339 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 02:39 PM, said:

He needs to come back in the thread and enlighten us on all the mechs they use in comp that have Clan ERLL. But he wont do that because no one uses them in comp play. Now ask him why.

FFS, what is it with thickheaded people today, it doesn't mattter how much its used, no one is saying it shouldn't be buffed, what they are arguing about is the best way to do it. Sure you could buff duration, but that is a weird scenario for a couple of reasons:

• All the other Clan lasers have a decently longer duration than their IS counterparts.
  
• Trying to balance them at both ends of the spectrum ends up being difficult (basically 2x2 setups could end up being too powerful while 2x2x2 ends up still being weak).

Thus, the easiest scenario is to start by bumping the ghost heat limit FIRST, and continuing from there.

[Andi Nagasia]

if C-ERLL should get its duration reduced it should only be reduced to the same Tick Rate as IS-ERLL,
(1.25duration/9dam) 0.1389sec perDamage, so with that C-ERLL would have 1.53Duration,.... well um,
no i think we should Stick with 1.50Duration on the C-ERLL, and move GhostHeat up to 3Max,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 17 March 2017 - 06:15 PM.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Andi Nagasia, on 17 March 2017 - 06:15 PM, said:

if C-ERLL should get its duration reduced it should only be reduced to the same Tick Rate as IS-ERLL,
(1.25duration/9dam) 0.1389sec perDamage, so with that C-ERLL would have 1.53Duration,.... well um,
no i think we should Stick with 1.50Duration on the C-ERLL, and move GhostHeat up to 3Max,

Only if you restore the ghost heat threshold of IS (ER)large lasers to 4.

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 17 March 2017 - 06:17 PM.

[MischiefSC]

XxRingWraithxX, on 17 March 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:

If the introduction of Clan ER Large lasers did all that then yes, the others would need to be looked at. We are saying they were by no means op and should be returned to original drawn up values.

So, to be clear, you want to just change cerlls to 1 second, the same burn as IS LLs and cermls and mls, etc, while CLPLs are 1.25? Which will increase their damage/tic by 50%? No probpems, right?

They were absolutely OP, which is why they got the burn duration increase. CLPLs we're the pointless weapon then, cerlls were the go-to weapon.

Go back to command chair post, click the discussion feedback link at the bottom, look at why it happened.

You guys remind me why PGI doesn't read the forums.

[XxRingWraithxX]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

FFS, what is it with thickheaded people today, it doesn't mattter how much its used, no one is saying it shouldn't be buffed, what they are arguing about is the best way to do it. Sure you could buff duration, but that is a weird scenario for a couple of reasons:

• All the other Clan lasers have a decently longer duration than their IS counterparts.
  
• Trying to balance them at both ends of the spectrum ends up being difficult (basically 2x2 setups could end up being too powerful while 2x2x2 ends up still being weak).

Thus, the easiest scenario is to start by bumping the ghost heat limit FIRST, and continuing from there.

I believe the easiest scenario is to bring it back to where it was first, before its duration was unnecessarily increased.

Edited by XxRingWraithxX, 17 March 2017 - 07:10 PM.

[FupDup]

XxRingWraithxX, on 17 March 2017 - 07:02 PM, said:

I believe the easiest scenario is to bring it back to where it was first, before its duration was unnecessarily increased.

Its duration is already at its original invasion launch values. It was never lower than 1.5 seconds.

[Snazzy Dragon]

XxRingWraithxX, on 17 March 2017 - 07:02 PM, said:

I believe the easiest scenario is to bring it back to where it was first, before its duration was unnecessarily increased.

The duration was never lower than 1.5 seconds. It only was as powerful as it was on release because the heat generated over time was less severe, and you could fire them pretty much nonstop. The optimal and max ranges were also longer. cXL also had no heat/movement penalties yet.

[XxRingWraithxX]

Snazzy Dragon, on 17 March 2017 - 07:20 PM, said:

The duration was never lower than 1.5 seconds. It only was as powerful as it was on release because the heat generated over time was less severe, and you could fire them pretty much nonstop. The optimal and max ranges were also longer. cXL also had no heat/movement penalties yet.

In the beginning, I'm almost positive it was lower than 1.5

Edited by XxRingWraithxX, 17 March 2017 - 07:25 PM.

[Deathlike]

XxRingWraithxX, on 17 March 2017 - 07:24 PM, said:

In the beginning it was lower than 1.5

I think it was either the same or slightly lower.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 17 March 2017 - 07:25 PM, said:

I think it was either the same or slightly lower.

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__3619518

Quote

[color=orange]Next up, the Clan ER Large Laser.[/color]

The Clan ER Large Laser has been on the nerfing radar for a while. It is firing in almost heat neutral Clan heavy/assault builds. It also has a very long range with a relatively short beam duration. To fix this weapon and make it have the firing attributes we would expect it to have, the following changes have been made.

• C-ERLL beam duration increased from 1.5 -> 2.0 seconds.
  
• C-ERLL base heat value increased from 8.5 -> 9.0.
  
• C-ERLL minimum heat penalty (number of weapons fired simultaneously that will trigger Heat Scale) decreased from 3 -> 2. This means you can fire 1 for free, but firing 2 or more will incur the Heat Scale penalty.
  
• C-ERLL heat penalty (Heat Scale multiplier) increased from 3.0 -> 12.0.

What this has produced in testing:


The numbers sound drastic, but the only one that makes a noticible change is the beam duration increase. Holding a beam at long range is going to require high player skill to get full damage on target.

The amount of heat being generated by such a powerful and long range weapon is severely out of sync with the rest of the game. Testing this weapon on default loadout Clan 'Mechs showed that the amount of heat being generated is near negligible. The Heat Scale numbers make the weapon start to blip on the heat meter. It's not really high enough yet but we will start low and work our way up.

The limit of 1 Clan-ER Large Laser for free is assocated with the findings from above. Even with this new minimum heat penalty setting, firing 2 Clan-ER Large Lasers still makes the weapon just start to blip on the heat meter. As always, we will be monitoring this weapon system very closely as to its effectiveness on the battlefield.

Right under that is another post where they roll ghost heat back to 2 and leave it at 1.5 beam duration.

However with the low heat it had, incredible range and minimal weight and size it was OP as **** when it came out. Hence all the nerfs, even with a 1.5 beam duration.

At the bottom is the discussion link.

Because amazingly enough rather than just pretend that things work a certain way or were a certain way you can actually go effing LOOK AT THE THREADS about it and the original discussions and see what reality was.

Inconvenient I know.

[XxRingWraithxX]

MischiefSC, on 17 March 2017 - 07:50 PM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__3619518



Right under that is another post where they roll ghost heat back to 2 and leave it at 1.5 beam duration.

However with the low heat it had, incredible range and minimal weight and size it was OP as **** when it came out. Hence all the nerfs, even with a 1.5 beam duration.

At the bottom is the discussion link.

Because amazingly enough rather than just pretend that things work a certain way or were a certain way you can actually go effing LOOK AT THE THREADS about it and the original discussions and see what reality was.

Inconvenient I know.

I was almost certain it came out with the introduction of the clans in the beginning of 2014 at below 1.5. I can't find patch notes before Aug 2014 so I could be wrong but I know the IS ER Large duration was at 1.0 for sure and was bumped up.

[XxRingWraithxX]

MischiefSC, on 17 March 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

So, to be clear, you want to just change cerlls to 1 second, the same burn as IS LLs and cermls and mls, etc, while CLPLs are 1.25? Which will increase their damage/tic by 50%? No probpems, right?

They were absolutely OP, which is why they got the burn duration increase. CLPLs we're the pointless weapon then, cerlls were the go-to weapon.

Go back to command chair post, click the discussion feedback link at the bottom, look at why it happened.

You guys remind me why PGI doesn't read the forums.

I think 1.25 might be a good fit for CL ER Large. What we have to do with other weapons to make this one at least playable is up in the air.

Although I am an advocate of buffing not nerfing weapons first, so they also can be used.

Cl ER Large was never OP, only deemed OP by their performance in public drops that had no idea how to counter the range at the time of their introduction.

Edited by XxRingWraithxX, 17 March 2017 - 09:30 PM.

[Mcgral18]

XxRingWraithxX, on 17 March 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

Why would damage need to be reduced?

Because then it becomes too good, unless you want to gimp it other ways
To keep the damage, you could have a 6 second recycle

Or, drop the damage
It would encroach severely on the cLPLs place with only a duration decrease

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 05:40 PM, said:

This thread is dedicated to ERLL, did you miss the thread title? You can go talk about all the other weapons in another thread.
And Ive already proved my point. As I said, your a tier 2 scrub who really doesnt understand top tier gameplay. So Im done trying to talk any sense into you.

You've proven you're an ******, but not much else
You WANT the cERLL duration decreased, but aside from "Not taken in Comp" you've failed to provide anything

You do need to provide logical conclusions to your thoughts as well
Like how, if you decrease the duration, you'll also need to nerf other parts of it (damage, cooldown being not very severe changes)

XxRingWraithxX, on 17 March 2017 - 09:11 PM, said:

I was almost certain it came out with the introduction of the clans in the beginning of 2014 at below 1.5. I can't find patch notes before Aug 2014 so I could be wrong but I know the IS ER Large duration was at 1.0 for sure and was bumped up.

I tried looking, found nothing


Could try asking Heffay
I know he's backed up some of the Mech models, may have included Weapons.XML. Can't say how far back, though. Or Smurfy's, but the site only lists 4 backup patches.
My earliest is December 2014, long after the nerfs.


Hey, I found it!
Launch was the 14th, IIRC
Closest was the 19th


More damage, more range, same duration, less heat
https://web.archive....et.de/equipment

[MischiefSC]

XxRingWraithxX, on 17 March 2017 - 09:11 PM, said:

I was almost certain it came out with the introduction of the clans in the beginning of 2014 at below 1.5. I can't find patch notes before Aug 2014 so I could be wrong but I know the IS ER Large duration was at 1.0 for sure and was bumped up.

No.

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__3457319

That was from the PTS prior to public release of the mechs even.

Quote

well
CERLL: 11,25/1,5 =7,5dps
CLPL: 11,8/1,3 = 9,07 dps.

[XxRingWraithxX]

MischiefSC, on 17 March 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

No.

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__3457319

That was from the PTS prior to public release of the mechs even.

That was June, I thought they came out in Dec 2013 or Jan 2014. Maybe it was released in June

Edited by XxRingWraithxX, 17 March 2017 - 09:35 PM.

[MischiefSC]

XxRingWraithxX, on 17 March 2017 - 09:18 PM, said:

I think 1.25 might be a good fit for CL ER Large. What we have to do with other weapons to make this one at least playable is up in the air.

Although I am an advocate of buffing not nerfing weapons first, so they also can be used.

They were never OP, only deemed OP by their performance in public drops that had no idea how to counter the range.

What someone thinks or feels really doesn't mean anything. People think and feel LRMs are OP.

You reduce beam duration then you need to reduce damage by the same % or else it's significantly superior to IS ERLLs and replaces the CLPL, because almost identical burn time and damage/tic for 30% less weight and 1/2 the slots, so 4 tons and 2 slots saved.

So many issues you're creating. Balance can't happen in a vacuum.

[XxRingWraithxX]

MischiefSC, on 17 March 2017 - 09:43 PM, said:

You reduce beam duration then you need to reduce damage by the same % or else it's significantly superior to IS ERLLs

ER Large duration can also go back down to what I know for sure was 1.0 before we increased also unnecessarily to 1.25. Does the nerf not also have consequences?

Edited by XxRingWraithxX, 17 March 2017 - 10:03 PM.

[MischiefSC]

XxRingWraithxX, on 17 March 2017 - 09:46 PM, said:

ER Large duration can also go back down to what I know for sure was 1.0 before they increased also unnecessarily to 1.25. Does the nerf not also have consequences?

No. They discussed it in Dec 2013, PTS testing was the last quote I made.

IS ERLLs went to 1.25 at the same time Clan CERLL were GOING to be pushed out to 2.0 seconds, but were kept at 1.5.

I've found and linked to posts from PGI and players in the original pre-release PTS showing that it was 1.5. You are absolutely incorrect if you think it was lower.

It was always 1.5, because that actually balances it vs CLPLs, CERMLs, ISLL, IS ERLL, et al laser weapons. Yes, that makes it pretty crappy - because it's 4 tons and 1 slot. If it was able to compete with the 6 ton 2 slot CLPL or CERPPC, it would replace them. Plus it would utterly out-perform the IS ERLL (which already is only used on 2 super-quirked variants).

What 'you know' means nothing. Show it. Examples. Then why don't you show the math of what that will look like in existing game balance.

[Y E O N N E]

XxRingWraithxX, on 17 March 2017 - 09:46 PM, said:

ER Large duration can also go back down to what I know for sure was 1.0 before they increased to 1.25.

And then what becomes of the standard LL after that since, y'know, having a shorter duration is the only reason you don't just take ERLL all the time?

[Mcgral18]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 March 2017 - 10:08 PM, said:

And then what becomes of the standard LL after that since, y'know, having a shorter duration is the only reason you don't just take ERLL all the time?

But then you can bring down the normal isLL!
But then that encroaches on the isLPL, so you can drop that too!


Do the Creep!
Reasonable values can be done, with downsides. Dropping without any other touches is a no-no