258 replies to this topic

[Dex Spero]

Robinson Crusher, on 25 January 2017 - 08:06 PM, said:

no one wants people who aren't in tier 1 playing in FW.

Sorry you've gotten that impression or been made to feel that way. I think our unit has a few Tier 1 players, but most are Tiers 2-4. We tend to be on in the evenings for EST (New York's time zone). If you see us [CBR1] online send us a message. We share our teamspeak address and are glad to have people drop with us. I'm fairly new to the unit myself so I'm not really in a position to explain the do's and don'ts of CBR1, but my experience is that they don't really care about your Tier or your match score or how quickly you get killed. They do care if you ignore the drop caller's commands and don't at least try to go where they ask, or if you are rude to teammates or opponents (poor sportsmanship will likely get you uninvited).

BTW, I rarely use LRMs but I have the same Tempest build but went the opposite way as you. I tried the 6ML, got frustrated with the heat and not being able to target Hellbringers, so I dropped it to 5 and added the tag in the center torso. I like the tag; it is mounted nice and high, it bypasses ECM, and it encourages me to choose targets in my line of sight which activates the benefits of the Artemis. Also, I use the tag as a reminder of the maximum range I have set myself for targetting. When I started playing I would fire at enemies who were almost at max range (for example, someone who is 950 meters away). This was almost always useless. The flight time on the LRMs was so long they could almost always find cover, and some of them simply ran out of range before the missiles hit. So I started disciplining myself to target enemies that were closer (I prefer 300-500 meters). One step in the right direction was never to fire at a target out of tag range, which still gives them lots of time but at least cuts down the extreme end of things. But that's what works for me and its great you have figured out what works for you.

Hope to see you on the battlefield. Till then, don't give up on FW. Its not just for Tier 1.

Edited by Dex Spero, 26 January 2017 - 09:44 AM.

[Dex Spero]

Psycho Cop, on 24 January 2017 - 06:16 AM, said:

For that I'd recommend only bringing one LRM mech maximum per dropdeck. And try to use as little tonnage for it as possible (a heavy medium or a lighter heavy).

An excellent post. My own frustration with both narc'ers and LRM mechs in FW is that they fulfill a certain, specific roles that require at least some coordination and teamwork to be effective but pilots often just drop with them on a whim. So I will be bold and add an item to your recommendations and hope I have not overstepped by doing so.

Recommendation: When bringing an LRM mech, ask your teammates (before the first drop) if they have a preference for when to use it. For example, sometimes a teammate will be using a narc'er in the 2nd drop and you will maximize your performance if you use your LRM mech while the narc'er is on the field. Likewise, teammates may already be planning on having 2 LRM mechs spawning during the first drop. Depending on the game mode, it might make sense for you to drop with yours at the same time (making 3), or it might make sense to wait because the team needs at least 10 mechs fulfilling other roles.

This is equally true for narc'ers. I can't tell you the number of times somebody announces "I've got narcs!" AFTER the match starts and I've thought "well, your narcs don't help the 11 of us who are using ERLL's and PPCs, but if you had told us 60 seconds ago we'd have LRMs for you".

So, as Psycho Cop said, 1) limit the number of LRM boats in your deck; 2) try to minimize the tonnage use. And my recommendation, 3) ask your teammates before the match starts if there is a specific time when your LRMer or narc'er will be most effective.

Edited by Dex Spero, 26 January 2017 - 09:46 AM.

[MovinTarget]

Dex Spero, on 26 January 2017 - 09:43 AM, said:

An excellent post. My own frustration with both narc'ers and LRM mechs in FW is that they fulfill a certain, specific roles that require at least some coordination and teamwork to be effective but pilots often just drop with them on a whim. So I will be bold and add an item to your recommendations and hope I have not overstepped by doing so.

Recommendation: When bringing an LRM mech, ask your teammates (before the first drop) if they have a preference for when to use it. For example, sometimes a teammate will be using a narc'er in the 2nd drop and you will maximize your performance if you use your LRM mech while the narc'er is on the field. Likewise, teammates may already be planning on having 2 LRM mechs spawning during the first drop. Depending on the game mode, it might make sense for you to drop with yours at the same time (making 3), or it might make sense to wait because the team needs at least 10 mechs fulfilling other roles.

This is equally true for narc'ers. I can't tell you the number of times somebody announces "I've got narcs!" AFTER the match starts and I've thought "well, your narcs don't help the 11 of us who are using ERLL's and PPCs, but if you had told us 60 seconds ago we'd have LRMs for you".

So, as Psycho Cop said, 1) limit the number of LRM boats in your deck; 2) try to minimize the tonnage use. And my recommendation, 3) ask your teammates before the match starts if there is a specific time when your LRMer or narc'er will be most effective.

To be fair, most lurmers won't announce their build(s) prior to dropping b/c they know the response they'll get... if they are part of a group, its different because they can coordinate a deck prior to dropping so they all know who's bringing narcs, tags, and baps...

Most solo players know they'll b1tched at all game so they don't want to hear about it before hand too.

[Robinson Crusher]

MischiefSC, on 25 January 2017 - 08:46 PM, said:

I would disagree that nobody wants someone who isn't T1.

If you've got system issues that keep you from being accurate at long range, that is what it is. LRMs may actually be one of the best weapons for you to use - and at the risk of giving the wrong people bad ideas, in the context of the situation you're in you might be able to absolutely wreck face in a Tempest - with the right build and playing the right way.

... lot's of cool and useful advice ...

Dex Spero, on 26 January 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

Sorry you've gotten that impression or been made to feel that way. I think our unit has a few Tier 1 players, but most are Tiers 2-4...
... more much appreciated encouragement...

Wow.

Thanks for all the help. After going through the cadet missions in a stock ERLL Raven (and scoring a total of single digit damage), I switched to an Atlas pack, since that's what my paper and pen role-playing character used, and really started learning. So slow and tanky brawling comes naturally. I never considered the XL as a bonus for using my missiles, especially with the "here I am please shoot me doors", but I will definitely give it a try.

I have the battlemaster hero (LPLs) and marauder hero mechs (seven ML and AC/20), but was waiting for the new skill system before putting any time into them. I'll definitely prioritize them, but I think the ac/20 will have to come out for an lbx 10... I can't see the ac/20 shot on screen when i shoot it. I do have some splat builds; a standard and streak version of the stormcrow and a griffon 2n with 4 srm4, 2 ML and a standard engine. My problem with them is that I like to get in deep in a brawl and occasionally (fatally) forget that I'm not in an Atlas. Thanks for the detailed advice.

... And for the invite. I haven't sought out a unit, well, because I'm used to being excellent at all forms of games and sucking is both unusual and embarrassing. Also my schedule is currently unpredictable. But your group sounds like a great bunch of guys. When I finally make tier 4 I'll drop you a line. Ya, I'm still tier 5... Between attempting to level the dragons and jenners, and the server always putting me into groups with Atlas LRM boats who cower in the rear when I play after midnight Pacific time, I've actually almost broken into tier 4 three times only to have my PSR reduced to zero again.

Oh, and I do use the TAG... on my LPL builds, since the pop-up icon tells me when I'm on target.

Death from embarrassment... respawn.

Edited by Robinson Crusher, 26 January 2017 - 12:16 PM.

[MovinTarget]

Don't be too embarrassed, the game has a pretty steep learning curve and you'll be on the plus side of the KDR if you reach out for help...

[MischiefSC]

Robinson Crusher, on 26 January 2017 - 12:14 PM, said:

Wow.

Thanks for all the help. After going through the cadet missions in a stock ERLL Raven (and scoring a total of single digit damage), I switched to an Atlas pack, since that's what my paper and pen role-playing character used, and really started learning. So slow and tanky brawling comes naturally. I never considered the XL as a bonus for using my missiles, especially with the "here I am please shoot me doors", but I will definitely give it a try.

I have the battlemaster hero (LPLs) and marauder hero mechs (seven ML and AC/20), but was waiting for the new skill system before putting any time into them. I'll definitely prioritize them, but I think the ac/20 will have to come out for an lbx 10... I can't see the ac/20 shot on screen when i shoot it. I do have some splat builds; a standard and streak version of the stormcrow and a griffon 2n with 4 srm4, 2 ML and a standard engine. My problem with them is that I like to get in deep in a brawl and occasionally (fatally) forget that I'm not in an Atlas. Thanks for the detailed advice.

... And for the invite. I haven't sought out a unit, well, because I'm used to being excellent at all forms of games and sucking is both unusual and embarrassing. Also my schedule is currently unpredictable. But your group sounds like a great bunch of guys. When I finally make tier 4 I'll drop you a line. Ya, I'm still tier 5... Between attempting to level the dragons and jenners, and the server always putting me into groups with Atlas LRM boats who cower in the rear when I play after midnight Pacific time, I've actually almost broken into tier 4 three times only to have my PSR reduced to zero again.

Oh, and I do use the TAG... on my LPL builds, since the pop-up icon tells me when I'm on target.

Death from embarrassment... respawn.

We were all new. This game is brutal to new players, it was years ago when most of us started and has only gotten worse. There's no good way for you to get in with good players to help show you how to play.

The key to the AC20 at close range is.... if they're close enough it doesn't matter. When you're a 60-70 pt alpha you're going to kill most things with 2 hits. Arm lock on, get a bead on center mass, hit fire. Do this twice on someone less than 200m away and then bug out.

Don't XL an Atlas btw - just the Archer. The Archer at 80 can stick and move; an Atlas at 70 really can't and it's mostly ST. Honestly the best use for an Atlas is MLs, all the SRM6A you can fit, an AC20 and a STD 340 engine. Slam into people and blow them up. You set up a 'bombing run'. You don't stop, you don't back up. Run *past* an enemy, blasting away and into cover - or if your team is with you just run right through them. People are more likely to follow a charging Atlas if you tell them 'Atlas in B4, going in. Come along if you want a piece'. The Atlas D, you move all but 4 pts of armor up front - this gives you like 147 CT and 113 on each ST. 2 SRM6, AC20, 4 MLs. Most mechs will heatcap before they shoot through your armor.

The AC20 is like slightly faster SRMs. It's a SLOW projectile but that means it synergizes well with the SRMs. Shoot them together.

Play with that BLR. It's a great way to learn heat management, range and damage. When you hit someone your crosshairs will flash red. There's also the range readout right next to the crosshairs. You want to keep your targets closer than 500m with those LPLs. WIth system issues that just might be your best possible option.

If you're willing to ask for help and take advice and try to improve you're way ahead of 80% of the other players. It's going to take a long time. Do you have TS installed? Getting on a teamspeak server with the active players and teams will also help you tons and tons and tons. Dropping in matches with a team so you just 'stick with the group' will show you positioning, give you people to ask questions of, etc. Otherwise you're trying to reinvent the wheel.

[Dex Spero]

MovinTarget, on 26 January 2017 - 10:14 AM, said:

To be fair, most lurmers won't announce their build(s) prior to dropping b/c they know the response they'll get... if they are part of a group, its different because they can coordinate a deck prior to dropping so they all know who's bringing narcs, tags, and baps...

Most solo players know they'll b1tched at all game so they don't want to hear about it before hand too.

fair point. i often forget about how bad they get treated.

[Steel Mike Eels]

Personally I think the OP should stick to playing the game he wants to play and let everyone else play it their way. He's the one with the problem it seems to me, and it's just a game after all.

[RaptorCWS]

Kilgrave, on 26 January 2017 - 03:38 PM, said:

Personally I think the OP should stick to playing the game he wants to play and let everyone else play it their way. He's the one with the problem it seems to me, and it's just a game after all.

technically when you get a team full of lrm boats its the whole teams problem, no one wants to get their own locks or fight within their effective range. in a pug game the team with the most lurmers normally is the one that loses

[Neput Z34]

MovinTarget, on 21 January 2017 - 04:40 AM, said:

It really doesn't matter... if they don't bring lurms boats, they'll bring something like this (yes, this is a FP screenshot)



We don't need weapons limitations for FP, as I've said before, we need an "attunement" process to ensure the people that want to play FP know how to play...

Limit drop decks by Battle Value / (C-Bill cost) and Tonnage, instead of the current Tonnage only?

Back on topic:
LRMs are a ineffective against players who know their limitations and how to avoid them or dodge them.

Only a handful of IS mechs are good as LRM mechs, key word mechs not "boats", because you will need backup weapons in a form of Medium and Large Lasers if your tonnage allows.

WHAT, WHERE and WHEN is "acceptable" to bring LRMs solo to NON Scouting FP/CW

Where and When are purely dependent on Map and Mode.

Hunchback HBK-4J with 2 LRM-10s and Med Las + Tag in the Head
Kintaro running LRM 5s mostly with some 10s and Large Laser + Med. Lasers
Anything heavier will gimp the rest of your drop deck, in other words," IN THE NAME OF BLAKE AND WHATEVER STILL HOLLY DON'T BRING AN LRM ATLAS!"

(grammar corrections)

Edited by Neput Z34, 26 January 2017 - 03:59 PM.

[MovinTarget]

RaptorCWS, on 26 January 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

technically when you get a team full of lrm boats its the whole teams problem, no one wants to get their own locks or fight within their effective range. in a pug game the team with the most lurmers normally is the one that loses

Technically, in this case you should have brought your own people in you want to control team composition.

[MischiefSC]

MovinTarget, on 26 January 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

Technically, in this case you should have brought your own people in you want to control team composition.

I don't think it's unreasonable however to ask that if someone come to FW they put the effort into taking what's going to help their team win. If you're pugging, LRMs are a bad choice. There are some exceptions (like for people with health/system issues that mean they're still going to be better with LRMs) but that's an atypical situation.

Bring LRMs to QP or group queue or as part of a team in FW. Pugging with LRMs in FW is almost certain to be a poor choice.

He is correct - as a given rule the team with the most LRM mechs tends to lose. There are some rare exceptions to that but as a given rule.... yeah.

That's part of what separates FW from QP/group queue. The idea that there's an over-arching conflict, that it's about more than just you and your 1 match score. That expectation is not unreasonable for FW.

[Alexandra Hekmatyar]

MischiefSC, on 27 January 2017 - 12:35 AM, said:

I don't think it's unreasonable however to ask that if someone come to FW they put the effort into taking what's going to help their team win. If you're pugging, LRMs are a bad choice. There are some exceptions (like for people with health/system issues that mean they're still going to be better with LRMs) but that's an atypical situation.

You're free to ask anything from others but you might not get it.
If you make your own group you can start demanding that people don't bring lurms, you can't demand this from the solo players.

[MovinTarget]

Its not unreasonable to ask. I think the tone some people use though... it makes certain people just wanna troll you even more.

We prolly need more people saying "thanks for dropping with us, btw if you're interested we can show you how to make more cbills in FP"

And less, "GTFO AND UNINSTALL NOOB U SUCK!!!"

Granted, it is a much more difficult path, and may not yield immedeate results, but it will go over much better than the latter.

You know I am not pro-lurm, but like a religion, people have to find the truth for themselves...

Heh... religion... that just made me think of the guys that solo charge 4 straight waves despite asking them to group up...

[MischiefSC]

Lady Alexandra Cousland, on 27 January 2017 - 04:32 AM, said:

You're free to ask anything from others but you might not get it.
If you make your own group you can start demanding that people don't bring lurms, you can't demand this from the solo players.

I don't demand anything from solo players. I help carry them in several matches pretty much every day. However neither I nor anyone else is obligated to just ignore people playing badly in game. Not insulting them or the like; just pointing out that it would help if they were forward so we could share armor together or be able to push position X. When they say 'please hold locks' and the like I'll usually say if they move up they won't need anyone else to and would be able to contribute more to the match. When an LRM boat is out alone getting killed I'm not going to take a risk to cover them because, well, they're not useful.

On the forums, where people are reading and seeing opinions I'll absolutely point out the realities of LRMs being a bad choice for FW. Pugs constantly complain that units don't drop with them - that's because, exactly as you stated, if you want to keep your teammates from being terribad you need to drop in a group. If someone wants to be a valued member of a team they need to bring valuable loadouts and play in a way that adds value to the team.

Someone who wants to learn, I'm all over it. Someone who wants help, I'm happy to provide it. Someone who just wants to go LURM in FW, well, they're a meat shield to everyone else. They're treating their team with contempt why should they be afforded anything else in return?

[draiocht]

[mod]Edited thread title due to
inappropriate language issue.[/mod]

[Edward Hazen]

MischiefSC, on 27 January 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

I don't demand anything from solo players. I help carry them in several matches pretty much every day. However neither I nor anyone else is obligated to just ignore people playing badly in game. Not insulting them or the like; just pointing out that it would help if they were forward so we could share armor together or be able to push position X. When they say 'please hold locks' and the like I'll usually say if they move up they won't need anyone else to and would be able to contribute more to the match. When an LRM boat is out alone getting killed I'm not going to take a risk to cover them because, well, they're not useful.

On the forums, where people are reading and seeing opinions I'll absolutely point out the realities of LRMs being a bad choice for FW. Pugs constantly complain that units don't drop with them - that's because, exactly as you stated, if you want to keep your teammates from being terribad you need to drop in a group. If someone wants to be a valued member of a team they need to bring valuable loadouts and play in a way that adds value to the team.

Someone who wants to learn, I'm all over it. Someone who wants help, I'm happy to provide it. Someone who just wants to go LURM in FW, well, they're a meat shield to everyone else. They're treating their team with contempt why should they be afforded anything else in return?

Maybe your unit is just not the right unit for a Mechwarrior who specializes in LRMs. It may be that your unit is not flexible enough to develop tactics and strategies that would make the use of LRMs an asset instead of a liability. This is not a dig against your unit, you probably do very well with an all direct-fire team, but people just need to realize that the meta is the way it is because players have made it that way.

Edited by S0ulReapr, 28 January 2017 - 03:04 PM.

[MovinTarget]

S0ulReapr, on 28 January 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

Maybe your unit is just not the right unit for a Mechwarrior who specializes in LRMs. It may be that your unit is not flexible enough to develop tactics and strategies that would make the use of LRMs an asset instead of a liability. This is not a dig against your unit, you probably do very well with an all direct-fire team, but people just need to realize that the meta is the way it is because players have made it that way.

You might be missing the point of the OP in your response to mischief...

Yes, unless the enemy team is equally skilled in lurm avoidance, a FP 12 man built around all the tactics and add-ons to maximize lurm effectiveness can be great. Its when you have 4-6 PUG lurm boats with few backup weapons and no tag/narc/bap, that is what people complain about.

I've made my thoughts on this pretty clear so I will play switzerland on this but I think there is a big difference in attitude over the 2 scenarios...

Edited by MovinTarget, 28 January 2017 - 05:37 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

S0ulReapr, on 28 January 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

Maybe your unit is just not the right unit for a Mechwarrior who specializes in LRMs. It may be that your unit is not flexible enough to develop tactics and strategies that would make the use of LRMs an asset instead of a liability. This is not a dig against your unit, you probably do very well with an all direct-fire team, but people just need to realize that the meta is the way it is because players have made it that way.

Here's the thing, it has been proven many times that direct fire is better, simple logic, 50 points of direct damage to t single component vs 50 damage spread over 5 components. Which is better logically?

That being said, there are a couple of maps where lurms can be advantageous, but for the most part, the rest of the maps have adequate cover to negate lurm so they are not that effective.

[Mr D One]

Certain maps give a great advantage to IS LRM's. (Polar and Alpine)

That being said IS LRMS suffer 5 disadvantages. <= 180 range - 0 damage, limited ammunition, heat, no pinpoint fire, and being dependent on other players to take the risk, do the work, and spot for you.

I think the last is why there is so much hate for LRM's.