90 replies to this topic

[TheArisen]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 March 2017 - 11:27 AM, said:

Exactly. Super fast for weight, high hard points, laser vomit with lots of room for heatsinks and should be pretty slender.

So basically the DFire would be as unique, if not more so, than the Lancelot and it'd be the stronger mech.

[Bishop Steiner]

TheArisen, on 19 March 2017 - 01:33 PM, said:

So basically the DFire would be as unique, if not more so, than the Lancelot and it'd be the stronger mech.

Really? What's so unique or special about it?

More meta? Possibly. But I don't see anything it does we don't already have well covered. Again you can like it all you want. I'm simply stating my opinion.

The Dfire is about as unappealing a choice as one could possibly offer, IMO.

[TheArisen]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 March 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

Really? What's so unique or special about it?

More meta? Possibly. But I don't see anything it does we don't already have well covered. Again you can like it all you want. I'm simply stating my opinion.

The Dfire is about as unappealing a choice as one could possibly offer, IMO.

It's a good IS heavy with ecm. Ballistic arms for dual gauss or other ballistic, no other 75t or 70 or 80t can duplicate it. Torso that'd likely spread DMG very well, etc

[Bishop Steiner]

TheArisen, on 19 March 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

It's a good IS heavy with ecm. Ballistic arms for dual gauss or other ballistic, no other 75t or 70 or 80t can duplicate it. Torso that'd likely spread DMG very well, etc

whatever helps you sleep at night. Yay...let's have even more stand around and peek boring bullcrap than we already do!!! Much wow!

Again, ain't nothing wrong with wanting what you want... but I'm not allowed to not like it? We have plenty of mechs in game I could give a crap less about. This would just be another. So apologies if I ain't cheerleading for you.

I presume after that we need the Maelstrom because it's unique and a special snowflake too?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 March 2017 - 03:24 PM.

[Lupis Volk]

Why won't people think of the silly IS mechs we could have!?!

[FLG 01]

TheArisen, on 19 March 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

It's a good IS heavy with ecm. Ballistic arms for dual gauss or other ballistic, no other 75t or 70 or 80t can duplicate it. Torso that'd likely spread DMG very well, etc

Indeed. Neither Rifleman nor JägerMech have enough tonnage to run dual gauss truly effectively; JM can technically do it but if it does it lacks secondary armament.
Dual (U)AC/20 might also be interesting, even though its geometry is less than perfect for brawling.

Bishop Steiner, on 19 March 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

I presume after that we need the Maelstrom because it's unique and a special snowflake too?

A Marauder-like shaped heavy Mech with 8 energy HP, plus high engine cap, plus ECM - yes please!
Also a huge success in the lore, it was very popular with the LAAF, AFFS, and DCMS.

And as a Lyran I deeply love the concept of a 75 ton scout. I'd take it before the Dragonfire actually.

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 March 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

whatever helps you sleep at night. Yay...let's have even more stand around and peek boring bullcrap than we already do!!! Much wow!

The Dragonfire isn't a peaking 'Mech, it's a push 'Mech. That's why we want it. There are no 75 ton push 'Mechs on the IS side. We've got one peaky pokey 'Mech, one stand-off 'Mech, and one brawly 'Mech.

Thanatos might work, but don't get depressed when the missile slot gets ignored and the only variant used is the 4T. With ECM. It's also a barn door as wide as an Awesome.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 March 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

The Dragonfire isn't a peaking 'Mech, it's a push 'Mech. That's why we want it. There are no 75 ton push 'Mechs on the IS side. We've got one peaky pokey 'Mech, one stand-off 'Mech, and one brawly 'Mech.

Thanatos might work, but don't get depressed when the missile slot gets ignored and the only variant used is the 4T. With ECM. It's also a barn door as wide as an Awesome.

Slow mech, with Marauderesque hit boxes and high hard points and ECM.... Nope, nobody will be peaking with that combo, not at all.

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 March 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

Slow mech, with Marauderesque hit boxes and high hard points and ECM.... Nope, nobody will be peaking with that combo, not at all.

A.) You can go up to a 360 on it.

B.) Pushing doesn't mean fast

C.) As if nobody is going to be poking with the 'Mechs on your own list, eh?

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 March 2017 - 03:38 PM, said:

A.) You can go up to a 360 on it.

B.) Pushing doesn't mean fast

C.) As if nobody is going to be poking with the 'Mechs on your own list, eh?

I'm sure they could, although the only one with the hard points to really do it also is a very fast 60 tonner. You're the one saying they a mech almost perfectly designed for poking is a push machine, despite pushing pretty much negating it's geometry advantage.

[C E Dwyer]

Sorry nipple lasers are bad enough. I can't support a mech design that is in possession of a dong shaped auto cannon

[FLG 01]

Just a small note: Mark Nicholson, PGI 3d artist, voted for the Dragon Fire:
https://mwomercs.com...mech-pack-poll/

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 March 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:

I'm sure they could, although the only one with the hard points to really do it also is a very fast 60 tonner. You're the one saying they a mech almost perfectly designed for poking is a push machine, despite pushing pretty much negating it's geometry advantage.

Pushing doesn't negate geo advantage. Pushing is a front-forward game, and it'll be way better at it than the Warhammer because the latter has easily isolated sides. It'll also be better at it than the Marauder because the Marauder has really crappy hard-point placement for its multiple ballistics and it's the ballistics that let it push.

The purebred poke Machine for the IS would be the Toyama. If any 'Mech is hyper-poke-meta, it's that one with its perfect hardpoint placement for 2xPPC+Gauss, perfect geo to corner peak and twist away, and even ECM. That said, IMHO it's also more interesting than the DFire because it has missiles, too.

Lancelot isn't the only poke 'Mech in your lineup on Page 2; a 'Mech doesn't have to be ideal for that to be the predominant mode of play for the chassis. Just look at the Thunderbolt. It's really a failing of the map design and quirk system that other modes are so niche as to be ineffective. Crusader, Grand Dragon, Bandersnatch, Thanatos, Hammerhands, Argus (I would love the Argus to be in this game, mind you) are all pre-dispositioned for poke.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 19 March 2017 - 03:58 PM.

[MacClearly]

I would buy. I think they would 'alter' one of the hardpoints though....

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 March 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

Pushing doesn't negate geo advantage. Pushing is a front-forward game, and it'll be way better at it than the Warhammer because the latter has easily isolated sides. It'll also be better at it than the Marauder because the Marauder has really crappy hard-point placement for its multiple ballistics and it's the ballistics that let it push.

The purebred poke Machine for the IS would be the Toyama. If any 'Mech is hyper-poke-meta, it's that one with its perfect hardpoint placement for 2xPPC+Gauss, perfect geo to corner peak and twist away, and even ECM. That said, IMHO it's also more interesting than the DFire because it has missiles, too.

Lancelot isn't the only poke 'Mech in your lineup on Page 2; a 'Mech doesn't have to be ideal for that to be the predominant mode of play for the chassis. Just look at the Thunderbolt. It's really a failing of the map design and quirk system that other modes are so niche as to be ineffective. Crusader, Grand Dragon, Bandersnatch, Thanatos, Hammerhands, Argus (I would love the Argus to be in this game, mind you) are all pre-dispositioned for poke.

Pushing also puts you at greater risk of a flank, at least if the opfor has brains or balls, which as such, puts your geometry advantage in jeopardy.

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 March 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

Pushing also puts you at greater risk of a flank, at least if the opfor has brains or balls, which as such, puts your geometry advantage in jeopardy.

Well that's the trick, isn't it? You aren't supposed to be pushing if the enemy has your flanks covered well enough for that to be an issue. That's what your Lights and, to a lesser extent, your Mediums are supposed to deal with through information and firepower. No 'Mech is perfect, there are always some tradeoffs you have to make. A Warhammer is better at trading, but a Marauder is better at pushing. Which one is more important to you? That's for your team and your strat to decide.

In many respects, a high-level MWO match (actually, even PUG matches TBQH) is a lot like a match in DotA2. You start off with the "laning" phase where your carries buff up, though instead of leveling up they do it through eroding more of the other team's armor through trades. Lights are constantly searching for a gank opportunity, Mediums harass, Heavies pop out when a worthy target presents itself, and Assaults draw fire. When your carries gain a significant enough advantage, the match kicks into the mobile phase where one team presses on the other until the latter is dead. Ideally, the mode is Conquest so there are cap points providing constant pressure, requiring movement to keep control of a majority of the points.

To wit, the geometry of the DFire, and the Marauder, is actually bad for the trading phase because during this part of a match you don't know where the shots are going to come from and a surprise hit to your large flank ends you. It's a problem the Timberwolf has to deal with right now, but the cXL mitigates it somewhat.

If we had more short-range maps, we'd have more fast-paced, brawl-push matches and that's dramatically different from what I described above. High hardpoints are nowhere near as valuable there, and IS have plenty of competent machines for this type of match and many of the machines in your list would thrive here as well.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 19 March 2017 - 06:59 PM.

[TheArisen]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 March 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

whatever helps you sleep at night. Yay...let's have even more stand around and peek boring bullcrap than we already do!!! Much wow!

Again, ain't nothing wrong with wanting what you want... but I'm not allowed to not like it? We have plenty of mechs in game I could give a crap less about. This would just be another. So apologies if I ain't cheerleading for you.

I presume after that we need the Maelstrom because it's unique and a special snowflake too?

You don't have to like it, it doesn't hurt me. I didn't mean to come off that way, I was just curious.

Cathy, on 19 March 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

Sorry nipple lasers are bad enough. I can't support a mech design that is in possession of a dong shaped auto cannon

Good thing it doesn't have one then because that's a LLas. I'm pretty certain Pgi would modify that HP if the DFire made it in game.

[TheArisen]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 March 2017 - 06:59 PM, said:

Well that's the trick, isn't it? You aren't supposed to be pushing if the enemy has your flanks covered well enough for that to be an issue. That's what your Lights and, to a lesser extent, your Mediums are supposed to deal with through information and firepower. No 'Mech is perfect, there are always some tradeoffs you have to make. A Warhammer is better at trading, but a Marauder is better at pushing. Which one is more important to you? That's for your team and your strat to decide.

In many respects, a high-level MWO match (actually, even PUG matches TBQH) is a lot like a match in DotA2. You start off with the "laning" phase where your carries buff up, though instead of leveling up they do it through eroding more of the other team's armor through trades. Lights are constantly searching for a gank opportunity, Mediums harass, Heavies pop out when a worthy target presents itself, and Assaults draw fire. When your carries gain a significant enough advantage, the match kicks into the mobile phase where one team presses on the other until the latter is dead. Ideally, the mode is Conquest so there are cap points providing constant pressure, requiring movement to keep control of a majority of the points.

To wit, the geometry of the DFire, and the Marauder, is actually bad for the trading phase because during this part of a match you don't know where the shots are going to come from and a surprise hit to your large flank ends you. It's a problem the Timberwolf has to deal with right now, but the cXL mitigates it somewhat.

If we had more short-range maps, we'd have more fast-paced, brawl-push matches and that's dramatically different from what I described above. High hardpoints are nowhere near as valuable there, and IS have plenty of competent machines for this type of match and many of the machines in your list would thrive here as well.

I'm not sure I'd say the DFire would be bad for trading but I would agree it's not the absolute best. Although if you know where the enemy is you would be able to take advantage of the torso shape quite well.

[ice trey]

TheArisen, on 17 March 2017 - 10:26 PM, said:

if the IS got a mech of comparable quality to the Clan ones it'd improve balance.

Not at all, it wouldn't.
Well, you'd have exactly that... A mech that can compete with clantech, while the rest, not so much. You've now got the inner sphere with one mech that outshines everything else in it's weight class, so that would sabotage any attempts at balancing the equipment itself, because while everyone is now clamouring to use the new hotness, everything else is now derided as "Garbage".

The IS mechs not being able to compete are far less an issue with clan mechs, but the technology they've been equipped with. One-upping the other guy with a mech arms-race isn't going to balance the game. When Rock beats both paper and scissors, nobody's going to use paper or scissors anymore for any reason but novelty.

[TheArisen]

ice trey, on 20 March 2017 - 01:12 AM, said:

Not at all, it wouldn't.
Well, you'd have exactly that... A mech that can compete with clantech, while the rest, not so much. You've now got the inner sphere with one mech that outshines everything else in it's weight class, so that would sabotage any attempts at balancing the equipment itself, because while everyone is now clamouring to use the new hotness, everything else is now derided as "Garbage".

The IS mechs not being able to compete are far less an issue with clan mechs, but the technology they've been equipped with. One-upping the other guy with a mech arms-race isn't going to balance the game. When Rock beats both paper and scissors, nobody's going to use paper or scissors anymore for any reason but novelty.

Except this wouldn't be one upping but rather providing an equal competitor. I obviosly agree equipment is much more important when it comes to balance but frankly the IS doesn't have mechs that are of the same quality as a NGR, etc. Nor would this single mech be the end all be all. It'd be a small step towards bringing the Clans & IS into parity. I'm not sure how you can make that a reason not to let the IS have something as good as the Clan stuff. Balance requires that in one form or another that both sides are equal.

Simply put, the IS needs to have mechs of comparable quality to the KDK, MAD IIc, NGR and HBK IIc, etc. Not better than those mechs but something on a similar level. As it stands only substantial quirks get the IS mechs close to the Clan ones. Look at comp play, almost everyone is in Clan mechs and theres an obvious reason for that.