190 replies to this topic

[Insomnium80]

I would like to suggest that PGI would consider giving a time window for a higher sell back price for mechs. The refund could be around 70%-90%.

This would compensate for the people who spent their c-bills for mechs and could sell back the ones they "never wanted" and they would get a considerable chunk of c-bills back to use on skill trees, versus the guys who actually bought the modules. This would level the c-bill investment for most types of earlier investment.

Example:

I wanted to master my marauders, but I never liked the Marauder 5D, but I would like to continue playing 3R and 5M. Considering I spent a lot of c-bills to get 3 variants, 1 of which I basically never use.

Some people might have used the c-bills on modules instead and not get them mastered. Those people will now be refunded, but the ones who bought the "extra mech" get a bit screwed.

Having a time window for the higher sell back price would level the field for everyone transitioning to the new system and the people who invested in mechs instead of modules, would not be at such a large disadvantage.

Edited by Insomnium80, 11 March 2017 - 09:21 AM.

[KingCobra]

The thing is MWO never needed skill trees to start with when you skilled up a mech under the old system you really never got any benefits until it was mastered and then it was only useful for the extra module slot if you could afford to buy it = A module.

I would assume most basic players never leveled up to elite so why do we need a more complicated and costly skill system when most wont even use it?

PGI should have put there resources into gaining new players and advertising the money they waste on dumb crap just amazes me.

Edited by KingCobra, 11 March 2017 - 09:30 AM.

[Appogee]

Insomnium80, on 11 March 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

...could sell back the ones they "never wanted" and they would get a considerable chunk of c-bills back to use on skill trees...

Problem with that is, PGI will deliberately swing the meta through weapon and balance changes, to require re-speccing and encourage MC expenditure on XP conversion.

As we have seen in the past, that will make some of the current meta Mechs less competitive, and uncompetitive Mechs will become viable again.

It won't be 'safe' to sell Mechs.

[Insomnium80]

Appogee, on 11 March 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

Problem with that is, PGI will deliberately swing the meta through weapon and balance changes, to require re-speccing and encourage MC expenditure on XP conversion.

As we have seen in the past, that will make some of the current meta Mechs less competitive, and uncompetitive Mechs will become viable again.

It won't be 'safe' to sell Mechs.

Definitely not safe to sell all of them, but at least the ones you don't like and were "forced to buy" to get 3 variants and get them mastered. Now that that requirement is gone, it would be more balanced for everyone. The problem for the whales is that they have too many mechs to master and too little time and c-bills. This would level the field a bit.

It's not a perfect solution by any means, but it would address the problem many people have.

Also re-speccing will not cost c-bills after you open the node once. While initially it is a bit of a grind, in the end you have your favorites and the cost is still not prohibitive.

At the very least, it would give the option for people to clean out their mechbays to reinvest the c-bills they once needed to master a mech to master the mechs they actually use in the new system.

Also this would level the playing field between the people who invested in mechs and the people who invested in modules.

They said in the podcast, that there will be a need for c-bill cost in the new tree system for economy reasons and that is not unreasonable. We are getting a lot of modules for a lot cheaper than in the old system, where a module set would cost 12M or close per mech (which is close to the total cost of c-bills per mech in the new system, where around 5M is the total cost of initial spec and around 13M is the cost of opening all nodes forever). I find this cost per mech to be very reasonable.

As stated before, the whales invested in lot of mechs and this would be their opportunity to streamline their mech collection and not be in a huge disadvantage compared to the people who did less module hopping.

Edited by Insomnium80, 11 March 2017 - 09:53 AM.

[Daemon04]

"insert infamous bob kelso meme here"

either its going to be like solahmas tree being a more linear system or we have to consider going for a variant specific tree that will need quite some time to implement which is still going to be a better option than what is being provided anytime soon.

non quirked clan mechs will be the s-h-i-t and on top of that our instagib xls will stay the same. these issues still remain.
for the non-quirked mechs it would pose a good strategy to take the weapon skill nodes away that makes the variant overperform.

edit -
cheapskate. interesting choice of insult. bc on my clan account i can remember that i dont have enough cbills to buy me a radar deprivation module and also because its a secondary so i switch one - ONE - radar deprivation module around on my mechs. i dont play it as often as a MAIN account.

Edited by Daemon04, 11 March 2017 - 03:42 PM.

[Trev Firestorm]

Lucky Rookie, on 10 March 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

So1ahma's skill tree design is superior to PGI's in every way. Let this be known.

Wow... This is vastly superior, very well thought out.

Edited by Trev Firestorm, 11 March 2017 - 09:55 AM.

[Cato Phoenix]

KingCobra, on 11 March 2017 - 09:29 AM, said:

The thing is MWO never needed skill trees to start with when you skilled up a mech under the old system you really never got any benefits until it was mastered and then it was only useful for the extra module slot if you could afford to buy it = A module.

I would assume most basic players never leveled up to elite so why do we need a more complicated and costly skill system when most wont even use it?

PGI should have put there resources into gaining new players and advertising the money they waste on dumb crap just amazes me.

Uh, this is almost completely backwards. Most players quickly fill out the basics on 3 variants and elite out the ones they're gonna use for double basics.

"Never got any benefits until it was mastered" - uh, nope. Most mechs are completely playable just elited out and sans modules. The mastery slot just gives +1 module, you generally have at least 3 module slots without lifting a finger.

[-Ramrod-]

S0ulReapr, on 10 March 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

So, keep the crutches?

They really aren't crutches. They are necessary to be somewhat competitive to Clan mechs. Because let's face it the IS has a lot of ****** mechs. Also the only crutches I see is meta builds...you know...PPCs and Gauss Rifles on anything that can hold them.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Cato Phoenix, on 11 March 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

Uh, this is almost completely backwards. Most players quickly fill out the basics on 3 variants and elite out the ones they're gonna use for double basics.

"Never got any benefits until it was mastered" - uh, nope. Most mechs are completely playable just elited out and sans modules. The mastery slot just gives +1 module, you generally have at least 3 module slots without lifting a finger.

Yeah, in the current system everyone starts out getting 3 variants, basicing them, electing the one they like best, then eliting it. The next step is to choose between mastering your Mech, or leaving it partially skilled and at a physical disadvantage against your opponents. Your method to attain peak performance is either:

A.) Work on the HUGE entry barriers for unlocking and installing modules (all the 10 of thousands of GXP and 15+ millions of Cbills) so they can master that mech,
Or
B.) Slap in the modules they already own. Done.

Why should new players have to hit this entry barrier wall before they can be on truly level footing with everyone? I know that elite is handy, but having elite + radar deprivation + advanced seismic sensor + range + cooldown modules is an obvious advantage. Nobody can deny that. New players will benefit immensely from the new system, where everyone has access to leveling their mech without entry barriers.

Who will benefit the most? Easy answer. The newest player. The cadet bonus will get them leveled in their first mech very quickly, whereas it would take a HUGE amount to grind to go from New Account - to - Modules Purchased and Ready.

I think the new skill tree is one of the best things to happen to the New Player Experience.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 11 March 2017 - 10:45 AM.

[Radkres]

O.o if They are worried about too many Cbills just getting old Why not introduce a Hard Mode where you have to repair and replace and reload your stuff after each battle that way if you want a more real feel you can feel the pain in your Cbills and mechs cause if you lost the match you still have to repair that mech. Just an idea like our Stock mode button in Group que.

[Tordin]

KingCobra, on 11 March 2017 - 09:29 AM, said:

The thing is MWO never needed skill trees to start with when you skilled up a mech under the old system you really never got any benefits until it was mastered and then it was only useful for the extra module slot if you could afford to buy it = A module.

Yeah. I only bothered to Elite my mechs, so I could double basic. I never cared for modules (only for testing) found them to be crutches, real pilots dont need crutches to be good. Yeah now with the new skill tree, thats a different story.

[Cpt Zaepp]

#ModuleSwappingCheapskates

[Arkhangel]

-Ramrod-, on 11 March 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

They really aren't crutches. They are necessary to be somewhat competitive to Clan mechs. Because let's face it the IS has a lot of ****** mechs. Also the only crutches I see is meta builds...you know...PPCs and Gauss Rifles on anything that can hold them.

Actually.. we did fine against Clans pre-quirks. problem is IGP basicallt forced PGI to put them in as a band-aid solution, rather than giving them time to actually figure out something that would have balanced things out better. those first Quirks were MASSIVELY overpowered on some mechs, Case in point, the WubBolt 5SS, LightningBolt 9S and Dragon 1N that had one AC/5 firing fast enough and hitting hard enough to be equivalent to four of them. You literally hardly ever saw anything in FW apart from those guys on the IS side, unless it was one of those non-crutch pilots who actually took the time to learn to effectively pilot a diff mech.

[-Ramrod-]

Arkhangel, on 11 March 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

Actually.. we did fine against Clans pre-quirks. problem is IGP basicallt forced PGI to put them in as a band-aid solution, rather than giving them time to actually figure out something that would have balanced things out better. those first Quirks were MASSIVELY overpowered on some mechs, Case in point, the WubBolt 5SS, LightningBolt 9S and Dragon 1N that had one AC/5 firing fast enough and hitting hard enough to be equivalent to four of them. You literally hardly ever saw anything in FW apart from those guys on the IS side, unless it was one of those non-crutch pilots who actually took the time to learn to effectively pilot a diff mech.

Eh I dunno...maybe it's just the people I hang out with but most everyone I know says the quirks were/are kinda needed. I do admit at first they were insanely OP. But let's face it the majority of people aren't skilled enough or adaptive enough to do well with certain mechs against Clan mechs. That's just me though.

Edited by -Ramrod-, 11 March 2017 - 12:21 PM.

[Edward Hazen]

-Ramrod-, on 11 March 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

They really aren't crutches. They are necessary to be somewhat competitive to Clan mechs. Because let's face it the IS has a lot of ****** mechs. Also the only crutches I see is meta builds...you know...PPCs and Gauss Rifles on anything that can hold them.

I will provide a more useful and less sarcastic response now, since it is coffee time and no longer beer time.

First off, in BattleTech the Inner - Sphere has:

- Mostly mechs that are more than 300 years old and have been continually repaired with salvage parts by people who have varying degrees of skill (backwater black matket tech, vs great house military tech, vs friend that tinkers).

- Mechwarriors who have varying degrees of experience and skill (this is where your skill in the game comes in).

- Starting to integrate loss-tech back into their mechs, but this is rare and expensive and mainly restricted to the most elite military units that have the most money and resources.

- Starting to once again produce new mechs built around loss-tech, but these are very rare and once again mainly restricted to the most elite military units that have the most money and resources. I will give a very brief summary:

The Clans Have -

- Never lost any tech and have only improved on Star League during the 300 years that they were in exile. Yes, there was infighting amongst the Clans, but their who society and infrastructure was built to minimize the loss of life and technology, so their infrastructure remained intact (for the most part) and their Mechs are supposed to be superior, especially since even the lowliest Solahma will be piloting a mech that had much more advanced tech than an IS pilot. Now, in MWO the Clan Tech is already greatly nerfed in order to give IS a chance as a tradeoff since Clans are not forced to fight according to Zellbrigen (although after Tukayyid the Clans only honored Zellbrigen if their opponent did).

- Clans have genetically engineered mechwarriors who are bred to be mechwarriors and who, for the most part do not have the home life distractions or concerns that most IS pilots have. Now this can never be accurately reproduced in this game unless the Clans are given incredible quirks, far beyond what the IS has (I do not advocate for this), however in MWO in real-life the Clans and IS have roughly the same chance of having a skilled player or a "potato".

Now, my idea for a lore solution is that the skill tree should work differently for Clans and IS and that neither Clan nor IS mechs should start with ANY quirks.

The IS skill tree should -

- Cost more to unlock skills in the beginning and get gradually cheaper as they progress through the skills (this would simulate the IS pilot learning to counter the Clans tactics and would simulate the IS pilot's adaptability).

- The "high-end" IS skills should also give better bonuses than the Clan skills (to simulate the IS pilot's adaptability and the Is techs' creativity).

The Clan skill tree should -

- Cost less in the beginning and the "low-end" Clan skills should provide better bonuses than the IS skills, but get gradually more expensive and the "high-end" skills should provide less of a bonus than the equivalent IS skills (this would simulate the "superior" genetics and superior training of the Clan mechwarriors, but would also simulate that the Clan warriors are more dogmatic and less "adaptable" than the IS warriors).


Ultimately this would start with the Clans being superior, but end up with Clans and IS being closer to parity by the end of the skill trees.

Edited by S0ulReapr, 11 March 2017 - 12:25 PM.

[Edward Hazen]

Also, on another note, I too find Russ' "cheapskate" comment a bit offensive. The loyal MWO customer who regularly spends money on this game is anything but a "cheapskate" since the purchase of a single, LEASED, mech costs more than most full AAA games (that will not cease to exist in time).
This "cheapskate" comment seems like a repeat of the "on an island" comment from the past and smacks of contempt and a bit of Marie Antoinette.

So when Russ is ready to make it up to us, are we going to get a "cheapskate" cockpit item, like the "island" one?

[K19]

Quirks Mechanical!! only hard core players know

Because they do not use this rule if there is in the drawing like the shield in the arm of the CN9 to easy

There have been some repairs but with the change of "Skill tree" and better review again.

Stop crying knowing that it does not help, help to get better the game is still very far from what it should be. For me and this 40% arcade 60% hard core to be equal to a large tank with legs

[Rogue Jedi]

S0ulReapr, on 11 March 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:

So when Russ is ready to make it up to us, are we going to get a "cheapskate" cockpit item, like the "island" one?

no, when Russ is ready to make it up to us we will get an "efficient" cockpit item, after all he later rebranded his cheepskate comment as efficient.

it will take up no space, will not use an item slot and will not block any of the cockpit or viewing area, you cannot get much more efficient than that.

I am sure it will take a while to finalise the design but it should be no work at all for PGI to implement.

[Marius Evander]

Insomnium80, on 11 March 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

I would like to suggest that PGI would consider giving a time window for a higher sell back price for mechs. The refund could be around 70%-90%.

This would compensate for the people who spent their c-bills for mechs and could sell back the ones they "never wanted" and they would get a considerable chunk of c-bills back to use on skill trees, versus the guys who actually bought the modules. This would level the c-bill investment for most types of earlier investment.

Example:

Errr you got the better deal being a cheapskate.
heres a real example.
Same cbills ; -
Player1 buys 2 groups of 3 mechs and masters them and buys modules for them,
Player2 buys 9 mechs and masters them but does not module them so gets to play a completely different mech and 3 variants more than the guy who bought modules.

Players who bought modules deserve compensation for this 3rd reduced cbills cost (the pts2 reduction was more than enough), for every 6 of the same module get a mechbay instead of cbills ? to spend all the rest of these cbills from modules we will have no use for.

Edited by Cadoazreal, 11 March 2017 - 02:44 PM.

[A21B]

I have 235 mechs and 113 modules a lot that came with the pre orders. basically one for each weapon I use and a few mech mods. I do have mmore then one of many cause, like I said they came with the packs...that I paid real money for... over 2000$. none of the mechs in my garage have any modules on them so I guess that makes me a cheapskate.

Chris said this game is not an rpg...am I crazy for thinking it is? its not an fps. it could be considered an mmo but were still playing the role of a mech pilot right? Russ also mentioned an economy in the game...skill'n up and buying guns and equipment is not the same thing but now we are going to buy our piloting skill.

chris was hired 6 months ago and he clearly has no idea about this game and the community. the game is about to become more unbalanced then ever.

Edited by A21B, 11 March 2017 - 02:50 PM.