339 replies to this topic

[Monkey Lover]

SilentWolff, on 16 March 2017 - 10:42 AM, said:

Im not a "clanner". Stop with that ridiculous argument. IS ERLL are superior to the Clan ERLL right now and its all because of the duration. They are unusable vs good pilots, period. Go ahead and stand out in the open for 1.5 seconds and watch yourself get r@ped against people using PPC's, IS ERLL or any pulse weapon. Its just not in a good place, end of story.

It has nothing to do with duration it has to do with very few maps can even use the range the cerl can provide. I seen a lot of people rock a clan erl on polar but thats about the only map we have for this.

If you don't like a cerl use a clpl as the clpl is basically an IS erl.

[Y E O N N E]

XxRingWraithxX, on 16 March 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

Again, the problem you see is with limiting effective mechs and weapons based upon fear, instead of increasing the number of effective weapons and mechs and letting play style war it out on the battlefield.

No. It is based on experience. You remember that Clan vs IS set of matches that convinced PGI to burn down the IS quirks? The one filled with DivA players? It is the same set of variables on the same class of weapon doing similar damage at the same ranges that you want to tweak. The TTK at range was absurdly low, rendering even more weapons less effective.

You seem to think the only way to increase the number of effective weapons is to make bad ones better. If there are mire bad ones than good ones, though, it is more logical to make the good ones worse. Effectiveness is relative.

But, to reiterate, I am not saying the cERLL doesn't need help, I am just advising caution.

[SilentWolff]

XxRingWraithxX, on 16 March 2017 - 10:47 AM, said:

I care, it has never been proven to be op so doing anything other than decreasing it's duration is unnecessary. What to do with the IS is another thing altogether.

Currently, the Clan ERLL does 11 damage. Dropping it to 10 and getting the duration somewhere around 1.10-1.25 seems reasonable to me. /shrug

[Pariah Devalis]

XxRingWraithxX, on 16 March 2017 - 10:47 AM, said:

I care, it has never been proven to be op so doing anything other than decreasing it's duration is unnecessary. What to do with the IS is another thing altogether.

It has never been proven to be a popular weapon, either, indicating it underperforms or is not capable of competing in the mwo battle environment. Just because a duration change is requested does not mean it will become op. Especially if given a raw damage decrease. There is a place between OP and UP, you know. Right now the place for the CERLas is the trash heap.

[Monkey Lover]

SilentWolff, on 16 March 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

Currently, the Clan ERLL does 11 damage. Dropping it to 10 and getting the duration somewhere around 1.10-1.25 seems reasonable to me. /shrug

lpl is at 1.12 how would 1.10 seem reasonable? if you dropped it to 10 dmg it would be 1.35 to keep the same balance.

[XxRingWraithxX]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 March 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

No. It is based on experience. You remember that Clan vs IS set of matches that convinced PGI to burn down the IS quirks? The one filled with DivA players? It is the same set of variables on the same class of weapon doing similar damage at the same ranges that you want to tweak. The TTK at range was absurdly low, rendering even more weapons less effective.

I don't recall Clan ER Large being in their original state for that Clan vs. IS test match up.

Yeonne Greene, on 16 March 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

You seem to think the only way to increase the number of effective weapons is to make bad ones better. If there are mire bad ones than good ones, though, it is more logical to make the good ones worse. Effectiveness is relative.

I respectfully disagree, If nerfing is the solution, the end result is one or two weapons that you are using, in this case, we call it "belly rubbing" bc you only have your stomach as a weapon left. lol

Yeonne Greene, on 16 March 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

But, to reiterate, I am not saying the cERLL doesn't need help, I am just advising caution.

I understand caution, in this case caution was turned into "never to be seen."

Edited by XxRingWraithxX, 16 March 2017 - 12:29 PM.

[SilentWolff]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 March 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

No. It is based on experience. You remember that Clan vs IS set of matches that convinced PGI to burn down the IS quirks? The one filled with DivA players? It is the same set of variables on the same class of weapon doing similar damage at the same ranges that you want to tweak. The TTK at range was absurdly low, rendering even more weapons less effective.

You seem to think the only way to increase the number of effective weapons is to make bad ones better. If there are mire bad ones than good ones, though, it is more logical to make the good ones worse. Effectiveness is relative.

But, to reiterate, I am not saying the cERLL doesn't need help, I am just advising caution.

Are we playing the same game? Whats the meta right now? PPC's and gauss right? So lets take the gauss outta the equation for a minute and talk about ERPPC's. ERPPC's have a longer range and are pinpoint damage. So how are ERPPC ok, yet Clan ERLL are somehow in a good place with 1.5 duration? Sorry, that makes no sense. Theres is reason you dont see people using Clan ERLL. Why would you stand in the open to do spread damage to a moving target, when you can just use PPC's and get pinpoint damage and only have to expose yourself for .5 seconds?

[XxRingWraithxX]

Pariah Devalis, on 16 March 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

It has never been proven to be a popular weapon, either, indicating it underperforms or is not capable of competing in the mwo battle environment. Just because a duration change is requested does not mean it will become op. Especially if given a raw damage decrease. There is a place between OP and UP, you know. Right now the place for the CERLas is the trash heap.

So decrease cl er duration. no need to mess with damage, heat or recycle. If the community thinks making it usable from unusable unbalances the game then balance the rest.

Edited by XxRingWraithxX, 16 March 2017 - 11:58 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

XxRingWraithxX, on 16 March 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:

I don't recall Clan ER Large being in their original state for that match up.

Instead, we had IS isERLL emulating launch-day cERLL. With IS XL engines.

Work it out.

Quote

I respectfully disagree, If nerfing is the solution, the end result is one or two weapons that you are using, in this case we call belly rubbing bc you only have your stomach as a weapon left. lol

Nope, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference except that now you find yourself under threat from weapons you used to roll your eyes at. That is how balancing works. We could go the other way, but that is more work for the same end result.

Bad equipment is bad obly when there is better equipment to compare against.

[Monkey Lover]

SilentWolff, on 16 March 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

Are we playing the same game? Whats the meta right now? PPC's and gauss right? So lets take the gauss outta the equation for a minute and talk about ERPPC's. ERPPC's have a longer range and are pinpoint damage. So how are ERPPC ok, yet Clan ERLL are somehow in a good place with 1.5 duration? Sorry, that makes no sense. Theres is reason you dont see people using Clan ERLL. Why would you stand in the open to do spread damage to a moving target, when you can just use PPC's and get pinpoint damage and only have to expose yourself for .5 seconds?

Lets make sure to get this right , right now CLAN erppc and gauss is meta. IS ppc isnt really used. Thats because Clan ppc needs nerf. Clan ppc gets 5 extra splash dmg for 0.5 heat and has a dps of 3.75 compared to 2.5 of the IS ppc. At the very least it needs a 33% cooldown nerf.


We need to look into the IS LPL too its little over powered.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 16 March 2017 - 11:25 AM.

[XxRingWraithxX]

XxRingWraithxX, on 16 March 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:

I don't recall Clan ER Large being in their original state for that Clan vs. IS test match up.

Yeonne Greene, on 16 March 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

Instead, we had IS isERLL emulating launch-day cERLL. With IS XL engines.

Work it out.

You may need to help me because I don't see the equality.

XxRingWraithxX, on 16 March 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:

I respectfully disagree, If nerfing is the solution, the end result is one or two weapons that you are using, in this case, we call it "belly rubbing" bc you only have your stomach as a weapon left. lol

Yeonne Greene, on 16 March 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

Nope, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference except that now you find yourself under threat from weapons you used to roll your eyes at. That is how balancing works. We could go the other way, but that is more work for the same end result.

Bad equipment is bad obly when there is better equipment to compare against.

I'd rather roll my eyes finding myself under threat from weapons and differing play styles than "belly rubbing" with only one or two viable options.

Increase the number of effective weapons, not decrease and balance.

More work? Possibly.

Better results? Yes.

Edited by XxRingWraithxX, 16 March 2017 - 12:30 PM.

[Tarogato]

I feel like the ERLL and cERLL are in an okay-ish place right now. But I reckon cERPPCs need to go back up to 15 heat, or lose some velocity.

edit: holy sheeit I just realised this thread was 7 pages long after commenting. D=

Edited by Tarogato, 16 March 2017 - 11:32 AM.

[Mcgral18]

SilentWolff, on 16 March 2017 - 10:42 AM, said:

IS ERLL are superior to the Clan ERLL right now and its all because of the duration.

False
Quirks

The Clam ERLL deals more damage in the same timeframe the isERLL does, at more range
Stacking 3 isERLLs does increase that, of course.
Clams can also fire 3 reasonably, at range (but certainly not sustainably)

That's also 15 tons of weapons against 8, or 12.

SilentWolff, on 16 March 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

Currently, the Clan ERLL does 11 damage. Dropping it to 10 and getting the duration somewhere around 1.10-1.25 seems reasonable to me. /shrug

Currently .73 Dam/tick
1.1s at 10 dam is .9 Dam/tick
10s at 1.25 is .8 Dam/tick


1.25 would probably be reasonable, with an increase from 3.25s cooldown up to 4.0
Recycle of 5 seconds, an extra 0.5s (+.75-.25)
DPS from 2.32 to 1.9
But both effective damage increased, as well as decreased exposure
Heat staying at 10, GH remaining at 2

Monkey Lover, on 16 March 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

lpl is at 1.12 how would 1.10 seem reasonable? if you dropped it to 10 dmg it would be 1.35 to keep the same balance.

cLPL could always get a damage decrease
It could go down to 10, with a pretty good duration


Or 5, and cut the cooldowns and burn times down to ~1/3
But that's probably too extreme

Edited by Mcgral18, 16 March 2017 - 11:44 AM.

[Deathlike]

Is there a point to asking our balance overlord to vacate/GTFO and get someone else that has a clue doing that job?

I mean at this point, that should be on the table, considering countless levels of embarrassing retweakings and consistent fail.

Quickdraws used to be an option with quirks, to then later be irrelevant post-requirkening.

Just thinking out loud.

Edited by Deathlike, 16 March 2017 - 03:40 PM.

[Khobai]

I personally think most lasers are fine and where they should be (cERLL burntime is pretty stupid though and it doesnt compete well with the cERPPC, but thats probably more the cERPPC's fault)

Its weapons like PPCs and Gauss that are problematic because of the FLPPD. PGI has still failed to address the problem of pinpoint damage and convergence.

Id personally like to see PPCs do more splash damage and Id like to see gauss do significantly less damage but instead have a random chance to armor pierce directly into internals.

Damage needs to get reduced or spread around more by those weapons. otherwise new weapons like heavy PPCs and heavy gauss are just going to make the problem even worse.

Edited by Khobai, 16 March 2017 - 03:57 PM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Yeah, 1.5 second burn time is stupid. Supernova feels pretty good with its 15% duration quirk, so I'd say bring it to 1.30 and see how it goes.

[Ultimax]

Tarogato, on 16 March 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

I feel like the ERLL and cERLL are in an okay-ish place right now. But I reckon cERPPCs need to go back up to 15 heat, or lose some velocity.

I may not agree with Silent wolf's overall numbers on his proposal, but to even pretend that CERLLAS have or have had a real role in any kind of recent (read over a year or more) competitive play OR the solo derp queue is fantasy.

The weapon has had no real place in the game for an extremely long time, and that is entirely due to it's 1.5s burn time. (And the IS ERLLAS is used specifically on a mech that has reduced burn time - otherwise it would struggle to trade more against KDKs, NTGs & TBRs)

It didn't have a place in the game when all PPCs were moronically nerfed into the ground and it doesn't have a place in the game now.

So he & Ringwraith are completely right on that point.



Secondly, I'm really shocked to see you suggest CERPPC nerfs. Do we never learn?


CERPPC + Gauss builds no longer have good competitors...because people keep whining for nerfs.

Laser boating was nerfed over a year ago now (and had countless nerfs leading up to that) and Dakka was recently nerfed making it a risky proposition at best that doesn't fulfill the role it needs to.


Nerfing PPCs means you take them out of the hands of already weaker mechs, we have seen this happen dozens of times over.

Reducing velocity isn't going to stop a NTG or KDK that can take a massive TC from using them, it will make them almost unusable for other mechs that can't though.


Balance isn't continually nerfing everything toward the lowest common denominator of derps, at some point you have to accept that weapons need to be able to be effective and kill stuff - nerfing things to where they are unwieldly doesn't actually achieve that.

Examples of those kinds of nerfs: Excessive burn times, ridiculous heat/ghost heat, RNG "Jam" mechanics, poor velocity.

Edited by Ultimax, 16 March 2017 - 04:41 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Secondly, I'm really shocked to see you suggest CERPPC nerfs. Do we never learn?

Actually if you read my full post I said I was mostly concerned with heavy PPCs and heavy gauss if pinpoint damage isnt addressed before theyre added to the game. pinpoint damage weapons in general need to spread their damage out more.

[Carl Vickers]

Khobai, on 16 March 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

Actually if you read my full post I said I was mostly concerned with heavy PPCs and heavy gauss if pinpoint damage isnt addressed before theyre added to the game. pinpoint damage weapons in general need to spread their damage out more.

Ugh, not many mechs are going to be able to mount that particular combo or even multiples of without being slow as. Once they do that they are light/med bait.

[MauttyKoray]

Mcgral18, on 15 March 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

**** that

That would be ridiculously OP


They're usable in their current form, I use a pair on a Mad 2C (with Gauss Rifles) to arguably good results.
They are not a universal weapon, they are restricted to Extreme range. They do have acceptable Dam/tick
Higher than the Spheroid ERLL, just without quirks

Thankfully, Clams don't need quirks to have good robots and weapons.

Could they be reduced? Sure, if you reduce the damage

Indeed, 1.0 would be OP.

I would actually toy with the idea of reducing the IS/Clan ERLLs to 1.4 and 1.2 respectively though. The 1.5 CERLL has is just horribly off putting especially when used in anything other than a durable mech with multiple CERLLs or a sniper of more paper-like material. As for the ERLL, I just think the .05 would keep the balance with CERLLs is all, nothing horribly wrong with their 1.25 burn time.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 16 March 2017 - 05:38 PM.