234 replies to this topic

[kesmai]

What about a double pack:
Flea and Firemoth.
?
At their current pricing pgi will not sell many 20t mechs. Why not getting 2 for the same price?

[RestosIII]

Alan Davion, on 21 December 2016 - 06:49 AM, said:

Keep in mind the Mad Cat Mk II is a different beast than the Flea though.

The Flea, really doesn't add anything new to the game. As I already pointed out, PGI's reasoning when they kept getting asked about the Flea was the Locust does everything the Flea does, and does it better.

The Mad Cat Mk II however, a lot of its variants rely on Tech Level 3 stuff that, 1, we don't have, and 2, might never have if PGI is unable, or unwilling to add into the game, stuff like hardened or reflective armor for instance that would reduce damage done by ballistic/missile or energy weapons respectively.

Because no one can tell what weapons everyone is using, outside of playing with members of a unit where you actually talk to everyone and get to know your mechs and weapons, you don't know what you'll be facing on the enemy team.

So for example since energy weapons are generally the most prevalent and easy to use, high tier experienced players would probably only equip reflective armor in order to reduce the damage they receive.

However, lets say a new player started the game and they see "hardened armor" as a choice without really looking at the tool tips to learn about it. Coming from other games like CoD, BF or whatever, they might think hardened armor reduces the damage from everything.

They'd certainly be close, reducing damage by ACs and LRM/SRM, but once they run into someone running beam spam, they might find their armor evaporating like boiling water.

They'd get all pissed off and come crying onto the forums. "I equipped hardened armor cause that's what I did in CoD, but this beam spammer ripped me apart! Buff armor! Nerf lasers!" and the like.

Only to then get shouted down by the veterans for being too quick to equip the armor without reading exactly what it does. At which point this new player might take that advice to heart, but is more likely to just quit the game altogether.

So, I don't know about you, but I'd rather PGI just wait until they figure out how to finally add Tech Level 3 stuff to the game, and then replace all the "P" variant mechs they have in the game know with the appropriate variant the P variant was standing in for.

That is if PGI is ever able to actually figure out how to add Tech Level 3.

Couple of things. First of all, you're thinking of reactive armor. Hardened armor is just heavy AF but boosted standard armor, basically. And if you want to quote mechs that rely on later tech, look at, oh, say, the MAD IIC. It got added despite most of its canon variants using tech not ingame. So the only thing "preventing" the Mad Cat MK2 from getting added is its production date scaring people.

Anyways, the Flea. It can mount MASC. That's something I'd really want to see. There's also the hilarious 15 ton version that had JJs. So yes, the Flea would add something to the game. It just might not be what you personally want.

[cazidin]

Alan Davion, on 21 December 2016 - 06:49 AM, said:

Keep in mind the Mad Cat Mk II is a different beast than the Flea though.

The Flea, really doesn't add anything new to the game. As I already pointed out, PGI's reasoning when they kept getting asked about the Flea was the Locust does everything the Flea does, and does it better.

The Mad Cat Mk II however, a lot of its variants rely on Tech Level 3 stuff that, 1, we don't have, and 2, might never have if PGI is unable, or unwilling to add into the game, stuff like hardened or reflective armor for instance that would reduce damage done by ballistic/missile or energy weapons respectively.

Because no one can tell what weapons everyone is using, outside of playing with members of a unit where you actually talk to everyone and get to know your mechs and weapons, you don't know what you'll be facing on the enemy team.

So for example since energy weapons are generally the most prevalent and easy to use, high tier experienced players would probably only equip reflective armor in order to reduce the damage they receive.

However, lets say a new player started the game and they see "hardened armor" as a choice without really looking at the tool tips to learn about it. Coming from other games like CoD, BF or whatever, they might think hardened armor reduces the damage from everything.

They'd certainly be close, reducing damage by ACs and LRM/SRM, but once they run into someone running beam spam, they might find their armor evaporating like boiling water.

They'd get all pissed off and come crying onto the forums. "I equipped hardened armor cause that's what I did in CoD, but this beam spammer ripped me apart! Buff armor! Nerf lasers!" and the like.

Only to then get shouted down by the veterans for being too quick to equip the armor without reading exactly what it does. At which point this new player might take that advice to heart, but is more likely to just quit the game altogether.

So, I don't know about you, but I'd rather PGI just wait until they figure out how to finally add Tech Level 3 stuff to the game, and then replace all the "P" variant mechs they have in the game know with the appropriate variant the P variant was standing in for.

That is if PGI is ever able to actually figure out how to add Tech Level 3.

To counter your point about CoD players. They'd very likely get bored of and leave the game, as they do now, with or without hardened armor or new equipment and weapons. You should NEVER avoid depth in a game just because it might scare off a new player - who doesn't or would never read the tooltip. Teach the players who're interested in learning, but do not hold the hand of players who are not.

Also. The Flea is a mediocre™ mech and I would rather a GOOD light mech be introduced than that. We get only a select few light packs. Let's make them count.

Edited by cazidin, 21 December 2016 - 07:06 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

kesmai, on 21 December 2016 - 06:59 AM, said:

What about a double pack:
Flea and Firemoth.
?
At their current pricing pgi will not sell many 20t mechs. Why not getting 2 for the same price?

'Mechs cost about the same to develop no matter what weight class they are.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 21 December 2016 - 07:12 AM.

[CK16]

Fire Flight! Firemoth and Fire Falcon?!

[Widowmaker1981]

Just saying, they should not release the Piranha.

Its basically not possible to prevent stacking identical heatless weapons exponentially increasing their effectiveness, and as such in any balance where 4xMGs is anything other than complete crap, 12xMGs will be OMGWTFOP. It might be ammo limited, but i dont want to see a 20 ton mech dropping an Atlas in 3-4 seconds, ever.

[Alan Davion]

RestosIII, on 21 December 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:

Couple of things. First of all, you're thinking of reactive armor. Hardened armor is just heavy AF but boosted standard armor, basically. And if you want to quote mechs that rely on later tech, look at, oh, say, the MAD IIC. It got added despite most of its canon variants using tech not ingame. So the only thing "preventing" the Mad Cat MK2 from getting added is its production date scaring people.

Anyways, the Flea. It can mount MASC. That's something I'd really want to see. There's also the hilarious 15 ton version that had JJs. So yes, the Flea would add something to the game. It just might not be what you personally want.

Okay, thanks for correcting that. I haven't touched MW4 in ages which is the only game I know of that used alternate armor types. So I really only remembered reflective and hardened armor. MW3 probably used alternate armors, but I never played that so I can't really comment on it.

As far as the Flea goes, I'm not against it being added, but I'm not all up in arms for it being added either. With MWO focusing so highly on damage as the "skill metric", there's really almost no reason for the light mechs to exist in the game due to their roles as scouts. Hit and run skirmishers they do okay as, but they're simply not rewarded enough for that.

cazidin, on 21 December 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:

To counter your point about CoD players. They'd very likely get bored of and leave the game, as they do now, with or without hardened armor or new equipment and weapons. You should NEVER avoid depth in a game just because it might scare off a new player - who doesn't or would never read the tooltip. Teach the players who're interested in learning, but do not hold the hand of players who are not.

Also. The Flea is a mediocre™ mech and I would rather a GOOD light mech be introduced than that. We get only a select few light packs. Let's make them count.

I'll admit the CoD player example was a "totally wild, worst case" example, but that's not to say that it's an impossible outcome, just an extremely unlikely one.

Mediocre when the game weights "skill" so heavily on damage and nothing else, yes. If light mechs were properly rewarded for skirting behind enemy lines and scouting enemy formations in order to allow the rest of the force to properly paste them, then yes I'd be all for more light mechs in the game.

Until such a time though, I really don't see the light mechs having a real place in the game aside from a few outliers like the Arctic Cheetah, Jenner IIC and Firestarter that can do Heavy mech levels of damage.

[RestosIII]

Alan Davion, on 21 December 2016 - 07:37 AM, said:

Firestarter...Heavy mech levels of damage.

Oh man, I needed a good laugh this morning. Thank you for that.

[Battlemaster56]

Widowmaker1981, on 21 December 2016 - 07:31 AM, said:

Just saying, they should not release the Piranha.

Its basically not possible to prevent stacking identical heatless weapons exponentially increasing their effectiveness, and as such in any balance where 4xMGs is anything other than complete crap, 12xMGs will be OMGWTFOP. It might be ammo limited, but i dont want to see a 20 ton mech dropping an Atlas in 3-4 seconds, ever.

[Tordin]

kesmai, on 21 December 2016 - 06:59 AM, said:

What about a double pack:
Flea and Firemoth.
?
At their current pricing pgi will not sell many 20t mechs. Why not getting 2 for the same price?

So much this!
I want em both. NO excuse to not add em when possible improvements to the engine will happen (or even a full on Unreal replacement), removing and/ or lessening the speedlimit issue.

[RestosIII]

Battlemaster56, on 21 December 2016 - 07:45 AM, said:

A man truly believing in the 3 second Piranha, apparently. At least the Clans hold the title to that fear mongering now.

[Widowmaker1981]

RestosIII, on 21 December 2016 - 07:47 AM, said:

A man truly believing in the 3 second Piranha, apparently. At least the Clans hold the title to that fear mongering now.

So that was slightly hyperbolic, sorry. However:

12 dps. forever until it runs out of ammo. Plus crit damage.. so, lets take a Dire or Kodiak, which is going to have 10 or less back armour and 62 IS for the CT. Thats 72 total HP, so 6 seconds, assuming its pristine and there are no crits, from the crit guns.. so realistically killing 100 ton mechs for 0 heat in 5 or less seconds.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 21 December 2016 - 07:55 AM.

[Battlemaster56]

RestosIII, on 21 December 2016 - 07:47 AM, said:

A man truly believing in the 3 second Piranha, apparently. At least the Clans hold the title to that fear mongering now.

I can take that title anytime.

Widowmaker1981, on 21 December 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

So that was slightly hyperbolic, sorry. However:

12 dps. forever until it runs out of ammo. Plus crit damage.. so, lets take a Dire or Kodiak, which is going to have 10 or less back armour and 62 IS for the CT. Thats 72 total HP, so 6 seconds, assuming its pristine and there are no crits, from the crit guns.. so realistically killing 100 ton mechs for 0 heat in 5 or less seconds.

Im not a clannner ffs. im not either side.

I mean unless the assualt is beyond the level of potato then that would be true, but mostly the assault pilot try to save his back at all cost and trying to twist as much damage as possible.

[Alan Davion]

RestosIII, on 21 December 2016 - 07:40 AM, said:

Oh man, I needed a good laugh this morning. Thank you for that.

It is possible. It's extremely unlikely of course, but it is possible.

[Widowmaker1981]

Battlemaster56, on 21 December 2016 - 07:55 AM, said:

I can take that title anytime.


I mean unless the assualt is beyond the level of potato then that would be true, but mostly the assault pilot try to save his back at all cost and trying to twist as much damage as possible.

Assuming equal player skill, one would assume that the light pilot could stay behind the back of the Dire, especially.#

Sorry, i am biased here i should admit - i dont like lights (im not saying i think they are OP, just that i dont like the playstyle), and i think PGI should just admit tonnage = effectiveness.

[cazidin]

Widowmaker1981, on 21 December 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

So that was slightly hyperbolic, sorry. However:

12 dps. forever until it runs out of ammo. Plus crit damage.. so, lets take a Dire or Kodiak, which is going to have 10 or less back armour and 62 IS for the CT. Thats 72 total HP, so 6 seconds, assuming its pristine and there are no crits, from the crit guns.. so realistically killing 100 ton mechs for 0 heat in 5 or less seconds.

PGI alt account detected! Labelling opinion irrelevant! Exterminate with extreme prejudice! Do NOT fear the 6 MG spider or the 12 MG Piranha, unless you're PGI, NGNG or a coward! Exterminate, exterminate! For the glory of the Daleks!

[Y E O N N E]

Widowmaker1981, on 21 December 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

So that was slightly hyperbolic, sorry. However:

12 dps. forever until it runs out of ammo. Plus crit damage.. so, lets take a Dire or Kodiak, which is going to have 10 or less back armour and 62 IS for the CT. Thats 72 total HP, so 6 seconds, assuming its pristine and there are no crits, from the crit guns.. so realistically killing 100 ton mechs for 0 heat in 5 or less seconds.

Locust 3S does 17-18 DPS depending on the presence of a laser. Contrary to what Tarogato mentioned earlier, it isn't actually heat-limited. At least, not enough for it to matter in a fight. You can also reasonably squeeze 300-350 rounds into it. You don't see it terrorizing the game, though.

[Bandilly]

Widowmaker1981, on 21 December 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

So that was slightly hyperbolic, sorry. However:

12 dps. forever until it runs out of ammo. Plus crit damage.. so, lets take a Dire or Kodiak, which is going to have 10 or less back armour and 62 IS for the CT. Thats 72 total HP, so 6 seconds, assuming its pristine and there are no crits, from the crit guns.. so realistically killing 100 ton mechs for 0 heat in 5 or less seconds.

Actually 3 seconds is about right, with machine gun critical rate and damage they do around 2.5 times as much damage vs internals. So 1 second to strip that 10 rear armor and around 2 seconds to do 62 internal damage.

[Metus regem]

MalaVolpe, on 21 December 2016 - 01:37 AM, said:

If they fixed the speed issue, does that mean the Flea will FINALLY make an appearance?

Why do people want the bad Locust so much.... I mean it really is a bad Locust, looks like a Locust, moves like a Locust, but needs MASC to get to Locust like speeds...

[TercieI]

Metus regem, on 21 December 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

Why do people want the bad Locust so much.... I mean it really is a bad Locust, looks like a Locust, moves like a Locust, but needs MASC to get to Locust like speeds...

It has an engine bigger than a LCT's maximum (200>190) before MASC. You may not understand the appeal, but your facts are just wrong on speeds.

Edited by TercieI, 21 December 2016 - 08:13 AM.