83 replies to this topic

[Snowbluff]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 December 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

He's probably typing from a phone.

It means the TBR is a 'Mech with mediocre geometry that is only viable because of cXL mechanics and other Clan equipment, aka "crutched up by Clan Tech."

Also, "up-engine their Night Gyr," since it has superior geometry to the TBR, it would be a much better 'Mech than the TBR full-stop if it could run as fast.

Right on the money. Sorry I'm not so good with typing on the phone with gloves on. ^.^"

MacClearly, on 23 December 2016 - 08:39 PM, said:

Then there are all the mechs that are fantastic. Timby's, Ebon's, etc... to remove the fixed equipment on these? Direwhale and Warhawk would be insanely over the top OP if you didn't have at least some restrictions....

Yeah, just drop the remaining locked equipment. I'd even go as far as to say let the fixed sltos be moved instead. The TBR-S pods are good, but are very hampered by the limited slots. You can't fit anything in them despite the hard points.

[MacClearly]

Snowbluff, on 23 December 2016 - 10:07 PM, said:

Right on the money. Sorry I'm not so good with typing on the phone with gloves on. ^.^"

Yeah, just drop the remaining locked equipment. I'd even go as far as to say let the fixed sltos be moved instead. The TBR-S pods are good, but are very hampered by the limited slots. You can't fit anything in them despite the hard points.

Um...so you are saying to do this why? Because the mech is under performing? Are you being serious or are you trolling? Really hard to tell here.

[Snowbluff]

MacClearly, on 23 December 2016 - 10:42 PM, said:

Um...so you are saying to do this why? Because the mech is under performing? Are you being serious or are you trolling? Really hard to tell here.

I'm saying that TBR is overrated. Still fantastic, just overestimated. As its been said, the geometry is mediocre at best.

In the end, the meta builds will still be the meta builds. Neither of the "best"/meta side torso pods even have locked equipment, just locked slots, and even then the only improvement that could be made using those pods would be slotting in a UAC20 over a Gauss Rifle, which isn't really a strong option anyway. The option to swap stuff out of the other pods would give variety and not power, so your concerns about performance is a non-issue.

Edited by Snowbluff, 23 December 2016 - 10:49 PM.

[MacClearly]

Snowbluff, on 23 December 2016 - 10:49 PM, said:

I'm saying that TBR is overrated. Still fantastic, just overestimated. As its been said, the geometry is mediocre at best.

In the end, the meta builds will still be the meta builds. Neither of the "best"/meta side torso pods even have locked equipment, just locked slots, and even then the only improvement that could be made using those pods would be slotting in a UAC20 over a Gauss Rifle, which isn't really a strong option anyway. The option to swap stuff out of the other pods would give variety and not power, so your concerns about performance is a non-issue.

Oh, a non-issue cause you say so and that's that?

Calling absolute bull on that one. PGI actually had to nerf the thing so giving a **** ton of more options for mounts and heatsinks is not on the agenda. You may not like it or think I am right (which I am) but PGI has the data and you will never see them unlocking the Timby. It is not going to happen. Not ever. Not even a little bit. There is no chance.

[Juodas Varnas]

As an IS loyalist that doesn't pilot Clan mechs (and never will), i thought i'd chime into the discussion.

I fully support unlocking locked-equipment, Endo/Ferro swapping (not engine-swapping though, unless we're talking about just STD/XL swapping). I believe, that it wouldn't affect IS vs Clan balance much (if at all), because all of the outliers that make me go "CLANS OP" are either Battlemechs (which are capable of full customization) or are Optimized Omnimechs (that don't require full customization).
This change would only IMPROVE upon the inter-Clan mech balance. Make the sh*tty ones, less sh*tty.

My 2 CN9s.

[Snowbluff]

MacClearly, on 24 December 2016 - 12:16 AM, said:

Oh, a non-issue cause you say so and that's that?

Calling absolute bull on that one. PGI actually had to nerf the thing so giving a **** ton of more options for mounts and heatsinks is not on the agenda. You may not like it or think I am right (which I am) but PGI has the data and you will never see them unlocking the Timby. It is not going to happen. Not ever. Not even a little bit. There is no chance.

See, this is exactly what I mean. Some people just think the mech is god mode and that means it shouldn't get options for weaker builds. You don't even know how much time has passed, how many nerfs the clan tech has received since then, do you? You're working on a misconception. Garbage in, garbage out.

What are you afraid of? That someone might combine SRM6 with AC2 in their builds? I can't think of a single build that is stronger than the builds it can do now. Double Ballastics in the ST are possible with the hero pods, so it's not like there is even an inkling of an improvement of the Chassis' power.

[Y E O N N E]

Snowbluff, on 24 December 2016 - 06:20 AM, said:

See, this is exactly what I mean. Some people just think the mech is god mode and that means it shouldn't get options for weaker builds. You don't even know how much time has passed, how many nerfs the clan tech has received since then, do you? You're working on a misconception. Garbage in, garbage out.

What are you afraid of? That someone might combine SRM6 with AC2 in their builds? I can't think of a single build that is stronger than the builds it can do now. Double Ballastics in the ST are possible with the hero pods, so it's not like there is even an inkling of an improvement of the Chassis' power.

Double Gauss TBR gets stronger. Actually, if you can move the JJs around, even the Gauss+2xPPC build gets stronger.

Not sure I like that idea. The TBR and NTG already have a stranglehold on high-alpha pop-tarting.

[Snowbluff]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 December 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

Double Gauss TBR gets stronger. Actually, if you can move the JJs around, even the Gauss+2xPPC build gets stronger.

Are the JJs an improvemnt or a detriment? Is the poptart op or not?

Edited by Snowbluff, 24 December 2016 - 11:33 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Snowbluff, on 24 December 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

You can already do those with the Hero pods. There is no improvement.

No you can't. You can't jump without the S-pods. If you can option JJs around on the S pods, you can actually place both the Gauss and the PPCs into the torso, giving you all high-mounts. Right now, the Gauss has to go in an arm, which you can't strip for efficiency.

It's not a trivial change.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 24 December 2016 - 11:36 AM.

[Snowbluff]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 December 2016 - 11:35 AM, said:

No you can't. You can't jump without the S-pods. If you can option JJs around on the S pods, you can actually place both the Gauss and the PPCs into the torso, giving you all high-mounts. Right now, the Gauss has to go in an arm, which you can't strip for efficiency.

It's not a trivial change.

1) That's not really a high mount. It's below the cockpit, which is already low, and the enrgy points on the build are high.
2) TBR-A It occurs to me not EVERYONE actually uses TBR.

Edited by Snowbluff, 24 December 2016 - 11:49 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Snowbluff, on 24 December 2016 - 11:49 AM, said:

1) That's not really a high mount. It's below the cockpit, which is already low, and the enrgy points on the build are high.
2) TBR-A It occurs to me not EVERYONE actually uses TBR.

1.) Higher than an arm. The WHM's ballistics are considered high but they, too, are below the cockpit.

2.) Still can't jump. It occurs to me that not EVERYONE actually knows how to read.

[Snowbluff]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 December 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

1.) Higher than an arm. The WHM's ballistics are considered high but they, too, are below the cockpit.

2.) Still can't jump. It occurs to me that not EVERYONE actually knows how to read.

It can jump with a CT S torso. So which is it? Is the hardpoint OP, or the maybe adding a second jet? And how is poptart op on the TBR is the arm hardpoint is so bad? Either way, I'd be fine with the JJs being exclusive to the pod, I just want the option to get rid of them.

Whamie's ballastic slots and cockpit are better positions. The relative position is similiar, but they are higher on the WHM, and the top cockpit is a pretty huge boon. And god damn, another mech I use a lot.

Edited by Snowbluff, 24 December 2016 - 12:04 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Snowbluff, on 24 December 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

It can jump with a CT S torso. So which is it? Is the hardpoint OP, or the maybe adding a second jet? And how is poptart op on the TBR is the arm hardpoint is so bad?

Whamie's ballastic slots and cockpit are better positions. The relative position is similiar, but they are higher on the WHM, and the top cockpit is a pretty huge boon. And god damn, another mech I use a lot.

Oh yes, one JJ in the TBR-S CT, versus the three or four you would get if you could take the JJs and shove them over to the LT, where the smaller twin cERPPC leave plenty of room. Heck, I only have to move one JJ to get Gauss into the RT.

That the pop-tart TBR right now is really more of a corner peaker is what allows the Night Gyr to have its own role as a proper pop-tart. If you change the hard-point layout on the pop-tart TBR and retain/improve its jump, suddenly the much slower Night Gyr is not as attractive for this role. That 17 kph is also non-trivial.

The WHM has less overhead material above the cockpit, but it also can't poptart and, as such, is much slower getting back into cover. It ends up a wash in terms of exposure if the TBR gets all its pop-tarting guns into the torsos. That said, the two do different things. One of them is a raw DPS machine (or it should be...un-nerf IS (U)AC/5 heat plz), the other is a poke-warrior.

[Void Angel]

The problem that needs to be solved here first is Clantech. What you're seeing in the disparities between some Clan Battlemechs and some Clan Omnimechs (things like the Ebon Jaguar are still very competitive) is the difference in absolute power between the tech bases when a Clan Battlemech has the hardpoints to take advantage of that power. That power was concealed by the Omnimech limitations (by design, if you recall) but PGI apparently felt that trading the ability to swap around hardpoints would balance Clan Battlemechs against the superior customization rules of that 'mech type.

They were wrong.

But even so, this thread is assuming the wrong question. Or at least a less important one: "should Battlemechs outperform Omnimechs (or vice versa?)" The answer is obviously no, as the OP claims. Yet a better question - the overriding problem with Faction Warfare right now - is, "should Clan Battlemechs (and omnimechs) completely outclass their Inner Sphere counterparts? The answer to that is an obvious, resounding, 'NO."

In order to properly fix both of these issues, we have to balance the tech bases against each other again. If we do not do that first, unlocking Omnimech equipment only exacerbates the issue.

[Snowbluff]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 December 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

Oh yes, one JJ in the TBR-S CT, versus the three or four you would get if you could take the JJs and shove them over to the LT, where the smaller twin cERPPC leave plenty of room. Heck, I only have to move one JJ to get Gauss into the RT.

That the pop-tart TBR right now is really more of a corner peaker is what allows the Night Gyr to have its own role as a proper pop-tart. If you change the hard-point layout on the pop-tart TBR and retain/improve its jump, suddenly the much slower Night Gyr is not as attractive for this role. That 17 kph is also non-trivial.

The WHM has less overhead material above the cockpit, but it also can't poptart and, as such, is much slower getting back into cover. It ends up a wash in terms of exposure if the TBR gets all its pop-tarting guns into the torsos. That said, the two do different things. One of them is a raw DPS machine (or it should be...un-nerf IS (U)AC/5 heat plz), the other is a poke-warrior.

Well I think the Night Gyr will be better iwth my change anyway. It has more Jets, more pod space, better use of the space if the locked structure and slots would be moves (seriosuly, that mech hurts from that). I did suggest letting only the jets get put in pods that support them.

The Warhammer can do poke or DPS warrior. I have a 2 AC5 2 PPC build for poke, but I also have a Black Widow for pure dakka. I have a 7 for crying myself to sleep, too.

[Y E O N N E]

Snowbluff, on 24 December 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

Well I think the Night Gyr will be better iwth my change anyway. It has more Jets, more pod space, better use of the space if the locked structure and slots would be moves (seriosuly, that mech hurts from that). I did suggest letting only the jets get put in pods that support them.

The Night Gyr is not hurting at all right now. It's better than the WHM at DPS, it's as good as or better than the TBR at poke. If you like LRMs, it can do those, too. It's meh at laser vomit, but it will always be meh at laser vomit because it's way slower than the competition. But who cares, vomit isn't the meta anyway and not all 'Mechs can or should be good at all things.

There's nothing more you can do to improve the things the NTG is already good at...which is a lot of things.

Quote

The Warhammer can do poke or DPS warrior. I have a 2 AC5 2 PPC build for poke, but I also have a Black Widow for pure dakka. I have a 7 for crying myself to sleep, too.

Yes, it can do both, but pop-tarts are better at poke every time because of the reduced exposure. More exposure + isXL + less damage per shot all conspire to make the WHM an inferior poke machine to the TBR-tart.

I mean, I run 2x AC/5 and 2x PPC on a MAD-5M pop-tart. Even that is a superior poke machine to the WHM. It is not, however, comparable to the TBR. 12 kph slower, isXL, doesn't have the same range, no splash damage.

[Void Angel]

As for whether or not the Clans are overpowered - I'm just going to leave this here. Dane drives his points home hard at times, but his analysis is spot-on and supported by all the evidence we have.

[Snowbluff]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 December 2016 - 12:20 PM, said:

The Night Gyr is not hurting at all right now. It's better than the WHM at DPS, it's as good as or better than the TBR at poke. If you like LRMs, it can do those, too. It's meh at laser vomit, but it will always be meh at laser vomit because it's way slower than the competition. But who cares, vomit isn't the meta anyway and not all 'Mechs can or should be good at all things.

There's nothing more you can do to improve the things the NTG is already good at...which is a lot of things.




Yes, it can do both, but pop-tarts are better at poke every time because of the reduced exposure. More exposure + isXL + less damage per shot all conspire to make the WHM an inferior poke machine to the TBR-tart.

I mean, I run 2x AC/5 and 2x PPC on a MAD-5M pop-tart. Even that is a superior poke machine to the WHM. It is not, however, comparable to the TBR. 12 kph slower, isXL, doesn't have the same range, no splash damage.

"DPS" is a a bit of a misleading stat for clan dakka, because of the grossly inferior (albeit light) cUAC compared to PPFLD IS ACs with quirks. As you've said, the WHM isn't quite in the same class (different tech and is even lighter), but both the NIght Gyr and TBR have suboptimal engine ratings. The night gyr could stand to be faster, and the TBR could stand to be slower, and both would be better mechs for it. Some might say 12 KPH more, others might says several tons too much.

Now for poke, the choice of poke damage is going to differ on how you build your WHM. You can do Gauss and 2 PPC for the same damage (splash is usually a waste on cERPPC) on a Warhammer, and I don't know why that isn't the suggested build for poke, except for maybe the 2 AC5 are better up close. The same goes for the range. The PPC velocity on a WHM is higher so, it's easier to clip enemies at greater distances, and they are cooler. However, you can pick up the ERPPC for more heat for better range (which is my personal preference), and do the Gauss Rifle with that as well (which would be light than 2 AC 5 as well, letting you bring up to nearly the TBR's speed).

IS mechs tend to have a certain je nais se quoi. I can't point to any one thing to tell you how or why my IS mechs do just as well as my Clan rough equivalents. They just kind of do. I used to turn my nose up at them, spoiled by my TBR's speed, but I've learned to deal with less speed to get a good mech going.

Edited by Snowbluff, 24 December 2016 - 01:14 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Snowbluff, on 24 December 2016 - 01:13 PM, said:

"DPS" is a a bit of a misleading stat for clan dakka, because of the grossly inferior (albeit light) cUAC compared to PPFLD IS ACs with quirks. As you've said, the WHM isn't quite in the same class (different tech and is even lighter), but both the NIght Gyr and TBR have suboptimal engine ratings. The night gyr could stand to be faster, and the TBR could stand to be slower, and both would be better mechs for it. Some might say 12 KPH more, others might says several tons too much.

"Grossly inferior" is a...gross...exaggeration. The sheer amount of shells hitting the target more than compensates for the lack of pinpoint. It doesn't matter that you don't get the super precision because the target is essentially unable to respond. His only options are to retreat or be annihilated. If anything, the IS option is the inferior one because they weigh more than a Gauss rifle and do less damage together, and you can't boat them very well. 4x AC/5 is Assault-grade firepower from the IS perspective, but is just Heavy-grade from the Clan one.

As for sub-optimal engines, I don't think so. Not when you examine what "optimal" really means. If you are looking at it from the perspective of maximizing performance in the MechLab then, yes, the engine is sub-optimal. If you look at it in terms of battlefield performance, where both hold the crowns despite having "sub-optimal" engines, then can you really say the engine is sub-optimal? I don't think you can. There are zero more optimal Heavy options for pop-tarting or dakka and it is doubtful there ever will be. Even for laser vomit, there aren't really any more optimal options than the TBR. At best, a 'Mech can only match it.

Quote

Now for poke, the choice of poke damage is going to differ on how you build your WHM. You can do Gauss and 2 PPC for the same damage (splash is usually a waste on cERPPC) on a Warhammer, and I don't know why that isn't the suggested build for poke, except for maybe the 2 AC5 are better up close. The same goes for the range. The PPC velocity on a WHM is higher so, it's easier to clip enemies at greater distances, and they are cooler. However, you can pick up the ERPPC for more heat for better range (which is my personal preference), and do the Gauss Rifle with that as well (which would be light than 2 AC 5 as well, letting you bring up to nearly the TBR's speed).

You would never do Gauss + 2xPPC on the WHM because chance for the rifle to explode is too much of a liability with isXL. Even if it doesn't kill you due to structure quirks, it takes its health down so far that you can't effectively fight any more. A single brush or even cERPPC splash will kill you. Your best poke will always be some form of 2x (U)AC/5 plus 2x PPCs. The range problem boils right down to ERPPC vs. standard PPC. Velocity helps you against agile targets but, IMHO, even Timberwolves are big and slow enough that nailing them with un-quirked PPCs is not terribly demanding.

And the ER PPC splash is actually a huge driver behind why Clan PPC snipers are better. Even if a Blackjack had cXL and cDHS and all of its current quirks, it would still be inferior to the HBK-IIC if it still had to take isERPPC.

Quote

IS mechs tend to have a certain je nais se quoi. I can't point to any one thing to tell you how or why my IS mechs do just as well as my Clan rough equivalents. They just kind of do. I used to turn my nose up at them, spoiled by my TBR's speed, but I've learned to deal with less speed to get a good mech going.

IS 'Mechs aren't necessarily garbage. If you are a competent pilot, and I think you are, you won't ever really notice any shortcomings in a Quick Play drop. It's just that the number of Clan-specific benefits that come into effect when you are either A.) playing at the edge of performance or B.) playing IS vs. Clan matches with even teams pushes them over.

Like, I don't really give a good god d*mn if somebody thinks his or her IS 'Mechs perform just as well as his or her Clan 'Mechs in QP. Those statistics have zero value; using my MLX stats in QP, you would conclude that it is a very good 'Mech, but it isn't...I'm just fighting unfairly in one way or another. Chassis balance and Tech balance are not problems in QP because there is such a huge spread in the range of player ability within a single match. But, when you pit 228th and SJR against each other with no-holds-barred, or when you pit them against each other as IS vs. Clans, all of the little deficiencies for both crop up and the IS ones are more damning than the Clan ones.

[Void Angel]

Exactly. Anecdotal experiences - anyone's anecdotal experiences including mine - are of extremely limited use. I can hammer people with my Shadowhawk 2H as much as I like, but in the Faction Play environment against players who are all (at least) as good as I am? The differences show through.

More tellingly, my Huntsmen can do anything my particular Shadowhawk build does, and do it better. Even comparing the maximum capacities of the chassis, the Huntsman is just better. Shadowhawks can be faster, but only at the cost of payload and fragility. Or they can be more durable with a Standard engine, but with mediocre guns and speed. I can get away with rofflestomping Clan Hunchback IICs and Novas in scouting missions, but that's because I'm a significantly better than average pilot, especially if I practice like I should. Mech the Dane's video in my earlier post lays it all out pretty well. I may want my Shadowhawk to be amongst the best 'mechs in its class; I may feel like it's extremely powerful - but while it isn't horrible, "best" just isn't in the cards.

I soloed a fresh Inner Sphere Assault 'mech in my Pakhet the other day, on top of the parking garage in Crimson Strait; I was able to move back and forth behind a tower and poke him to death with SRMs. That doesn't prove a gorram thing about the power of the chassis by itself - but it's significant that I cannot imagine doing that to the same 'mech in any Inner Sphere Medium chassis that I own.

Edited by Void Angel, 24 December 2016 - 02:09 PM.