339 replies to this topic

[Mawai]

SilentWolff, on 15 March 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

Umm that has nothing to do with anything. The game has a foundation its built on. Your opinion is irrelevant. ( in this instance anyway)

LOL. It has everything to do with it. MWO is NOT Battletech. PERIOD. If you want Battletech then I would suggest the new game from HBS.

MWO is a real time, team based, first person shooter in which teams of 12 are formed from the available players and the only balancing mechanisms are mech weight class and a fairly poor metric of pilot skill. What this means is that in MWO, the video game, in order for the game to be reasonably balanced and fun for all, that mechs of the same weight class should have somewhat similar contributions to make to the play of the game. As a result, some idiotic, lore based idea of weapon balance is completely irrelevant to MWO the first person, real time team based, shooter because it is NOT Battletech the board game and has completely different balance requirements ... in particular, that although clans and IS function differently, they need to be roughly comparable in performance by weight class in order to create a game that has even a minimum level of balance and is fun for all players.

So .. at least in my opinion .. the foundation the game is based on (Battletech the board game) is pretty much irrelevant when it comes to producing a decently balanced MWO real time team based video game .. it is simply there for flavour

[MischiefSC]

There's a world of difference between a comp tier player who plays whatever works best, IS or Clan (and are universally the strongest proponents of good balancing) and someone saying Clans should be OP. Please point me to a top tier competitive player who argues or has argued for Clans being OP.

OP clan tech is bad, is broken, and never made good game design sense. Hence why the idea was abandoned in favor of 1 to 1 balance even in TT. Plot armor was never a good balancing mechanic and as such they had to literally nuke the game world and start over.

[Shifty McSwift]

How about just let Clan mechs fire 3 CERLL before ghost heat? They would still be hot as balls to run, but not give a weird advantage to IS ERLL over the clan variant.

[Rakshasa]

Mister Blastman, on 15 March 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

Who the heck cares about balance when we're comparing technology? Better tech = better stupf! Battletech TT is clear. Clan is BETTER.

Clan was also a mistake that the designer of BattleTech regrets and would rewrite if they could, if I remember rightly.

[MischiefSC]

Rakshasa, on 23 March 2017 - 05:42 PM, said:

Clan was also a mistake that the designer of BattleTech regrets and would rewrite if they could, if I remember rightly.

No, it was how they were balanced and introduced that he apologized for if memory serves. Was in the 90s, before interwbz magic made everything forever.

Since the nerdrage that caused nobody will comment on it.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 23 March 2017 - 06:16 PM, said:

No, it was how they were balanced and introduced that he apologized for if memory serves. Was in the 90s, before interwbz magic made everything forever.

Since the nerdrage that caused nobody will comment on it.

It's more like people are trying to use alternative facts to keep Clans OP.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 23 March 2017 - 06:21 PM, said:

It's more like people are trying to use alternative facts to keep Clans OP.

Looks like I'm IS again. But I just got the scorch

2xlb20x, 4xsrm6. 72kph. Tanky. 88 alpha back to back or 3 with a slight delay. TOTALLY not OPAF. Well, entertaining AF.

Just no truly amazing IS dakka options except the barn door super slow Mauler. Or a match for the HBK IIC, or Nova. However the Whammy is always fun. Would be nice to get a "worth putting in your deck" IS mech sometime.

[Rakshasa]

MischiefSC, on 23 March 2017 - 06:16 PM, said:

No, it was how they were balanced and introduced that he apologized for if memory serves. Was in the 90s, before interwbz magic made everything forever.

Since the nerdrage that caused nobody will comment on it.

Sorry, I should have said Clan tech balance. My bad

[Tarogato]

Mawai, on 23 March 2017 - 05:00 PM, said:

LOL. It has everything to do with it. MWO is NOT Battletech. PERIOD. If you want Battletech then I would suggest the new game from HBS.

MWO is a real time, team based, first person shooter in which teams of 12 are formed from the available players and the only balancing mechanisms are mech weight class and a fairly poor metric of pilot skill. What this means is that in MWO, the video game, in order for the game to be reasonably balanced and fun for all, that mechs of the same weight class should have somewhat similar contributions to make to the play of the game. As a result, some idiotic, lore based idea of weapon balance is completely irrelevant to MWO the first person, real time team based, shooter because it is NOT Battletech the board game and has completely different balance requirements ... in particular, that although clans and IS function differently, they need to be roughly comparable in performance by weight class in order to create a game that has even a minimum level of balance and is fun for all players.

So .. at least in my opinion .. the foundation the game is based on (Battletech the board game) is pretty much irrelevant when it comes to producing a decently balanced MWO real time team based video game .. it is simply there for flavour

[Wildstreak]

SilentWolff, on 15 March 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

My proposal:

Inner sphere ERLL current duration 1.25. Proposed duration 1.00
Clan ERLL current duration 1.5 Proposed duration 1.00

I also think durations should be normalized. You can only use 2 Clan ERLL without ghost heat, while IS ERLL can use 3. So while you get slightly better range and damage, its not enough to punish the weapon with such a long duration.

Community thoughts?

No.
Let me rephrase that.
Hell to the No.
Add a Cooldown module, watch what happens.

[Shifty McSwift]

Wildstreak, on 23 March 2017 - 07:40 PM, said:

No.
Let me rephrase that.
Hell to the No.
Add a Cooldown module, watch what happens.

Well firstly that would require spending c-bills on what is essentially a big blurry question mark, secondly IS can equip a cooldown module too so it still ends up the same really, or am I missing something?

[Y E O N N E]

Shifty McSwift, on 23 March 2017 - 07:44 PM, said:

Well firstly that would require spending c-bills on what is essentially a big blurry question mark, secondly IS can equip a cooldown module too so it still ends up the same really, or am I missing something?

The slot and weight penalty on the trio of IS lasers, is what you are missing.

15 tons and 6 slots vs. 8 tons and two slots, for 3x isERLL vs. 2x cERLL. The IS combo should be better for almost twice the weight.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 23 March 2017 - 07:50 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 March 2017 - 07:49 PM, said:

The slot and weight penalty on the trio of IS lasers, is what you are missing.

15 tons and 6 slots vs. 8 tons and two slots, for 3x isERLL vs. 2x cERLL. The IS combo should be better for almost twice the weight.

?

By that logic all weapons should be rebalanced to match that feeling of "betterness" from the clan benefits of weight and space. The clan variants lose out on heat in many cases already too, they might do more damage but they generally run hotter at a rate that doesn't pay off the extra damage.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 23 March 2017 - 08:39 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Phoolan Devi, on 23 March 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

Just because you don't understand it or haven't read the books doesn't mean it's bad, broken or lacks of sense!

Giant, easy to spot robots with glaring weak points are superior to tanks in every way because why exactly?

Big ballistic weapons have shorter range than small ones because why exactly?

Mech-mounted "Long Range" missiles have shorter range than current man-portable guided missiles for what reason, exactly?

[Phoolan Devi]

Mawai, on 23 March 2017 - 05:00 PM, said:

If you want Battletech then I would suggest the new game from HBS.

.......and even that game sucks big at it since they use values they probably pulled from where the sun don't shine.

What was the problem for HBS to use actual TT values? Just because they don't I definately will not play this game!

[Dogstar]

If anything laser duration should be made _longer_, albeit with a compensating shorter cooldown.

Although then that would overly benefit the PPFLD meta...

So it looks like we're stuck with what we've got

[FupDup]

Phoolan Devi, on 24 March 2017 - 12:12 AM, said:

.......and even that game sucks big at it since they use values they probably pulled from where the sun don't shine.

What was the problem for HBS to use actual TT values? Just because they don't I definately will not play this game!

HBS is trying to capture the spirit of Battletech, not the letter of it. Given that Jordan W. himself (one of the CO-FOUNDERS of the freaking IP) is working on the game with them, even he agrees that the raw item stats of TT are flawed.

Stop being a purist and try looking at things objectively rather than having a mindset of "TT was always right, because reasons."

Edited by FupDup, 24 March 2017 - 03:17 AM.

[Almond Brown]

SilentWolff, on 15 March 2017 - 04:13 PM, said:

Why shouldnt they be the same duration? Sure, clan does more damage and range, but its minimal. On top of that, when you factor ghost heat and the fact you can only shoot 2 erll, while IS can shoot 3, I call it a wash. Explain why you think it isnt?

Well let's make the Clan version a 2 slot weapon then, why not right?

[Mawai]

Tarogato, on 23 March 2017 - 07:08 PM, said:

It is a "Battletech game" ... it isn't now and never has been claimed to be Battletech. The same goes for ALL of the previous MechWarrior game titles. They have never been "Battletech" either. The only saving grace for the previous MW titles is that they were primarily PvE and so did not in general have any concerns about overall game balance. That was the reason why almost all of those games started with a 20 ton mech and progressed to the most powerful 100 ton mech that you could field.

MWO, as a team PvP game, has vastly different balance requirements ... which unfortunately, PGI did not seem to realize before they released clans into the game. PGI has been trying to recover from the bungled balance introduced when they first released the clans for the last several years. They appear to be praying that they can use new tech and an updated time line to finally bring the IS into a closer balance without having massive clan nerfs. However, in my opinion, they will still need to increase cooldowns and reduce dps across the board in order to avoid much shorter time to kill as they introduce new tech.

[Y E O N N E]

Shifty McSwift, on 23 March 2017 - 08:37 PM, said:

?

By that logic all weapons should be rebalanced to match that feeling of "betterness" from the clan benefits of weight and space. The clan variants lose out on heat in many cases already too, they might do more damage but they generally run hotter at a rate that doesn't pay off the extra damage.

1.) The Clan variants do not lose out on heat when you account for the number of DHS the most potent builds can bring; the meta-vomit Black Knight has the same heat profile as the meta-vomit Timberwolf, for example, actually inferior until you apply the 10% quirk. And we haven't even factored in the range advantage yet.

2.) Yes, that is exactly right, the weapons do need to be re-balanced to allow them to compete more evenly for dislike requirements. Not seeing a problem, here.