193 replies to this topic

[DrxAbstract]

dario03, on 04 April 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

Good as in during its first 4 months the top choices for comp lights was the JR7-F and the Ember. They played different roles but they were about equal over all.
And it did that without quirks because there were no quirks, well except maybe the Hellslinger type quirks. And you can't compare the Firestarter of today to the Firestarter of early 2014, it was a very different game. Again no quirks (which for the FS9 is actually still mostly true but other mechs have lots), no clan mechs and clan weapons, much smaller size, smaller movement profile, etc, etc.

Eh, the FS9-A and S had quirks alright... I know you know what I'm talking about. If it werent for those quirks there wouldn't have been such a clear divide... Alas, when you're dealing with FS9 and JR7 only one of them can make the claim they had quirks to nerf in the beginning.

[DrxAbstract]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

Dario already did that for me.

Not particularly. You see I'm making the case that the Ember specifically never reached the same level as the JR7-F. We've all been here long enough to know the FS9-A and S have different stories at different times and I'm clearly not contesting that point if you've been reading.

However, in your case Quicksilver:

Quote

Posted 01 April 2015 - 02:21 AM

Honestly both MGs and Flamers need to drop the crit boost they get and their DPS boosted by at least 50% (I would prefer double current values). The MG should get its ammo per ton boosted by double and the Flamer needs its exponential heat dropped and function like all other heat generating weapons.

- Quicksilver Kalasa

So what we have here is you making the statement that Machine Guns are, in your opinion, inadequate to such an extent that their statistics during the period which Dario and I are discussing also qualify them as poor performers by a fair margin... And now you're going suggest a Mech, whose payload was composed of 50% of that same weapon, was a legitimate contender with the JR7-F at any point since its inception?

In which case I'm going to have to ask you to step back and double check your understanding of your own position before you start pestering me about mine.

[Tesunie]

KingCobra, on 04 April 2017 - 02:48 PM, said:

You know what dude go take a long walk off of a short pier.

What I personally would like is MWO mechs that have been nerfed or are practically useless to become viable mechs in gameplay by fixing there hit-boxes or actually giving them some double armor so players can have a average TTL=Time to live at 4+ minutes per battle.

MWO mechs are weak if you look at past PC MechWarrior games the mechs were x10 tougher they spread damage BETTER EVEN UNDER ALPHA SHOTS. Like I have said PGI IS GOING THE WRONG DIRECTION on TTL now its becoming a true FPS game with TTL AVG 2 minutes or less and 1 shot 1 kill BS.

And yes I would like back my OP TimberWolf the way the mech was intended to be played as a fast hard hitting brawler not some crap mech taken down in 1-2 Gauss PPC blasts to the CT.

Which MW PC game are you talking about? I have at least the basic disk to all of them, from MW2 all the way to MW4: Mercs/Blacknight. I will tell you now, in MW4 online play, with Heat and Ammo turned off (a common option for most of the online lobbys). Take a Novacat with max ERLLs on it. One shot, enemy dead.

Lasers were as pin point as ACs, Gauss and PPCs in MW4. Only weapons to spread was missile type weapons.

FYI: The Timberwolf by lore was not to be a hard hitting brawler. It was a hard hitting mech, but it as a universal mech, able to do just about any task needed on the battlefield. There is a reason it has the stock weapons it does.

[dario03]

DrxAbstract, on 04 April 2017 - 02:53 PM, said:

Eh, the FS9-A and S had quirks alright... I know you know what I'm talking about. If it werent for those quirks there wouldn't have been such a clear divide... Alas, when you're dealing with FS9 and JR7 only one of them can make the claim they had quirks to nerf in the beginning.

We already covered this. Those mechs did not have quirks when they came out. They got quirks later and iirc it was much later, like ~9 months later, ~5 months after the Ember got hit by the MG nerf.

DrxAbstract, on 04 April 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

Not particularly. You see I'm making the case that the Ember specifically never reached the same level as the JR7-F. We've all been here long enough to know the FS9-A and S have different stories at different times and I'm clearly not contesting that point if you've been reading.

However, in your case Quicksilver:

Quote

Posted 01 April 2015 - 02:21 AM

Honestly both MGs and Flamers need to drop the crit boost they get and their DPS boosted by at least 50% (I would prefer double current values). The MG should get its ammo per ton boosted by double and the Flamer needs its exponential heat dropped and function like all other heat generating weapons.

- Quicksilver Kalasa

So what we have here is you making the statement that Machine Guns are, in your opinion, inadequate to such an extent that their statistics during the period which Dario and I are discussing also qualify them as poor performers by a fair margin... And now you're going suggest a Mech, whose payload was composed of 50% of that same weapon, was a legitimate contender with the JR7-F at any point since its inception?

In which case I'm going to have to ask you to step back and double check your understanding of your own position before you start pestering me about mine.

Unless you are screwed up the date on that post, that is not when I said the Ember was good. The Ember came out Early 2014, and was good until MGs were nerfed in June 2014. That post says April 2015 on it.
And yes, I did cover what made the Ember good when it came out and not good now.
There is a reason that the Ember got as many quirks as the JR7-F (zero) when quirks first came out. And that was because for a while it was equal to the JR7-F. Why it was still rated equal by the time quirks came out, I'm not sure, it had been nerfed for a while. I guess PGI took a while inbetween making its tier list and releasing quirks. Or maybe they thought it was better than the JR7-F before the MG nerf and equal after, though I recall that MG nerf hitting hard.

Edited by dario03, 04 April 2017 - 03:28 PM.

[KingCobra]

Tesunie, on 04 April 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

Which MW PC game are you talking about? I have at least the basic disk to all of them, from MW2 all the way to MW4: Mercs/Blacknight. I will tell you now, in MW4 online play, with Heat and Ammo turned off (a common option for most of the online lobbys). Take a Novacat with max ERLLs on it. One shot, enemy dead.

Lasers were as pin point as ACs, Gauss and PPCs in MW4. Only weapons to spread was missile type weapons.

Look friend your crazy PC mechwarrior2-4 was about online play in many leagues in-game and the MSN gamming zone there was only a few NHUA leagues where players even wanted to play1 shot 1 kill BS. P2K was one league I can remember of NHUA.

Then you had all those idiots on the MekTek severs playing NHUA which was total crapp game play.But 90% of PC mechwarro2-4 players played normal heat and normal ammo games which the mechs did not melt like MWO mechs do.

My GOD PC MechWarrior2-4 mechs were real mechs that could take damage not these weak 1-2 shot paper mechs like in MWO.

FYI: The Timberwolf by lore was not to be a hard hitting brawler. It was a hard hitting mech, but it as a universal mech, able to do just about any task needed on the battlefield. There is a reason it has the stock weapons it does.

Look friend your crazy PC mechwarrior2-4 was about online play in many leagues in-game and the MSN gamming zone there was only a few NHUA leagues where players even wanted to play1 shot 1 kill BS. P2K was one league I can remember of NHUA.

Then you had all those idiots on the MekTek severs playing NHUA which was total crapp game play.But 90% of PC mechwarro2-4 players played normal heat and normal ammo games which the mechs did not melt like MWO mechs do.

My GOD PC MechWarrior2-4 mechs were real mechs that could take damage not these weak 1-2 shot paper mechs like in MWO.

Edited by KingCobra, 04 April 2017 - 03:31 PM.

[dario03]

Didn't MW4 online have a lot of fast kills? I didn't play it much but I recall there being lots of super alpha laser hill peaking/firing through hills and poptarts. I also recall playing a gimmick Dire Wolf build that had little range but could 1 shot most mechs and if it didn't kill it could get a knockdown on mechs as big as (I want to say) 80t and then you could kill while they were getting up.

[Tesunie]

KingCobra, on 04 April 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

Look friend your crazy PC mechwarrior2-4 was about online play in many leagues in-game and the MSN gamming zone there was only a few NHUA leagues where players even wanted to play1 shot 1 kill BS. P2K was one league I can remember of NHUA.

Then you had all those idiots on the MekTek severs playing NHUA which was total crapp game play.But 90% of PC mechwarro2-4 players played normal heat and normal ammo games which the mechs did not melt like MWO mechs do.

My GOD PC MechWarrior2-4 mechs were real mechs that could take damage not these weak 1-2 shot paper mechs like in MWO.

Funny, when I played it online (which I will admit wasn't overly much), it was a chore to find a server lobby that actually had heat and ammo turned on. I of course gravitated to those servers, but the only mechs being played back then seemed to be Novacats, with their pin point accurate lasers that hit instantly with no spread to their beams, unlike in this game. (My brother and I seemed to have been exceptions, playing in Shadowcats instead, and dieing very quickly.)

The more you seem to talk, the less I am convinced you actually know what you are talking about.

MW2 might of had more durable mechs, but MW3 and 4 seemed to have mechs that could die very quickly, depending upon armor placement and weapons loadouts. Especially if you stood near another mech that just died, as every death resulted in catastrophic explosions...


In MW:O, mechs do feel fairly squishy at times, especially as of late. This is because the meta has once more shifted to more direct fire pin point damage, such as PPCs and Gauss. Similar to the days of the dual AC20 Cats and later Jagermechs, or the Splat or Streakcats, which use to kill you just as fast. People will always try to find the best and fastest ways to kill an opponent. Then, once that has been found, other people tend to see it and copy it, resulting in "flavor of the month" or a new "meta".

If anything, your Timberwolf is feeling the new meta.


Right now, the best clan heavy mechs are as follows: Night Gyr, TIMBERWOLF, Ebon Jaguar, Hellbringer then the Summoner, Linebacker, Mad Dog somewhere underneath those three mechs. Notice where the Timber is?

[justcallme A S H]

KingCobra, on 04 April 2017 - 02:48 PM, said:

You know what dude go take a long walk off of a short pier.

What I personally would like is MWO mechs that have been nerfed or are practically useless to become viable mechs in gameplay by fixing there hit-boxes or actually giving them some double armor so players can have a average TTL=Time to live at 4+ minutes per battle.

MWO mechs are weak if you look at past PC MechWarrior games the mechs were x10 tougher they spread damage BETTER EVEN UNDER ALPHA SHOTS. Like I have said PGI IS GOING THE WRONG DIRECTION on TTL now its becoming a true FPS game with TTL AVG 2 minutes or less and 1 shot 1 kill BS.

And yes I would like back my OP TimberWolf the way the mech was intended to be played as a fast hard hitting brawler not some crap mech taken down in 1-2 Gauss PPC blasts to the CT.

Oh so we're back to quoting again? Lol.

BTW we are all still waiting for you to produce your evidence of this TBR 'Nerf'. Particularly the hitbox one.

Have you found it yet?

We're all keen to find out what you know that no one else seems to

[Chados]

Catapult Jester. So very fragile now. I rarely run it anymore. Stare at it hard and *poof*.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DrxAbstract, on 04 April 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

So what we have here is you making the statement that Machine Guns are, in your opinion, inadequate to such an extent that their statistics during the period which Dario and I are discussing also qualify them as poor performers by a fair margin

Ummmm, no, you and him are arguing about different periods. April 2015 was AFTER Clans ANDthe quirkening which is NOT the period in which the Ember was ever good.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 April 2017 - 04:23 PM.

[Big Tin Man]

I miss the flavor of weapon specific quirks.

RIP

Ember
Dragon 1N
Wolverine 6K wubverine <3
PPC Thunderbolt rapid fire
6 LL Stalker
Huggin
BJ-1X
Locust 1V with the never ending LPL
3PPC + 2Gauss Dire Wolf - The definition of OP

Not nerfed, but never kept up with the power creep

Cataphract 4X and Ilya
Zeus (though I'm excited for new weapons here)

[Neil Diamond]

Wolverine 6K

OP is on crack, concerning the TBR to be nerfed.

[Davegt27]

War 4H, on 04 April 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

Wolverine 6K

OP is on crack, concerning the TBR to be nerfed.

PGI can nerf or buff any Mech or weapon anytime they want real time
They dont have to announce it because they know most players are to dumb to notice

Of course they don't need to change the size of the hit boxes they just turn the knob (so to speak)

[Kaeb Odellas]

Man, the Dragon 1N AC5 Chainsaw was so much fun. It wasn't even OP. Its hitboxes sucked, and all of its firepower was located in its easy-to-hit, low-mounted arm hardpoints.

[DrxAbstract]

dario03, on 04 April 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

We already covered this. Those mechs did not have quirks when they came out. They got quirks later and iirc it was much later, like ~9 months later, ~5 months after the Ember got hit by the MG nerf.

... Nobody said otherwise. I specifically said the A and S didn't really show up to the party until after quirks (And the Pulse Laser buff), and that the Ember specifically hasn't rivaled the JR7-F... Ember vs. F is the discussion. A and S entering the picture is more or less a side note in the annuls of the F's mighty history.

dario03, on 04 April 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

And yes, I did cover what made the Ember good when it came out and not good now.
There is a reason that the Ember got as many quirks as the JR7-F (zero) when quirks first came out. And that was because for a while it was equal to the JR7-F. Why it was still rated equal by the time quirks came out, I'm not sure, it had been nerfed for a while. I guess PGI took a while inbetween making its tier list and releasing quirks. Or maybe they thought it was better than the JR7-F before the MG nerf and equal after, though I recall that MG nerf hitting hard.

I believe the first round of quirks involved input from specific comp players, did it not? Comp play didn't reflect the most combat effective Mechs so much as which ones best synergized in coordinated play while performing specific roles... And that's still somewhat true to this day, which is probably the answer to your bewilderment.

dario03, on 04 April 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

Unless you are screwed up the date on that post, that is not when I said the Ember was good. The Ember came out Early 2014, and was good until MGs were nerfed in June 2014. That post says April 2015 on it.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2017 - 04:22 PM, said:

Ummmm, no, you and him are arguing about different periods. April 2015 was AFTER Clans ANDthe quirkening which is NOT the period in which the Ember was ever good.

Dario: No, the date is accurate--Your assessment of how I utilized the information in it is not (Nor was it addressed to you).

Quicksilver: Just because the post says 2015 doesn't mean it doesn't apply; Obviously if you felt MGuns needed such a large boost then the MGuns of the time period Dario and I are discussing were clearly inferior to you as well, which by extension makes any Mech reliant upon them at the time also inferior... Unless... That was your position at the time.™

So was the Ember useful outside niche roles in comp play, or a "Top Light", with half its firepower being comprised of, in your opinion, inferior weapons? Rise and fall of balancing indeed, but according to you the Ember never truly rose, now did it... That is, after all, what I'm specifically referring to: Ember vs. JR7-F. Which makes your comments to me respectively invalid as you apparently arent very familiar with your own position on the matter, much less qualified to question my understanding of it... So don't slap me in the face and pretend you've got a leg to stand on.

Edited by DrxAbstract, 04 April 2017 - 11:16 PM.

[dario03]

DrxAbstract, on 04 April 2017 - 11:15 PM, said:

... Nobody said otherwise. I specifically said the A and S didn't really show up to the party until after quirks (And the Pulse Laser buff), and that the Ember specifically hasn't rivaled the JR7-F... Ember vs. F is the discussion. A and S entering the picture is more or less a side note in the annuls of the F's mighty history.


I believe the first round of quirks involved input from specific comp players, did it not? Comp play didn't reflect the most combat effective Mechs so much as which ones best synergized in coordinated play while performing specific roles... And that's still somewhat true to this day, which is probably the answer to your bewilderment.




Dario: No, the date is accurate--Your assessment of how I utilized the information in it is not (Nor was it addressed to you).

Quicksilver: Just because the post says 2015 doesn't mean it doesn't apply; Obviously if you felt MGuns needed such a large boost then the MGuns of the time period Dario and I are discussing were clearly inferior to you as well, which by extension makes any Mech reliant upon them at the time also inferior... Unless... That was your position at the time.™

So was the Ember useful outside niche roles in comp play, or a "Top Light", with half its firepower being comprised of, in your opinion, inferior weapons? Rise and fall of balancing indeed, but according to you the Ember never truly rose, now did it... That is, after all, what I'm specifically referring to: Ember vs. JR7-F. Which makes your comments to me respectively invalid as you apparently arent very familiar with your own position on the matter, much less qualified to question my understanding of it... So don't slap me in the face and pretend you've got a leg to stand on.

What exactly are you looking for? What are you defining "good" as?
Yes the first set of quirks had input from comp players. Yes the Ember was rated in the same tier as the JR7-F. Yeah it was probably based mostly on comp play.
Yes comp play is often times set up for the mechs to work together while performing specific roles. But those roles don't have to all be the same. And a lot of top comp mechs work great in unorganized pug play as well because they are great mechs on their own. From what I've seen the mechs that rule the comp scene typically rule the group and solo drop scene as well. And that was no different for the Ember, there wasn't some special combo that made the Ember work in comp play and only comp play.

[DrxAbstract]

dario03, on 05 April 2017 - 12:06 AM, said:

What exactly are you looking for? What are you defining "good" as?
Yes the first set of quirks had input from comp players. Yes the Ember was rated in the same tier as the JR7-F. Yeah it was probably based mostly on comp play.
Yes comp play is often times set up for the mechs to work together while performing specific roles. But those roles don't have to all be the same. And a lot of top comp mechs work great in unorganized pug play as well because they are great mechs on their own. From what I've seen the mechs that rule the comp scene typically rule the group and solo drop scene as well. And that was no different for the Ember, there wasn't some special combo that made the Ember work in comp play and only comp play.

JR7-F just wants a hug... And me too.

[dario03]

DrxAbstract, on 05 April 2017 - 12:11 AM, said:

JR7-F just wants a hug... And me too.

Nobody said the JR7-F couldn't have a hug.
Its just you won't let the Ember give it the hug because you don't think the early 2014 Ember is worthy of the early 2014 JR7-F and won't tell it why.

[DrxAbstract]

dario03, on 05 April 2017 - 12:16 AM, said:

Nobody said the JR7-F couldn't have a hug.
Its just you won't let the Ember give it the hug because you don't think the early 2014 Ember is worthy of the early 2014 JR7-F and won't tell it why.

But I did...

Quote

Devoting half your payload to them on a section of the Mech that can't hit anything beyond the most gradual of terrain gradients with midriff-mounted weapons all-round that required extensive facetime (Mguns) and are inherently poor performers against 100+ KPH targets (Mguns and Mlas)

Quote

The Ember, however, had unquirked, pre-buff Mguns constituting half its hardpoints which forced you to rely on 1-ton Energy weapons if you wanted to fill the 4 Energy hardpoints--Mlas were garbage and you couldn't carry enough Splas to make up the gap between the A or S.

Now to elaborate some of those points...
The JR7-F:

• Could hill-poke better
  
• Shave armor for extra space due to the huge CT
  
• Handle targets in multi-dimensional engagements without needing specific elevation positioning, making their movements less predictable and firepower easier to bring to bear.
  
• Bigger Alpha
  
• Less facetime
  
• Inflict more precise damage
  
• Engage from greater distance more effectively
  
• Potentially be more agile
  
• Fit more equipment (Heat Sinks, JJs)
  
• Looked better

The Ember had... Better damage rolling (Unless they shot at your legs), lasted longer in a sustained short-range firefight, could strip weapons provided there was little-to-no armor present and... what else?


Of course I've used Mlas and Splas version of the JR7-F, 80% Mlas. Which, anyone who's known me for that long knows I think Mlas deserve a special place in hell for the level of unregistered damage issues I've had with them early post-HSR but, as you said, with the lack of Clan Weapons it was still manageable in most facets of combat during that period because of how well they worked with the Jenner chassis design (Except for that spread separation... )

Now I've owned an Ember since the day they were released (And Oxides for that matter, contrary to those of you who said I only bought it when it was OP... YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE), and found it to be largely underwhelming compared to my trusty JR7-F, and even my JR7-D. They've also never been more than a nuisance to me on the battlefield. Maybe I'm biased, but in my experience and opinion, the Ember has never matched the prowess of the JR7-F.

[Cabusha]

KingCobra, on 03 April 2017 - 10:41 PM, said:

Sorry I disagree totally PGI has nerfed so many mechs hit-boxes there all like butter or paper dolls they cant take no damage like they could back before closed beta I was there I played them all for countless hours so your wrong totally wrong.

And its just not the Timberwolf 90%of MWO mechs are way to weak on hitboxes or armor and die to quickly MWO now reminds me of playing PlanetSide 2 more than MechWarrior.

Respectfully, all mechs die quicker than closed beta. Mechs hit harder (IS AND CLAN) because of quirks and/or clan tech. And hit registration across the board is waaaay better than CB. The days of lag-shooting a Jenner by 5 or 6 mech lengths and losing half your damage are long gone. Even a mech as slow as an atlas needed 1-2 mech lengths to lag shoot, and damage would this be lost trying to "find it".