63 replies to this topic

[NighthawK1337]

NeoCodex, on 09 February 2017 - 11:51 PM, said:

More then astronomical costs I'm disappointed in xp requirements. Some of the mechs I have mastered atm have only about 60-80k legacy xp out of 135k needed for all 91 SP. That's like almost double of the old mastery. If they were mastered before, why do they only get half of the SP tree now?

Their reasoning was you don't have to buy 3 of the same mechs anymore.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

NighthawK1337, on 09 February 2017 - 11:52 PM, said:

Their reasoning was you don't have to buy 3 of the same mechs anymore.

But I Mastered all the variants of the Chassis... so that is a stupid premise, I liked buying and mastering and then selling to buy new ones. I was the overwhelming percentage of my desire to play the game... Got To Master Them All!!! I was so close, that is the $hittiest part to me was how close I was to accomplishing that.

Now I have 1/3 of the way finished Mechs and no Gold flags... sad times cause PGI moved the goal posts on me.

[Baba_Yaga]

your one of the few! Most hate as well as I do!

[Appogee]

Kudos to PGI for reassuring us at MechCon that the huge unlock values they demod were "just placeholders" ... and then increasing those values even further before PTS.

PGI: putting the "con" in MechCon.

If we're lucky, they might reduce the XP values per unlock back to 1000 - which was the "placeholder value".

PGI: bringing the old pea-and-thimble trick to game design.

Edited by Appogee, 10 February 2017 - 01:18 AM.

[Lupis Volk]

Appogee, on 10 February 2017 - 01:14 AM, said:

Kudos to PGI for reassuring us at MechCon that the huge unlock values they demod were "just placeholders" ... and then increasing those values even further before PTS.

PGI: putting the "con" in MechCon.

If we're lucky, they might reduce the XP values per unlock back to 1000 - which was the "placeholder value".

PGI: bringing the old pea-and-thimble trick to game design.

Complains about cost, forgets that fact that it's cheaper than what an IS or even a Clan player has to do with the current system.

At this point you can all stop with your thin veils and just come out and say you hate change and PGI.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 10 February 2017 - 01:32 AM.

[Appogee]

Lupis Volk, on 10 February 2017 - 01:32 AM, said:

Complains about cost, forgets that fact that it's cheaper than what an IS or even a Clan player has to do with the current system.

How does the 136,500 XP needed to Master a single Mech variant under the new system, seem cheaper to you than the 57,250 XP needed under the current system?

Or cheaper even than the 89,250 XP needed under the current system, if you want to add on top the one-off XP costs of unlocking two pilot and two weapon modules, even though they would benefit all Mechs under the current system?

How does spending 7,500 to unlock 5 levels of Kinetic Burst under the new system, seem cheaper to you than the single unlock of 1,500 XP required under the current system?

Lupis Volk, on 10 February 2017 - 01:32 AM, said:

At this point you can all stop with your thin veils and just come out and say you hate change and PGI.

At this point you might want to stop embarrassing yourself and just come out and say you failed junior level maths, and that you enjoy being PGI's gimp.

Edited by Appogee, 10 February 2017 - 01:52 AM.

[kapusta11]

NeoCodex, on 09 February 2017 - 11:51 PM, said:

More then astronomical costs I'm disappointed in xp requirements. Some of the mechs I have mastered atm have only about 60-80k legacy xp out of 135k needed for all 91 SP. That's like almost double of the old mastery. If they were mastered before, why do they only get half of the SP tree now?

50 skill ponits will give you the same bonuses old skill tree used to provide. What is considered to be "mastered" mech under new system is not the same thing as mastered mech now.

[Lupis Volk]

Appogee, on 10 February 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:

[/i]
Which part of the 135,500 XP needed to Master a Mech under the new system, seems cheaper to you than the 57,250 XP needed under the current system?

So your going to ignore one half of the cost. XP is only half the cost.

Appogee, on 10 February 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:

[/i]
At this point you can stop embarrassing yourself and just come out and say you failed junior level maths, and you enjoy being PGI's Gimp.

Probably coming up: your opportunity to buy a single Mech for $10 instead of 3 for $20. (And you will think that's cheaper too, right?)

Oooh boy i've triggered you hard, sorry for not following the sheeple bandwagon and hating PGI and change, forgive me on forum merc warrior of clan Smoke Kitteh. It appears that i'm not jaded enough for your calibre.

[DovisKhan]

Al in all - yes I'm also very pleased, it needs tweaks, maybe, but it's really fun as an addition.


However - Trial mechs should all receive max skill points, because otherwise a new player in a trial mech is hopelessly outmatched, much more so than before


For example a full skilled Orion has 190+ CT hp and with 4 maxed ASRM6 it can land them all on your CT, it's actually neat, a crappy mech like that gets to live again

[Appogee]

Lupis Volk, on 10 February 2017 - 01:46 AM, said:

So your going to ignore one half of the cost. XP is only half the cost.

There is zero CBill cost to Master a Mech under the current system. But you can spend up to a maximum of 12M CBills once to buy four Modules which you can then re-use across all your Mechs.

The new system introduces a mandatory 9M CBill charge to Master every Mech. No re-use. A player that has Mastered, say, 10 Mechs will have spent 90M CBills to do so under the new system. Taking into account re-use of Modules, they would probably have spent only 60M CBills - and that number is generous, not conservative - under the current system.

Again, please math better before you criticise others' conclusions.

Lupis Volk, on 10 February 2017 - 01:46 AM, said:

Oooh boy i've triggered you hard, sorry for not following the sheeple bandwagon and hating PGI and change...

You're right. Idiots who criticise me as 'hating change' on the basis of their own ignorance of math, while encouraging PGI to shaft players harder, do irritate me.

But I realise I should be thankful to you. It's people like you who may actually just keep the game financially viable under the new system.

You'll be spending CBills leveling, buying MC to perform respecs, and when you find you don't have any CBills saved up to buy your next Mech, you'll probably jump at the opportunity to buy a single Mech for the new bargain price of $10 each. Because you will think that's better value than 3 for $20, won't you.

So please, continue to rail against those of us who can use a calculator, and who dispassionately see this change for what it is - a significant increase in grind and decrease in available earnings. By all means, argue against the facts we lay out by calling us 'haters' and 'against change' and 'forum warriors'.

That last charge is particularly ironic, given you're the one whose post was nothing more than an unfounded personal attack, and also factually incorrect.

Edited by Appogee, 10 February 2017 - 02:33 AM.

[tokumboh]

Lupis Volk, on 10 February 2017 - 01:46 AM, said:

So your going to ignore one half of the cost. XP is only half the cost.


Oooh boy i've triggered you hard, sorry for not following the sheeple bandwagon and hating PGI and change, forgive me on forum merc warrior of clan Smoke Kitteh. It appears that i'm not jaded enough for your calibre.

Whhooooo everyone

Firstly I would like to say I think the skill tree is a step in the right direction, I am not sure we needed the skill tree to do this but hell we are where we are.

The game is heavily mech purchasing centric., so much so that I think everything else suffers, games mode are pretty poor, maps are not the greatest and FW is just not doing it for many people

The skill tree for me has done two things it has increased the TTK, (just check the cooldown values your mech has now, and the armour buffs you can have) it has made brawling fun again and it has made people think about their mechs in a new light.

The negative part is that has assumed that people took 3 mechs to build one of them which is just not true in many instances. I accept there are some chassis which only have one good mech but there are lots which actually have three good mechs and for example most of my mechs are mastered and indeed even I as a **** pilot pretty much attempt to master all of my mechs and try playing them or I end up selling them. if I find that they are unplayable.

Now if I was only grinding for one mech of the three I would understand some of the argument here but I think the grind would be excessive and we should stop making the equivalence of the idea that 1 only buy 3 mechs to master just one of them.

[Lupis Volk]

Appogee, on 10 February 2017 - 02:06 AM, said:

There is zero CBill cost to Master a Mech under the current system. But you can spend up to a maximum of 12M CBills once to buy four Modules which you can then re-use across all your Mechs.

The new system introduces a mandatory 9M CBill charge to Master every Mech. No re-use. A player that has Mastered, say, 10 Mechs will have spent 90M CBills to do so under the new system. Taking into account re-use of Modules, they would probably have spent only 60M CBills - and that number is generous, not conservative - under the current system.

Again, please math better before you criticise others' conclusions.

There is a Cbill cost, you need 3 of a chassis to "master" it, that will cost more than 9mil to get all three and make them playable. Then many would say modules truly make it mastered, that in of itself can be around 9 mil for them.

The Cbill costs *minus the mech* would easily be over 9mil, the engine, Double heatsink, endo and fero would easily be 9mil in some mechs.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 10 February 2017 - 02:31 AM.

[Appogee]

Lupis Volk, on 10 February 2017 - 02:20 AM, said:

There is a Cbill cost, you need 3 of a chassis to "master" it, that will cost more than 9mil to get all three and make them playable. Then many would say modules truly make it mastered, that in of itself can be around 9 mil for them. The Cbill costs *minus the mech* would easily be over 9mil, the engine, Double heatsink, endo and fero would easily be 9mil in some mechs.

I see you're still not using math. Allow me to assist you.

Let's look at a player who wants to Master a relatively modest hangar of 9 Mastered Mechs. Let's compare the current system with the new system.

Under the Current System
CBill cost to buy 9 Mechs: 99M (using 11M CBills - a Storm Crow - as an average Mech price).
XP cost to Master 9 Mechs: 515,250 XP
CBill cost to buy, say, 4 of the most expensive reusable Mech Modules: 24M
CBill cost to buy, say, 8 reusable Weapon Modules: 24M
XP cost to unlock 12 Pilot Skills for the 12 Modules: 42,000 XP

Total CBills: 147M
Total XP: 557,250

Under the New System
CBill cost to buy 9 Mechs: 99M (using 11M CBills as an average price).
XP cost to Master 9 Mechs: 1,228,500 XP
CBill cost to Master 9 Mechs: 81.9M

Total CBills: 180.9M
Total XP: 1,228,500

Conclusion:
The new system requires 23% more CBills and 220% more XP.
And that's after a generous comparison.
In fact, the new system is even worse with the more Mechs you Master, or if you select less expensive Mechs, or if you don't spend money upgrading the other two variants you'll never use under your current "set of three" etc.

Finally:
Now that I've laid out the math with you, do you still think your opening comment - "Complains about cost, forgets that fact that it's cheaper than what an IS or even a Clan player has to do with the current system. At this point you can all stop with your thin veils" - was because I "hate change and PGI"...?

Or do you think perhaps I studied and calculated the impact of the new system, took the time to share it with fellow players, and also, got justifiably concerned that PGI had actually further increased what they told us at MechCon were "placeholder values"?

Edited by Appogee, 10 February 2017 - 03:22 AM.

[Kotzi]

@Lupis
No you dont, if you just bought them to level your main, you just needed to basic them. That could be done without upgrading them what would have been a waste anyway. Only for the first of each weight class you had to master 3 at least. So any comp guy might win with the new system. If you collect, master and want to play all your mechs you are screwed with the new system.

Edited by Kotzi, 10 February 2017 - 03:05 AM.

[Khobai]

the fact is you shouldnt have to pay at all to respec

we didnt have to pay anything before we could just swap modules for free

you should only have to pay initially for skill points. after you buy them the first time you should be able to respec them for free whenever you want.

it makes zero sense to put customization behind a paywall when customization was this games only real draw. you dont take the biggest strength of your game and make it the least accessible feature... thats re tarded.

Edited by Khobai, 10 February 2017 - 03:04 AM.

[Vellron2005]

So far, I've only read the initial post, not tested in the PTS yet.. but here are my first impressions so far:

1) The firepower skills need to be more distinctive and structured.. If I want to just build up saaay LRM range, why would PGI force me to also build up LRM cooldown? It's not feeling like I have much "control" over the way I want to set my skills up..

2) PGI basically went "hey, we want you to feel like you can buff you mech, without actually buffing your mech. So we gonn' nerf your mech, so you can re-buff it to where it is now" - Its understandable, but kinda a ***** move..

3) Every time I read the explanations they give for nerfs, they always use cheesy lines like "yeah,we nerfed this into the ground to bring it more in line with all the other similar stuff" - Ok, if that was the first time, it would be all cool.. but stuff has been brought "in line" so many times already, that "the line" feels pretty far away right now..

4) LRM range nerf / ECM nerf / other similar nerfs - Dear PGI, let me teach you something about the way people think and react.. What you did there was you took something away from us that we had, and you made us work to get it back. That is not good. That pisses people off. The way to make people happy is to make them work for something they never had, or to make something they have better. So yes, You can expect a shait storm over all the "base nerfs".. people will not like that. LRM range nerf for instance.. that range was sacred to LRM users. And you've gone and ruined it.

5) In culmination - The new skill tree forces mech build specialisation, and completely nerfs variety builds. If saay, I want to use my Frankenmech Timberwolf that uses LRM10, UAC20 and Small lasers... I can't boost those weapons effectively. Instead, my LRM is clipped, and my UAC is nerfed from the start, and I have to go "jack of all trades-master of none", getting essentially sub-par skill bonuses. Before the new skill tree, that particular build was one of my most effective builds. Now... I doubt it will keep that title.

Thank god you did a PTS, you still have a chance to fix this..

[Arugela]

I think everyone is missing two things.

1. the system may have a new max in skills and layouts giving reason for the new higher cost per mech.
2. It is also the new way to get modules. (AKA the previous cbill sink)

Of course the old system didn't include cbills. Because the cbills were in the modules and it was seperate. Now it is not separate.. If you look at the costs between the new system it is cheaper and better. you get customization and focus. And you get cheaper modules. I bet you anything the low end choices could be used to get the same mech as now for either the same or much less.

Haven't been on the server to test it as I'm linux and the test server doesn't work for me. But these simple facts are obvious and seem to be missed by most people. BTW, I bet we can get more "modules" now also.

There may be a big change in tactics if everyone can more easily get things like seismic and deprivation and still pick more stuff. maybe more team coordination. Probably the reason all the missiles got those accuracy bonuses. They will need to be to do more in less time with the new stuff available.

And before anyone forgets. We are getting money back for our modules. Unless they have changed that. I believe full price for all of them. given the xp points are cheaper than full mod layouts. anyone who has bought mods is going to be dong well cbill wise as far as specing up initially.

Edited by Arugela, 10 February 2017 - 03:30 AM.

[Vellron2005]

Oh, I forgot one thing..

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to actually get a skill, you have to spend both XP and cbills.. and when you respec.. you get XP back, but not the cbills?

Thats not cool..

[Besh]

Khobai, on 10 February 2017 - 03:03 AM, said:

the fact is you shouldnt have to pay at all to respec

we didnt have to pay anything before we could just swap modules for free

you should only have to pay initially for skill points. after you buy them the first time you should be able to respec them for free whenever you want.

it makes zero sense to put customization behind a paywall when customization was this games only real draw. you dont take the biggest strength of your game and make it the least accessible feature... thats re tarded.

There actually is no "paywall" . You can respec individual Nodes as well as the entire tree using inGame currency . The term "paywall" is used if something inGame requires real Cash to be done .

This is not the case for respeccing SkillTree. Imho, this is one of the many aspects they got RIGHT !

Actually, the way they made respec to work shows clearly that they have read, and listened to player concerns .

Edited by Besh, 10 February 2017 - 03:28 AM.

[Appogee]

Arugela, on 10 February 2017 - 03:22 AM, said:

I think everyone is missing two things.
1. the system may have a new max in skills and layouts giving reason for the new higher cost per mech.
2. It is also the new way to get modules. (AKA the previous cbill sink)

Of course the old system didn't include cbills. Because the cbills were in the modules and it was seperate. Now it is now. If you look at the costs between the new system it is cheaper and better. you get customization and focus. And you get cheaper modules. I bet you anything the low end choices could be used to get the same mech as now for much less.

I just showed you a direct comparison. The new system is more expensive in CBills and XP, even taking into account module costs.

Incidentally, when I tried out the new system in PTS yesterday, I ran out of Skill Nodes before I was able to get my Jenner-IIC up to the same level as it is in the old system. And that's despite it boating only one weapon type, SRMs, which requires only one set of weapon unlocks.

So no, you wont be getting "the same Mech as now for less". That's because:
* you need to make multiple progressive unlocks of what used to be a single unlock;
* you have to unlock useless skills to get to the ones you really want.

Edited by Appogee, 10 February 2017 - 03:30 AM.