258 replies to this topic

[-Ramrod-]

MischiefSC, on 18 January 2017 - 12:58 AM, said:

You mean using what works is better than using what doesn't work?

So if you build a shelf using a rock instead of a hammer, does that make you a great carpenter? Does it teach you better carpenter skills?

Or does it just make you a bad carpenter who doesn't understand how to use the right tools for the job?

There's nothing noble about making a poor choice in tools. It doesn't make you 'hardcore' or require more skill. It just limits your ability to apply skills to what you're trying to do.

There's no real profession where anyone is going to respect a choice to take poor tools to get work done, which is what we're talking about here. Skill and success in the game is how you play the match, winning or losing. The mech is the tool you bring. The mentality that somehow bringing bad tools makes you 'better' than people who bring good tools is pretty laughable on its face.

Nobody is going to be impressed by someone making poor choices in tools. What impresses people is the quality of work that you do. 'Meta builds' is just the name for 'the tools that work best'. It's that simple.

There's a difference between using what works and solely relying on a few weapons. If all you can do is use a certain build on a mech and do **** with any other build....it's lack of skill. I've done extremely well in unconventional builds. Now granted some people are better with certain weaponry. Kind of depends on your play style a bit too. But when your whole team uses 1 build and thats ALL they know how to do...sorry that's just a crutch. Meta is a crutch. An excuse to say "oh I'm only using what works." Yea...because you suck with everything else. Put up the exact same numbers in a different build and even perhaps a less popular chassis and THEN I might be impressed. And besides...it works against the game to overuse certain builds. Because weapons and mechs get nerfed to hell. Then y'all ***** about it because easy mode isn't quite as easy anymore. I laugh when certain mechs and weapons get nerfed. And then watch end-game numbers fall from certain "leet" people.

[VitriolicViolet]

'meta' is not a crutch anymore than MischiefMC's analogy was. so sure someone would be impressed if you built a house using a rock but more likely, like 99% of the time, anyone else trying that would be ridiculed for a stupid idea resulting in failure. so you might be able to run anything in the game and do well but 90% of the player base wont be able to do that that well. im sure you have seen the 'skill' level of some people.

As worked up as some people get about this topic its not about a rigid inflexible rule of 'use this and this and never that' but about all the people who complain about losing. im guessing either you dont lose much or dont care. But for those who either suck or are new there are some easy accessible builds which show them how to do well without as much of a struggle, one of the biggest complaints i see is 'ive been stomped'. easiest way to fix that is to encourage use and knowledge of 'meta'.
once people know what they are doing and what the enemy is likely to be doing then go nuts with whatever. But its, in my opinion, important foundational knowledge for this game.

[MischiefSC]

Ramrod AI, on 18 January 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

There's a difference between using what works and solely relying on a few weapons. If all you can do is use a certain build on a mech and do **** with any other build....it's lack of skill. I've done extremely well in unconventional builds. Now granted some people are better with certain weaponry. Kind of depends on your play style a bit too. But when your whole team uses 1 build and thats ALL they know how to do...sorry that's just a crutch. Meta is a crutch. An excuse to say "oh I'm only using what works." Yea...because you suck with everything else. Put up the exact same numbers in a different build and even perhaps a less popular chassis and THEN I might be impressed. And besides...it works against the game to overuse certain builds. Because weapons and mechs get nerfed to hell. Then y'all ***** about it because easy mode isn't quite as easy anymore. I laugh when certain mechs and weapons get nerfed. And then watch end-game numbers fall from certain "leet" people.

I don't know anyone who's a comp tier or just all around good player who can't put up great numbers on pretty much anything. Especially in QP.

You're just trying to justify using bad builds as though there was something noble about derping. There isn't. We all do other for giggles. However that's just derping, sure you can put up passable numbers in QP with anything. I've got a 4xsrm4, 2x LB10x Jag build and a 6MG, 2LP, 2srm6a KGC that I can put up good scores in QP.

Which means nothing because you can put up good scores in QP by just not choking on your own tongue.

FW is less forgiving as there's no MM and more units.

You're trying to imply that because a skilled carpenter with good tools does better work than a skilled carpenter with **** tools he's "using a crutch" - coincidentally while explaining your preference for bad tools.

No, bad tools are bad, good tools are good. Any of the top tier comp players could crush you just as much in non-meta. I don't recall the last time I saw any of the comp players in QP in a "comp" mech. Sometimes even LRMS. They still do well.

So you'll need a new excuse. Good tools are better than bad tools. Also if someone is consistently doing 2k damage every match in FW, a win/loss of 4+ and brings LRMs sometimes? Great! No issue - because they've already established they can drive wins. That's not what's being discussed here, it's people with crap performance bringing LRMs, which are inferior to begin with.

[Masochistic Trashcan Virtuoso]

if you are packing an urbie, dont bring LRMs. point.

[MovinTarget]

I won't go so far as to say lrms are "bad tools"

I would say that they are tools that are best utilized with a full suite of complentary tools where many others are stand alone tools whose efficacy is less dependent on complentary tools.

In other words, all thing being equal save for solo dropping vs coordinated team play... the disparity between poor performance and excellent performance is generally greater for lrm users than direct fire. In engrish, lurms benefit more from team play/coordination than most other weapons. Immensly so.

I am taking skill out of the discussion, lrms are not as effective in anyones hands unless teammates are pulling for you... so solo dropping is less efective with them than other weapons. Can you contribute? Could you win? Sure, why not... but you results will be less consistent because of the lack of control over variables in your drops.

Edited by MovinTarget, 18 January 2017 - 06:18 PM.

[Crockdaddy]

If you are sick of losing and getting your S**t kicked in by the clams then its time to grow up and learn how to use direct fire weapons. Even tight Narc / LRM team rarely win. All they do is build up big damage scores which you can ePeen about. Like it or not from a tier 2 level or above game play (using the tier as a reference of skill not MM factor) LRMs simply DO NOT WORK for winning actual matches.

Many mechs run ECM.
Most experienced players use this thing called cover.
Most players with LRMs don't have a light buddy helping with spotting.
Most players with LRMs don't have the target decay module.
Most LRMs splash all over a mech. Shoulder shots and CT shots is 95% of what you need to be shooting for with direct fire. LRMs it is RNG.

Streaks are also trash ... unless you get luck to find a friendly enemy light. Great damage scores little actual effect on the battle.

In your Tier 5 to Tier 3 drops feel free to use your LRMs.

[Starbomber109]

Crockdaddy, on 18 January 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

In your Tier 5 to Tier 3 drops feel free to use your LRMs.

I always assume CW is tier 1 to tier 0

[Hellskeep]

LRM's are apart of this game. Those who don't like them and don't lock targets isolate those players who utilized them as their playing style. I hear cry babies out there whine about a loss blaing lrm boats yet don't key in two factors. One is this is a team game. Two you need leader's to take point and control over the ranks, three lens divert enemies to seek cover where as they will focus on targets of opportunity. Four, not all players play at same skill levels and lrms allow players that love the Mechverse to play what they love to the point they might invest in play which keeps it running. By ignoring a section of players by being dunghats you adversely effect the future of the game.

[Starbomber109]

I mean, pressing R and locking targets helps out more than just LRM boats, it helps your whole team.

If you lock a target, and have his paper doll pulled up: Everyone else who locks that target gets the paper doll instantly! Which means they can see what component you've been trying to fry this whole time.

It also means the drop caller can hold down his overlay button and see the letters of all currently locked targets, and call out a focus.

As for LRMs...I'm not going to call them bad. Only "Situational" I have one rule if I have a shield and I'm running a group. If you brought LRMs, I'm not gonna stop you BUT you gotta bring your own tag, you gotta stay just behind the front line. LRMs can work fine if the LRM pilot isn't 'boating' and brought a mixture of weapons. However if you brought LRMs and didn't bring any way to counter ECM you're gonna have a bad day. That's why you need your own tag. (I'm not gonna narc for you ) It also means that in theroy, only one guy in the LRM lance has to hold a target, the rest can just unload on the target he tagged. Also LRMs are much harder to dodge in the 400m range. That's what I consider the 'optimal range' for IS LRMs, 300-400m is so close they can't dodge and they're gonna have to break LOS.

[MovinTarget]

Hellskeep, on 18 January 2017 - 10:43 PM, said:

LRM's are apart of this game. Those who don't like them and don't lock targets isolate those players who utilized them as their playing style. I hear cry babies out there whine about a loss blaing lrm boats yet don't key in two factors. One is this is a team game. Two you need leader's to take point and control over the ranks, three lens divert enemies to seek cover where as they will focus on targets of opportunity. Four, not all players play at same skill levels and lrms allow players that love the Mechverse to play what they love to the point they might invest in play which keeps it running. By ignoring a section of players by being dunghats you adversely effect the future of the game.

In all honesty, lrms did not lose the match, the pilots did... the reality is that there are a lot of pilots that can't operate at some nebulous "try hard" level. Whether it be hardware, physiological, or motivational walls.... some people are just not gonna get it. And thats fine.

I will agree that while lrms are a part of the game and can have a niche use, they are inferior in solo scenarios.

The solution in this thread is to basically shut up and group up... with likeminded individuals. The only reason someone complains about lrm pugs is because they are dropping with less than 12. Be fair, if they are "being lazy" by bringing lurms, are we not "being lazy" about filling out our groups if we have to pick up pugs?

We can drop now with *any* like-faction... Dane is setting up the FRR server as an IS hub... there really isn't an excuse anymore..

Edited by MovinTarget, 19 January 2017 - 05:22 AM.

[Crockdaddy]

Good players don't want to group with LRM players. Check to see how many LRM boats EVIL, KCOM, 228th, etc are running. Unless they are trolling you won't see it. You guys are blind however. I won't lead a drop which involves LRMs. It is a waste of my time to be immediately handicapped before a match even starts.

[MovinTarget]

Crockdaddy, on 19 January 2017 - 06:00 AM, said:

Good players don't want to group with LRM players. Check to see how many LRM boats EVIL, KCOM, 228th, etc are running. Unless they are trolling you won't see it. You guys are blind however. I won't lead a drop which involves LRMs. It is a waste of my time to be immediately handicapped before a match even starts.

This is what I'm saying.

If you are grouping up and don't want lurms... don't take lurm players...

One of 3 things will happen:
They'll form their own clique
They'll realized they are being ostracized for their choices and change
-or- New Thread: I love LURMS and no one wants to group up with me.

Now, for the other side:
If you solo drop or drop with a partial group, you do not have the right to dictate what others bring. If you invited incontinent gorillas into your home and then invited them to sit on your new couch, that's on you.

This is why I'm saying to group up with like-minded individuals. You'll not convince anyone here in the forums, and whether you care or not, you will actually be the one that gets judged, with your conduct here flavoring the perceptions of others.

I will not deny that save for the right circumstances, LRMs are not superior and in cases where a player is solo, they would be inferior.

To me.

For my situation.

Having an average computer, having good ping, having a decent grasp on the game mechanics.

There is little reason, for me, to run them, but unless I am in a group that has a "no lurms" policy, I wouldn't say jack if other brought them... unless they ask for suggestions on how to get better -OR- their actual BEHAVIOR was detrimental to our chances of winning.

I same behavior because the same kind of behavior that people blame on Lurmers can be pinned on snipers or traders... or really confused brawlers that don't know how to use their minimap.

All I'm saying is if you don't get your full 12 fleshed out, that one lone lurmer might be the difference between a drop and another 5 minutes of waiting. Rather wait? fine, fill out your 12 man while you're at it.

[MischiefSC]

Hellskeep, on 18 January 2017 - 10:43 PM, said:

LRM's are apart of this game. Those who don't like them and don't lock targets isolate those players who utilized them as their playing style. I hear cry babies out there whine about a loss blaing lrm boats yet don't key in two factors. One is this is a team game. Two you need leader's to take point and control over the ranks, three lens divert enemies to seek cover where as they will focus on targets of opportunity. Four, not all players play at same skill levels and lrms allow players that love the Mechverse to play what they love to the point they might invest in play which keeps it running. By ignoring a section of players by being dunghats you adversely effect the future of the game.

Not true. I help carry them to wins they would not have almost every single match. We all do. I wish they would bring a better loadout so they could help carry themselves but whatever.

I'm already having to work harder to make up for them as is, I'm not going to also try to put in that extra effort to make their poor mech design choices work too.

You're right - this is a team game. Absolutely. That's why threads like this exist, the frustration with people who show up to a team game and want carried because they don't want to put in the effort to get good with direct fire or they have this twisted sense of "I'm so snowflake" and refuse to use the best tools for the job on principle.

Some people have some issues that make using direct fire all but impossible. Health issues or the like. Totally understandable, not who we're talking to. Some people are new and have only seen other terribads in QP and erroneously believe LRMs are good "if you use them right". People who are new or haven't had a chance to learn to play well, again, I get that. Happy to help them.

Someone who has a choice, who selects FW (the most team centric part of the game) and then intentionally brings a bad deck (like LRMs) is trolling his team and faction. Why should we be obligated to put up with that, make allowances for it? Yes, obviously everyone can bring what they want. I could drop in an Atlas with no armor and 2 MGS. That would be me being a ****, because I know own better.

If someone is driving constant wins (3.0, 4.0 w/l, well over 1 KDR) then do what you're doing. If you're not, ffs, start taking steps to do what works, drives wins and helps your team.

If you want carried then do that in QP or expect that in FW the "please carry me" builds are not going to get you a lot of love.

[MischiefSC]

MovinTarget, on 19 January 2017 - 07:52 AM, said:

This is what I'm saying.

If you are grouping up and don't want lurms... don't take lurm players...

One of 3 things will happen:
They'll form their own clique
They'll realized they are being ostracized for their choices and change
-or- New Thread: I love LURMS and no one wants to group up with me.

Now, for the other side:
If you solo drop or drop with a partial group, you do not have the right to dictate what others bring. If you invited incontinent gorillas into your home and then invited them to sit on your new couch, that's on you.

This is why I'm saying to group up with like-minded individuals. You'll not convince anyone here in the forums, and whether you care or not, you will actually be the one that gets judged, with your conduct here flavoring the perceptions of others.

I will not deny that save for the right circumstances, LRMs are not superior and in cases where a player is solo, they would be inferior.

To me.

For my situation.

Having an average computer, having good ping, having a decent grasp on the game mechanics.

There is little reason, for me, to run them, but unless I am in a group that has a "no lurms" policy, I wouldn't say jack if other brought them... unless they ask for suggestions on how to get better -OR- their actual BEHAVIOR was detrimental to our chances of winning.

I same behavior because the same kind of behavior that people blame on Lurmers can be pinned on snipers or traders... or really confused brawlers that don't know how to use their minimap.

All I'm saying is if you don't get your full 12 fleshed out, that one lone lurmer might be the difference between a drop and another 5 minutes of waiting. Rather wait? fine, fill out your 12 man while you're at it.

Someone who plays well, carries and helps drive wins and has LRMs in their deck won't hear anything from me. Panic Button, a teammate of mine, LRMs like a boss.

That's a short list though and they only bring an LRM boat in their deck in the team. Not pugging. He's also often first through the gate and LRMs from the front and his boats all go 70-80. He also performs great with direct fire.

That's not what I see in pug matches day in and day out losing matches like gangbusters.

[Crockdaddy]

I've in the past directed one or two NS members whom couldn't aim or had an awful laptop to use LRM's ... but that was extreme. If LRM's were effective against Tier 1 type players then the game would be broken for Tier 5 to 2 players. The best way for LRMs to be more effective would be to speed them up and increase the RNG hits to the CT a bit more often but as I said this would almost certainly wreck the game for all the other Tiers where LRM's do in fact work well to so so.

Ideally if you have to bring LRMs ... 1 boat per 12 man ... in a medium designed for it. Stay 200 meters to the front so you are close enough to help Focus on the called target. Even then if the map is wrong it will still be tough but that is my best suggestion.

[Commander Kobold]

So at the end of the day all this babble is basically pointing towards LRMs needing buffs.

Edited by Commander Kobold, 19 January 2017 - 02:11 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Crockdaddy, on 19 January 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

I've in the past directed one or two NS members whom couldn't aim or had an awful laptop to use LRM's ... but that was extreme. If LRM's were effective against Tier 1 type players then the game would be broken for Tier 5 to 2 players. The best way for LRMs to be more effective would be to speed them up and increase the RNG hits to the CT a bit more often but as I said this would almost certainly wreck the game for all the other Tiers where LRM's do in fact work well to so so.

Ideally if you have to bring LRMs ... 1 boat per 12 man ... in a medium designed for it. Stay 200 meters to the front so you are close enough to help Focus on the called target. Even then if the map is wrong it will still be tough but that is my best suggestion.

Dat Hunchie 4J or Griffin. Horse archers FTW. Fast, stays close, rapid fire, durable and plays in the front.

A LRM assault... your team hates you. Every one of them. At least a 2 MGS Atlas can run around and soak fire and draw attention so the rest of the team can advance so you are not completely worthless for your tonnage. If someone has a LRM assault in their deck they waive the right to complain about losing.

[General Solo]

Commander Kobold, on 19 January 2017 - 02:10 PM, said:

So at the end of the day all this babble is basically pointing towards LRMs needing buffs.

I thinks they are saying we need you to perform guid in FW

And most people for a given skill level you will do better with direct fire weapons than lrms,

People with health, hardware or other issues that prevent guid aiming are the exception.

People who can perform are the exception, but they could most likely do better with direct fire as well, but since they get 2000 plus damage in a game, they can bring wot they want and drive wins

Bring a deck that can drive wins

Dats the vibe I get from this thread

Edit: I just wanna add a comment about the quotes buff lrms statement.
Any weapon that uses aim assist shouldn't be allowed to be the best weapon in the game.
In Battletech LRM boats were considered support platforms, not the tip of the spear.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 19 January 2017 - 07:05 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Pretty much. People not wanting to carry you so you don't have to put as much effort into playing well isn't a game design flaw - it's a personal one. PvP team v team game and all. If you come to FW then come to help Wenatchee with your team, not the attitude that you deserve to be carried or get handed wins because you showed up and everyone else should either carry you or shelter you from good players in good mechs.

[KinLuu]

Yes, to be a viable choice for higher tier gameplay, LRMs definately need buffs. Especially regarding their time to target.

But, if you do that, they might become the finger of god in lower tier gameplay.

Homing weapons are always tough to balance.