306 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Wintersdark, on 02 March 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

...
You are a raging idiot.
...

Am I?

Or am I just furious because the game is in the process of being shat upon because people can't deal with SOMETHING THAT WEIGHS HALF OF SOMETHING ELSE BEING LESS GOOD THAN THE MASSIVELY HEAVIER THING?!

I hate this idea, Winter. I hate it with the blistering scorching passion of a thousand exploding supernovae because it is going to unrecoverably brick the majority of my Clan stable. The implementation is never going to be 'good' because if you asked three people what 'good' meant you'd get six opinions and a fistfight. Everyone is so incensed that taking large engines lets you move better than things with small engines despite that moving-better thing being the actual reason you take a large engine in the first place.

Lemme put it this way, Winter. Maybe this will help.

1453-R's First Reason This Idea Sucks Rocks: something that spends all of its tonnage on guns has no f***ing business being every last micron as maneuverable as something that spends all its tonnage on maneuverability.

If someone spends the majority of their free tonnage on building a faster, nimbler, more agile and maneuverable machine, then they should have the maneuver advantage. It should be easier for that guy to outmaneuver his foes, reposition more effectively, get the drop on targets he cannot engage in a stand-up fight because they've sunk all their free tonnage into being pocket Whales, instead. The guy that overloads on guns should damn well be vulnerable to the guy that overloads on engine and mobility systems, because the gunbag has a distinct advantage over the 'balanced' guy who's not fast enough to get away from, or get the drop on, the gunbag and doesn't have enough weight of weaponry to win the stand-up fight the gunbag is angling for.

The gunbag has an edge over the balanced guy, the balanced guy has an edge over the speedboat, and the speedboat has an edge over the gunbag. Except now the latter isn't true because this change is removing the speedboat's edge over the gunbag, and as a dedicated speedboat-y player since basically the dawn of time, I am furious that Piranha can do this, everyone can see it and go "YAY BEST IDEA EVARZ!" because they can now stick a 200STD in their 'Mech and lose absolutely nothing but groundspeed compared to a 350XL guy that is no longer able to get the drop on the 200STD dude because Mr. 200STD HAS EVERY INCH OF THE AGILITY OF SOMEONE WHO SACRIFICED EVERYTHING ELSE HIS 'MECH COULD RUN FOR AGILITY!

When the 200STD guy can just whip around and respond in force to the 350XL guy with twice the f***ing firepower, every bit as fast as the 350XL guy can try and maneuver to retain advantage and press his attack, you have officially destroyed raiders, strikers, flankers, and harassers as a thing. Those are the things I do, so yes, I'm going to protest this thing until I'm blue in the face because I'd like to keep playing MechWarrior Online.

Even if only mostly theoretically at this point.

[Wintersdark]

1453 R, on 02 March 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

Am I?

Unequivicably, yes. In 5 years, I've never sat here and said that before, but I am now.

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Or am I just furious because the game is in the process of being shat upon because people can't deal with SOMETHING THAT WEIGHS HALF OF SOMETHING ELSE BEING LESS GOOD THAN THE MASSIVELY HEAVIER THING?!

If that were the case, I'd agree. That is not the case. The speed from the engine is massively more valuable, heat sink space next. We've done this, though - I've showed the builds, demonstrated the math.

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I hate this idea, Winter. I hate it with the blistering scorching passion of a thousand exploding supernovae because it is going to unrecoverably brick the majority of my Clan stable. The implementation is never going to be 'good' because if you asked three people what 'good' meant you'd get six opinions and a fistfight. Everyone is so incensed that taking large engines lets you move better than things with small engines despite that moving-better thing being the actual reason you take a large engine in the first place.

Except in this case, the large engine is STILL allowing you to move massively faster. A 20-30kph difference in a game where outside of lights, "fast" is 80kph is MASSIVE. It's a tremendous difference.

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The gunbag has an edge over the balanced guy, the balanced guy has an edge over the speedboat, and the speedboat has an edge over the gunbag. Except now the latter isn't true because this change is removing the speedboat's edge over the gunbag, and as a dedicated speedboat-y player since basically the dawn of time, I am furious that Piranha can do this, everyone can see it and go "YAY BEST IDEA EVARZ!" because they can now stick a 200STD in their 'Mech and lose absolutely nothing but groundspeed compared to a 350XL guy that is no longer able to get the drop on the 200STD dude because Mr. 200STD HAS EVERY INCH OF THE AGILITY OF SOMEONE WHO SACRIFICED EVERYTHING ELSE HIS 'MECH COULD RUN FOR AGILITY!

No, he sacrificed everything else for a MASSIVE SPEED DIFFERENCE, *and* a massive amount of space for cooling.

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When the 200STD guy can just whip around and respond in force to the 350XL guy with twice the f***ing firepower, every bit as fast as the 350XL guy can try and maneuver to retain advantage and press his attack, you have officially destroyed raiders, strikers, flankers, and harassers as a thing. Those are the things I do, so yes, I'm going to protest this thing until I'm blue in the face because I'd like to keep playing MechWarrior Online.

Even if only mostly theoretically at this point.

Not theoretically at all.

Look, show me the build. Show me the build where the 200STD mech has "with twice the f***ing firepower". I mean it, do it or just STFU. Outside of some really contrived gauss -> dual guass examples (where the original single-gauss build is outright silly) it's just not happening.

And even then, NOBODY IS USING 200 RATED ENGINES. The loss of dissipation is brutal. The lack of mobility from speed is crushing.

SPEED IS IMPORTANT. Massively so. If you don't understand that, it's your own ignorance that's the problem.

Because I've been down that road already in this thread. I demonstrated with the Banshee that dropping the engine did not allow more firepower, and that in practice you had LESS FIREPOWER with a smaller engine, as the massive number of free crit slots for DHS allow the large engined Banshee to actually use more firepower.

Some builds can certainly get more firepower, but generally speaking it's ~20% more with a MASSIVE engine size change, IF you can do without the DHS.

I'm talking actual, serious builds, not BS speculation. Do it. Make the builds.

[L3mming2]

cazidin, on 02 March 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

So, how many 30 KPH assaults are on the PTS?

i for one am loving the mauler with 6 ac5's and a 250 std, it works like a charm in the new system

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 02 March 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

Because there's one or two decent mediums makes the weight class just fine? Come on. The HBK-IIC is a fantastic mech, but Mediums as a class are and have been for ages in a bad place. Having a good mech doesn't change that.

I mean, there are an extensive amount of assaults that aren't really in a good place as well. Not that I don't support this decoupling thing, just want to point out that there are an extensive number of bad assaults.

[Wintersdark]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 March 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

I mean, there are an extensive amount of assaults that aren't really in a good place as well. Not that I don't support this decoupling thing, just want to point out that there are an extensive number of bad assaults.

This is truth.

I've never advocated nerfing assaults. Just that Mediums need to be *more* agile than they are. After all, I'm an Assault pilot =)

Edited by Wintersdark, 02 March 2017 - 11:31 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 02 March 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

How long is the implementation allowed to be off before the concept will be considered to've failed?

More than one at least.....

Even in the MW4 days there was a reason to get a bigger engine and not just go down to the lowest possible engine and mount all the things (ninja SCat/Ryo teams were pretty devastating against any lesser team) and MW4 DID NOT have agility tied to speed. So can we stop acting liking a raving lunatic and actually provide constructive criticism as to how the baseline is wrong?

[cazidin]

Excuse me but, is anyone voluntarily using engines larger than 250 on the PTS? I'm curious about how many 30-40 KPH Assaults that I can circle around.

[Wintersdark]

cazidin, on 02 March 2017 - 11:51 AM, said:

Excuse me but, is anyone voluntarily using engines larger than 250 on the PTS? I'm curious about how many 30-40 KPH Assaults that I can circle around.

Basically everyone, barring a couple. Some slow Maulers, but that was absolutely expected. It helps them out a heck of a lot. Also a couple hardcore DakkaCrabs. Most though seem to think that ground speed is actually valuable. Silly people! Who could think such a stupid thing?

[cazidin]

Wintersdark, on 02 March 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

Basically everyone, barring a couple. Some slow Maulers, but that was absolutely expected. It helps them out a heck of a lot. Also a couple hardcore DakkaCrabs. Most though seem to think that ground speed is actually valuable. Silly people! Who could think such a stupid thing?

You must be completely wrong, Wintersdark. Please play another 50-60 hours of PTS before commenting and SEE that NOBODY is voluntarily using an engine larger than 250. Agility has been completely removed from them and top speed is IRRELEVANT. This isn't subjective speculation based on some sort of primal fear, nope. It's an objective fact, good sir!

GOOD DAY!

(P.S. I'm being sarcastic, but this is directed at the OP and not you! Thank you for the info.)

[Gas Guzzler]

Wintersdark, on 02 March 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

Because there's one or two decent mediums makes the weight class just fine? Come on. The HBK-IIC is a fantastic mech, but Mediums as a class are and have been for ages in a bad place. Having a good mech doesn't change that.

There have been times where you could have said the same thing about assaults. In fact, for every class other than heavies. I thought lights were the worst weight class... ? Whatever. I just think assaults should be a little more agile than they are, and I think something funky is up with deceleration.. hopefully its a bug.

[1453 R]

I'm not going to "make the builds" because I'm woman enough to admit that I'm not as up on what the top-end ultracomps are playing at the moment and do not have the ability to produce convincing 'serious' fits off the top of my head.

What I will say, Winter, is that you, specifically, are the one who said that someone putting a 200STD in his Hunchback to run it the way God intended with a torso-mounted AC/20 didn't deserve to be punished for that decision by being less mobile than, say, a 350XL Blitzkrieg with the same* gun bolted onto an enormously more capable (in theory) powerplant. So I suppose I'll examine those two. Let's see.

HBK-4G - 'AGI' Model
BTZ-3F* - 'Mockzkrieg' (Gauss Rifle substituted for appropriate weight, 3 or more critslots left open to accomodate physically larger AC/20. Nothing in the game can currently fit both a 350XL and an AC/20 on the Sphere side, please allow for mock-ups).


Now. According to this Engine Decoupling idiocy, these two 'Mechs should have completely and utterly identical movement profiles. The Blitzkrieg does not accelerate, decelerate, turn, or twist a single cm/s faster than the Hunchback. it has zero maneuverability or agility advantage over the older AC/20 fifty-tonner. What does the Blitzkrieg sacrifice for the ability to move moderately faster than the Hunchback?

• Armor. The Blitz has to shave a silly amount of armor just to force a third ton of ammunition for its weapon into the frame. Speaking of:
  
• Ammunition. The Hunchback gets four and a half tons of ammunition for its gun. The Blitzkrieg barely gets three. And when those three tons run out, the BLitz is stuck without:
  
• Backup weaponry. The Hunchback gets a couple of MPL to finish weakened targets with when its gun is dry and/or pretend to be relevant later on with. The Blitz gets to faff around and bodyblock for its allies when its gun runs dry.
  
• Sanity. I know nobody would ever run a stock Blitzkrieg. That's not even really the point.

The point is that the Blitzkrieg gives up everything for its gigantic engine. Same as the Linebacker, same as the Gargoyle, same as the Ice Ferret, same as a number of other machines (if less permanently than the OmniMechs do). That is supposed to mean something. I can imagine that in TT dealing with a Blitzkrieg (or better yet, a pair of Blitzkriegs) was a rather tense affair - the sucker can just slam in at Jenner speeds, put a double-shot of AC/20 into something and more than likely cripple it, then Zoidberg the frugg out to avoid reprisal and do it all over again. Not as OMFG GO AWAY as a Solitaire, perhaps, but the same raider-style concept applies.

In post-engine-fiasco MWO, the Blitz would be (even more of) an absolute joke. Any other 'Mech on the field could track the thing, blow its face off, and get back to their trench fight without a care in the world, because the Blitzkrieg cannot take unusual attack angles and count on its superior agility to allow it to make those angles good before its speed takes it out of line again. It has the same crappy-ashed handling as the HBK-4G, and so unless it catch the HBK-4G completely and utterly asleep at the wheel - an assumption one can never really make in MWO - the HBK can just track the Blitz, knock it on the head with superior firepower and protection, and ignore the 'threat' of the somewhat faster but no more maneuverable machine.

The Blitzkrieg's monster engine becomes actively detrimental to the 'Mech - just as folks desired it to be. The slower, smaller-engined 'Mech avoids the 'punishment' of being less maneuverable than the 'Mech with a very large engine intended to make it more maneuverable than 'Mechs with more 'reasonable' engines.

I understand the reasoning. STDs blow, and this change makes STD blow less - or rather, it makes big XLs suck all the donkey d*** in the world, so STDs are less awful in comparison.

A lot of folks think the game is too fast because the mobility benefits of a big honkin' engine are too lucrative to ignore in many cases, especially in a world where the Clans exist.

Engine mobility compounds quirk mobility and skilltree mobility in a rich-get-richer schema that feels overly punitive to people who prefer to be less maneuverable in exchange for better weaponry.

Okay? I understand those. I get those. I don't necessarily agree with them, but I understand the reasoning.

Here's the thing: I love raiders. There is nothing in MWO that is even half as awesome, to me, as taking out a Viper or a Grendel (god I want the Grendel so freaking bad...q_q...) or some other beefy-motor'd Slim Jim and picking apart some big braggardly fatbro driver who figures he's all that and a kettle of fish because he's got more weight of gun than I have weight of 'Mech. 'Poke the bear' is the best damn part of MWO, or any other mecha combat game I've ever played, or any other game I've played where the style/strategy is anything like a thing.

You're telling me raiders are bad for balance and need to go away.

I am never going to agree with that. If that's the conclusion that people are drawing from all of this, the conclusion you all are poking Piranha into working towards, I may as well just uninstall right now and give up on MWO. Which, to be fair, most of you are likely hoping for at this point, so hey. No big deal.

But I can't imagine I'm the only guy who considers raiders, strikers, skirmishers, and other fast-attack style variations to be the coolest part of the game. Are we sure we want everyone who loves that stuff to hear "f*** you, you're bad for the game, uninstall and go away"?

Edited by 1453 R, 02 March 2017 - 12:12 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 March 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

There have been times where you could have said the same thing about assaults. In fact, for every class other than heavies. I thought lights were the worst weight class... ? Whatever. I just think assaults should be a little more agile than they are, and I think something funky is up with deceleration.. hopefully its a bug.

Yes, you definitely can say the same about assaults.

That's why I've argued that Mediums should be more agile, but assaults shouldn't be nerfed. Assaults are NOT op.

Lights are probably worst off as a class, but it's not because of agility. Mediums have long had this problem - heavies/assaults have the same agility, and more of everything else. Mediums lack Light speed (a couple "overgrown lights" aside) but don't gain anything in the turnover.

Looking at Live, mediums as a class need substantially more agility than they currently have.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 02 March 2017 - 12:16 PM, said:

Lights are probably worst off as a class, but it's not because of agility.

For a majority of 35 tonners, I would honestly say it is partly because of agility. If they could pull off the same sort of shenanigans they might actually be harder to deal with despite their larger size. Then again more structure/weapon quirks would also help.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 March 2017 - 12:24 PM.

[Wintersdark]

1453 R, on 02 March 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

But I can't imagine I'm the only guy who considers raiders, strikers, skirmishers, and other fast-attack style variations to be the coolest part of the game. Are we sure we want everyone who loves that stuff to hear "f*** you, you're bad for the game, uninstall and go away"?

You're not the only one who likes that.

What you are is a moron who totally disregards the difference that the speed and heat sinks makes.

Look:

At 50t, a 350 equipped mech moves at 122kph. One equipped with a 200 moves at 70kph.

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What does the Blitzkrieg sacrifice for the ability to move moderately faster than the Hunchback?

...

Moderately faster? 52 KPH FASTER IS NOT MODERATELY FASTER.

The Blitzkrieg could be into AC20 range, firing, and gone before the 4G gets anywhere close to the target. That's a monumentally huge advange. The Blitzkrieg is moving at 174% the 4G's speed, nearly twice as fast. Being able to disengage rapidly is huge!

In this example, both are twisting/turning very quickly, because they are both mediums, but due to PGI's already stated methodology the Blitzkrieg WOULD have faster mobility as well because it's an agility based mech.

So, not only does the Blitz move nearly twice as fast, it's STILL MORE MOBILE AS WELL.


If you persist in claiming a 50 kph speed difference is irrelevant, well, again. Raging idiot.

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But I can't imagine I'm the only guy who considers raiders, strikers, skirmishers, and other fast-attack style variations to be the coolest part of the game.

Yet doesn't feel a 122kph vs. 70kph striker/skirmisher is a significant advantage.

Edited by Wintersdark, 02 March 2017 - 12:30 PM.

[cazidin]

Wintersdark, on 02 March 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

You're not the only one who likes that.

What you are is a moron who totally disregards the difference that the speed and heat sinks makes.

Look:

At 50t, a 350 equipped mech moves at 122kph. One equipped with a 200 moves at 70kph.


...

Moderately faster? 52 KPH FASTER IS NOT MODERATELY FASTER.

The Blitzkrieg could be into AC20 range, firing, and gone before the 4G gets anywhere close to the target. That's a monumentally huge advange. The Blitzkrieg is moving at 174% the 4G's speed, nearly twice as fast. Being able to disengage rapidly is huge!

In this example, both are twisting/turning very quickly, because they are both mediums, but due to PGI's already stated methodology the Blitzkrieg WOULD have faster mobility as well because it's an agility based mech.

So, not only does the Blitz move nearly twice as fast, it's STILL MORE MOBILE AS WELL.


If you persist in claiming a 50 kph speed difference is irrelevant, well, again. Raging idiot.

Shh... Wintersdark.

250 Engine Meta inc.

Top speed is irrelevant.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 March 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

For a majority of 35 tonners, I would honestly say it is partly because of agility. If they could pull off the same sort of shenanigans they might actually be harder to deal with despite their larger size. Then again more structure/weapon quirks would also help.

Same sort of shenanigans as a Locust you mean?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 March 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

Same sort of shenanigans as a Locust you mean?

Yeah, apparently the "as a Locust" never made it from my head to my keyboard.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 March 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

Yeah, apparently the "as a Locust" never made it from my head to my keyboard.

LOL. I have that problem sometimes too.

[1453 R]

Wintersdark, on 02 March 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

...
If you persist in claiming a 50 kph speed difference is irrelevant, well, again. Raging idiot.
...
Yet doesn't feel a 122kph vs. 70kph striker/skirmisher is a significant advantage.

Groundspeed is an advantage, yes.

However, I have long maintained that groundspeed alone is not "maneuverability." You can put a giant engine into a jet fighter, give it all the straight-line speed in the world, but if the plane is big and fat and heavy and maneuvers poorly, then its ability to move faster in a straight line than a smaller, much lighter and nimbler jet means pretty much fugg-all because the nimbler jet will simply stay out of the fat jet's sights, inside its loops and pick it apart as it waddles its chubby tail around trying to be relevant.

The. Entire. F***ing. Package. Is important. Not just straight-line drag-race groundspeed. The whole package. Everything. Groundspeed is important. So is acceleration. So is deceleration. So is turnspeed and twist speed. Go read up on the OODA Loop methodology John Boyd came up with that pretty much reinvented aerial combat from the ground up. Sheer footspeed is an edge, but it's only a decisive one when combined with the agility to actually factually outmaneuver and out-decide enemy threats, not just run faster in one singular immutable direction.

The 'Mobility' skill branch is absolutely as awful as everyone figured it would be, but because it's twenty-odd of one's nearly-a-hundred points people max it out anyways so it's a total write-off. Counting on Piranha to properly identify 'fast' 'Mechs in need of baseline agility bonuses is clearly and obviously a forlorn hope given the breathtaking horribleness of the current PTS implementation.

How are you supposed to build raiders when the game is as likely to spike your raider's agility as it is to emphasize it, and you no longer have any means whatsoever of focusing on improving agility for said raider?

[Wintersdark]

1453 R, on 02 March 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

Groundspeed is an advantage, yes.

However, I have long maintained that groundspeed alone is not "maneuverability." You can put a giant engine into a jet fighter, give it all the straight-line speed in the world, but if the plane is big and fat and heavy and maneuvers poorly, then its ability to move faster in a straight line than a smaller, much lighter and nimbler jet means pretty much fugg-all because the nimbler jet will simply stay out of the fat jet's sights, inside its loops and pick it apart as it waddles its chubby tail around trying to be relevant.

The. Entire. F***ing. Package. Is important. Not just straight-line drag-race groundspeed. The whole package. Everything. Groundspeed is important. So is acceleration. So is deceleration. So is turnspeed and twist speed. Go read up on the OODA Loop methodology John Boyd came up with that pretty much reinvented aerial combat from the ground up. Sheer footspeed is an edge, but it's only a decisive one when combined with the agility to actually factually outmaneuver and out-decide enemy threats, not just run faster in one singular immutable direction.

The 'Mobility' skill branch is absolutely as awful as everyone figured it would be, but because it's twenty-odd of one's nearly-a-hundred points people max it out anyways so it's a total write-off. Counting on Piranha to properly identify 'fast' 'Mechs in need of baseline agility bonuses is clearly and obviously a forlorn hope given the breathtaking horribleness of the current PTS implementation.

How are you supposed to build raiders when the game is as likely to spike your raider's agility as it is to emphasize it, and you no longer have any means whatsoever of focusing on improving agility for said raider?

A 50t medium is very agile in the PTS right now, even without mobility skills. Many won't even take the Agility tree at all. A 50t medium WITH the mobility tree is very much agile, and more would be of limited gain. So, you CAN choose to be more agile if you want. There IS a way to focus on mobility.

You've got a lot of points, but there's a LOT of skill tree points to distribute. That mobility tree requires the largest investment out of all the trees (you'll never take the full weapon tree, which is technically larger). So choosing to take it comes at a cost, it's NOT a mandatory tree.

Accel stats and decel curve bugs aside, there's issues with Light and Assault mobility, but Mediums and Heavies are right now in a pretty good place.

50kph isn't a minor advantage. It's a MASSIVE advantage.

I don't care about jet combat, as it's VERY different (jets can't fire backwards, and lack turrets! Jets also have no cover of note. Air combat is totally different and doesn't apply here) You're talking about a minor agility differential vs. a massive ground speed difference. That ground speed in MWO is critical. A 75% increase in ground speed is a monumentally huge advantage that mech is buying, particularly given it already will have better agility, and BOTH mechs are already quite agile "out of the box".

I'm done arguing this, though. You can go on being a moron on my ignore list.

Edited by Wintersdark, 02 March 2017 - 12:54 PM.