposedly PGI can't add the remaining IS weapons needed to bring them up to tech equivalency with the Clans, which would then allow them both to be brought closer to actual tech balance.

[MechaBattler]

Alan Davion, on 19 December 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

The WSP-1W used by the Wolf's Dragoons uses 6 lasers, just like some variants of the Locust, Jenner and Wolfhound.

Only the Firestarter holds the firepower advantage being able to mount 8 lasers.



I've been told that supposedly PGI can't add the remaining IS weapons needed to bring them up to tech equivalency with the Clans, which would then allow them both to be brought closer to actual tech balance.

Is it a rights issue?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alan Davion, on 19 December 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

I've been told that supposedly PGI can't add the remaining IS weapons needed to bring them up to tech equivalency with the Clans, which would then allow them both to be brought closer to actual tech balance.

Can't is the wrong word, won't is the accurate word.

[Gyrok]

Ultimax, on 19 December 2016 - 03:02 PM, said:

Honest question, as I don't actually know.

What IS mechs are possible at the 75 ton & 100 ton weight points that could be strong enough?

Requirements:

• Good hitboxes
  
• High mounts
  
• High engine cap (350 to 375)
  
• Ability to boat energy or ballistics or a good combination of both on a variant

Other bonus items:

• Jump Jets

Basically, I'd like a 75T Warhammer (hitboxes & loadouts) with a 375 engine cap, torso mounts like a Quickdraw or Grasshopper 5P and Jump Jets.


If it had all of that, it probably wouldn't even need quirks to compete.

75 Tons:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bandersnatch ***

http://www.sarna.net...nce_(BattleMech)

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dragon_Fire ***

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Falconer

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Flashman ***

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hammerhands ***

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lao_Hu ***

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Maelstrom ***

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Onslaught

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Penetrator ***

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rakshasa

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thanatos ***

http://www.sarna.net...ama_(BattleMech) ***

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/War_Dog

100 Tons:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Annihilator ***

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bane_(Kraken) ***

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Berserker ***

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Devastator ***

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Grand_Titan

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Marauder_II ***

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Pillager ***

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thunder_Hawk ***

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Vanquisher

*** Denotes chassis of particular noteworthy mention

[Gas Guzzler]

I think the Thunder Hawk could do some interesting stuff... 6 AC5, 3 UAC5 2 AC5, Dual Gauss, dual ER PPC (in the shoulders though :/) all with an XL engine.

[Karl Marlow]

I think if you are wanting meta effective IS units you need to start looking at tanks.

[Y E O N N E]

Bandersnatch - is a knuckle-dragger. No-go.

Defiance - looks like it's a knuckle-dragger, too. Basically a 75 ton Cataphract. Meh.

Falconer - possibly, as a poptart.

Flashman - laser boat. Would be good, but we need more ballistic-energy combos in good mounts.

Hammerhands - Warhammer with ballistics in the arms. Mediocre.

Lao Hu - a 75 ton Roughneck (or rather, the Roughneck is a 65 ton Lao Hu). Wrong placement for the energy weapons and torso ballistic precludes Gauss with XL.

Malestrom - knuckledragger garbage.

Onslaught - looks promising as pure dakka, like the Black Widow.

Penetrator - like the Flashman.

Rakshasa - complete garbage, easy-to-hit side torsos with neither the cXL perks nor the option to remove protruding missile pods. The Marauder series does what it can do way better.

Thanatos - Awesome syndrome in every way except speed.

Toyama - already covered earlier in the thread.

War Dog - another knuckle-dragger...also belly guns.