193 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

KingCobra, on 04 April 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

My GOD PC MechWarrior2-4 mechs were real mechs that could take damage not these weak 1-2 shot paper mechs like in MWO.

ONLY because of Lag. You shot them, and you missed half the time because they were not really there. That is not tougher mechs, that is crap netcode (or crap, compared to now, internet). Or possibly because AI mechs dont play to win, if we are talking single player.

[Mechteric]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 April 2017 - 04:01 AM, said:

ONLY because of Lag. You shot them, and you missed half the time because they were not really there. That is not tougher mechs, that is crap netcode (or crap, compared to now, internet). Or possibly because AI mechs dont play to win, if we are talking single player.

Actually, it's more because of 12v12. If you make a slight mistake and end up in the crosshairs of multiple simultaneous enemies you will melt, that's really just math.

Also apparently you don't remember how bad the lag shooting was in Mechwarrior 2, 3 and 4. It wasn't until much later in Mech 4 Mercs that it became reasonable.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 05 April 2017 - 05:23 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

CapperDeluxe, on 05 April 2017 - 05:23 AM, said:

Actually, it's more because of 12v12. If you make a slight mistake and end up in the crosshairs of multiple simultaneous enemies you will melt, that's really just math.

Also apparently you don't remember how bad the lag shooting was in Mechwarrior 2, 3 and 4. It wasn't until much later in Mech 4 Mercs that it became reasonable.

9600 Baud - Test your might!

Then again the rate of fire, cooling rate and time to overheat in Mech 2 were magnitudes higher than they are in MWO, which lessened the pain of missing your target repeatedly.

Edited by DrxAbstract, 05 April 2017 - 05:37 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Oh, the Nova is the best nerf by far.

Released with 12 CERMLs BEFORE "ghost heat"....the moment they implemented it, people were suiciding when they alpha struck. That was awesome.

[Tesunie]

DrxAbstract, on 04 April 2017 - 11:15 PM, said:

... Nobody said otherwise. I specifically said the A and S didn't really show up to the party until after quirks (And the Pulse Laser buff), and that the Ember specifically hasn't rivaled the JR7-F... Ember vs. F is the discussion. A and S entering the picture is more or less a side note in the annuls of the F's mighty history.

As far as between the Jenner and Firestarter, I recall a time when it was "Firestarters. Firestarters EVERYWHERE."

At one distinct point in this game, Firestarters as a chassis was "the best light in the game", then was replaced with the Arctic Cheetah. I recall the Firestarter rushes in FW and the mass swarm of them in QP.

As far as specifically the Ember, I recall it being called one of the kings (as in, one of the "best lights in game") for some time. How that compared to the other Firestarters, Jenners or even the specific Jenner 7F, I don't overly recall. But, at one point, Jenners were considered horrible mechs because "Everything hits it's CT". Thus, the Spider actually took over for the Jenner for some time, and the Raven. Spiders and their belly button wormholes that sucked up damaged and shifted it over to the nearest Jenner.

A lot of mechs have shifted in the meta over the years. I'll just leave that the Jenners and Firestarters have each had their time in the lime light, and that included their hero versions as well.

Cabusha, on 05 April 2017 - 02:44 AM, said:

Respectfully, all mechs die quicker than closed beta. Mechs hit harder (IS AND CLAN) because of quirks and/or clan tech. And hit registration across the board is waaaay better than CB. The days of lag-shooting a Jenner by 5 or 6 mech lengths and losing half your damage are long gone. Even a mech as slow as an atlas needed 1-2 mech lengths to lag shoot, and damage would this be lost trying to "find it".

Widowmaker1981, on 05 April 2017 - 04:01 AM, said:

ONLY because of Lag. You shot them, and you missed half the time because they were not really there. That is not tougher mechs, that is crap netcode (or crap, compared to now, internet). Or possibly because AI mechs dont play to win, if we are talking single player.

CapperDeluxe, on 05 April 2017 - 05:23 AM, said:

Actually, it's more because of 12v12. If you make a slight mistake and end up in the crosshairs of multiple simultaneous enemies you will melt, that's really just math.

Also apparently you don't remember how bad the lag shooting was in Mechwarrior 2, 3 and 4. It wasn't until much later in Mech 4 Mercs that it became reasonable.

All three of you are correct.

No one aspect is responsible for the faster deaths we currently see in MW:O. It's a little of each of it. Standing in front of 8 mechs didn't hurt as much as standing in front of 12. That's simple math. Having to shoot at lag shielded targets wasted damage potential, making it so less damage got applied to mechs overall. As Lag shield wasn't an intended part of the game, it artificially made mechs seem tougher than they really where, which did result in some changes such as the Raven's leg hit boxes (thunder-thighs) and the Spider having a larger than visuals torso and arms.

Lag Shields is also what made the Raven the best mech in the game, as between lag shield and ECM's introduction, a Murder pack of Raven 3L would kill just about everything else in the game with ease...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tesunie, on 05 April 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

Lag Shields is also what made the Raven the best mech in the game, as between lag shield and ECM's introduction, a Murder pack of Raven 3L would kill just about everything else in the game with ease...

Lag shields and ECM weren't the only reason the Raven was so strong back in those days, the auto CT homing Streak 2s also had a serious part in the Raven's strength.

[Tesunie]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 April 2017 - 08:31 AM, said:

Lag shields and ECM weren't the only reason the Raven was so strong back in those days, the auto CT homing Streak 2s also had a serious part in the Raven's strength.

Don't forget, SSRMs and SRMs in general also did far more damage than they were suppose to from the splash mechanic. Sometimes, upwards of 4-5 damage per missile...

[KingCobra]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 April 2017 - 04:01 AM, said:

ONLY because of Lag. You shot them, and you missed half the time because they were not really there. That is not tougher mechs, that is crap netcode (or crap, compared to now, internet). Or possibly because AI mechs dont play to win, if we are talking single player.

I was talking multiplayer not singleplayer as I have played this IP since 1995 online with MW2 -MWO and yes lag might have been a bit of why mechs took more damage and other factors but if I were to take a MechWarrio4 Mercenaries Vanilla mech and fight a MWO mech 10 matches it would be 8-2 in favor or a MW4 mech I will guarantee you that.

MechWarror4 Mercenaries mechs were 10x tougher 5 times more agile and had about the same Alpha power.
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Quicksilver said (Lag shields and ECM weren't the only reason the Raven was so strong back in those days, the auto CT homing Streak 2s also had a serious part in the Raven's strength. )

The raven is a fun mech but so were my Dragon and Centurion and many mechs I started out MWO with that really are just dead space in my Mech Collection which I personally hate I like all my mechs to be played every time I get online to play MWO and they should be able to compete still with newer mechs and have fun in them not dying in basically 1 dang shot or multiple hits from opposing groups.

Like I said the more PGI pushes MWO to be like WOT or Planetside 2 the worse the game play becomes and the fun factor of BattleTech or MechWarrior slips away into memory.

P.S which is killing this game all the faster.

Edited by KingCobra, 05 April 2017 - 08:45 AM.

[JediPanther]

My favorite mech always nerfed directly or indirectly by pgi: The LIGHT mechs. ALL OF THEM.

[Tesunie]

KingCobra, on 05 April 2017 - 08:45 AM, said:

I was talking multiplayer not singleplayer as I have played this IP since 1995 online with MW2 -MWO and yes lag might have been a bit of why mechs took more damage and other factors but if I were to take a MechWarrio4 Mercenaries Vanilla mech and fight a MWO mech 10 matches it would be 8-2 in favor or a MW4 mech I will guarantee you that.

MechWarror4 Mercenaries mechs were 10x tougher 5 times more agile and had about the same Alpha power.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quicksilver said (Lag shields and ECM weren't the only reason the Raven was so strong back in those days, the auto CT homing Streak 2s also had a serious part in the Raven's strength. )

The raven is a fun mech but so were my Dragon and Centurion and many mechs I started out MWO with that really are just dead space in my Mech Collection which I personally hate I like all my mechs to be played every time I get online to play MWO and they should be able to compete still with newer mechs and have fun in them not dying in basically 1 dang shot or multiple hits from opposing groups.

Like I said the more PGI pushes MWO to be like WOT or Planetside 2 the worse the game play becomes and the fun factor of BattleTech or MechWarrior slips away into memory.

P.S which is killing this game all the faster.

Pst... Mechs in MW4 had double health, just like MW:O, but that game had even more Pin Point Front Loaded Damage than WM:O does... And, MW:O mechs would probably rip a MW:4 mech (if the games where even compatible) simply due to the amount of weapons we can place, not being restricted by hard point size limitations... EDIT: Actually, it would probably be "who shot first". Each could probably effectively kill the other.



I find it funny how you mention mechs not doing well between OB to today. I have a Hunchback 4J. It was the very first mech I bought in MW:O (and played, back when R&R and trial mechs where left in their stock configurations). I set it up way back then with 5 MLs and 2 LRM10s. Over the years, I've only added in a head TAG and lost a ton of ammo due to ECM. Otherwise, that mech is still completely viable in todays MW:O as it was back when R&R was in the game (2012 era).

I also have a Dragon that I owned for a long time. I originally has it set up with 2 SSRM2s, an UAC5 and a LL. Over time, due to quirks, this build has since changed to 2 SSRM2s (with BAP to counter ECM), an AC5 (which shoots like an UAC5 without jam chance) and an ERLL (which now has the heat of a LL with quirks and recent changes to lasers since I made the original build). Just as viable as it was back then, if not more so due to hit box changes and quirks.

Never played Centurions. However, I did play Cicadas as the second mech I purchased in this game. I originally set one up with 6 MLs. Guess what. That 6 ML Cicada, is actually even more deadly now than it was back when I made it close to 2012-2013...

These are mech builds I've had set up and basically unaltered for 4+ years. There has been no need for me to change the builds, as they worked fine before and still do. I will admit that I don't play them as much as I once did, but they are still worthy of today's MW:O battlefield as ever, if not more so. I have since found other mechs that I like better, as I never was a fan of the Hunchback and Dragon, but that's in part "new mech syndrome" and "I've always loved this mech " such as with my Crabs and now my Huntsmen. Crab was an old favorite from TT and the card games. Huntsmen is a new favorite, because it just looks so cool.

Edited by Tesunie, 05 April 2017 - 09:00 AM.

[dario03]

DrxAbstract, on 05 April 2017 - 01:22 AM, said:

But I did...





Now to elaborate some of those points...
The JR7-F:

• Could hill-poke better
  
• Shave armor for extra space due to the huge CT
  
• Handle targets in multi-dimensional engagements without needing specific elevation positioning, making their movements less predictable and firepower easier to bring to bear.
  
• Bigger Alpha
  
• Less facetime
  
• Inflict more precise damage
  
• Engage from greater distance more effectively
  
• Potentially be more agile
  
• Fit more equipment (Heat Sinks, JJs)
  
• Looked better

The Ember had... Better damage rolling (Unless they shot at your legs), lasted longer in a sustained short-range firefight, could strip weapons provided there was little-to-no armor present and... what else?



Of course I've used Mlas and Splas version of the JR7-F, 80% Mlas. Which, anyone who's known me for that long knows I think Mlas deserve a special place in hell for the level of unregistered damage issues I've had with them early post-HSR but, as you said, with the lack of Clan Weapons it was still manageable in most facets of combat during that period because of how well they worked with the Jenner chassis design (Except for that spread separation... )

Now I've owned an Ember since the day they were released (And Oxides for that matter, contrary to those of you who said I only bought it when it was OP... YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE), and found it to be largely underwhelming compared to my trusty JR7-F, and even my JR7-D. They've also never been more than a nuisance to me on the battlefield. Maybe I'm biased, but in my experience and opinion, the Ember has never matched the prowess of the JR7-F.

And that is why the JR7-F was a better up close poker and the Ember was the better brawler. Both could do both but each was a bit better at each. If the Jenner's benefit of bigger alpha hit and run fit you better then thats fine, plenty of players did prefer it, others preferred not blocking every shot with their CT and having some no heat weapons.
Some mechs just fit some players better, it doesn't mean another mech isn't just as good. I'm not a huge fan of Night Gyrs, but I don't think they are bad by any means. I do great in them like most players do, I just prefer some other heavies over them.

Edited by dario03, 05 April 2017 - 11:56 AM.

[Buster Machine 0]

Stalker 3fb, lost 2 missile hardpoints without even being mentioned in patch notes and got nerfed so hard that there are holes in its model that exist even up to this day.

[Grey Ghost]

Centurion CN9-AL, it had great quirks for 2 LL (or LPL) w/2ML running a Standard Engine, but unfortunately people running 3 LL with paper armor and/or an XL Engine apparently triggered PGI's metric alarm. Was my favorite Sword & Board Mech.

[Tesunie]

I'm noticing a lot of remarks are "PGI gave it X buff, and then took it away". Still not sure I'd call that a nerf, especially if said buff may have been "too good"... But I guess that is just me.

Dr Genocide, on 05 April 2017 - 03:21 PM, said:

Stalker 3fb, lost 2 missile hardpoints without even being mentioned in patch notes and got nerfed so hard that there are holes in its model that exist even up to this day.

I will mention here, the 3FB Stalker was actually never suppose to have those two Missile Hardpoints to begin with. It was mentioned in it's release statement (as in, those extra missile slots where not listed) and it actually WAS mentioned within a patch note that it was being corrected. It was a hot fix if I'm correct soon after it was released, with a notice that if your mech had used those hard points that the mech would be marked as "invalid" till it was corrected.

They just recently did that with another mech, one of the Assassins was able to mount I believe an extra JJ more than it was listed and was suppose to be able to.

[Monkey Lover]

JediPanther, on 05 April 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

My favorite mech always nerfed directly or indirectly by pgi: The LIGHT mechs. ALL OF THEM.

I agree with you, very few light mechs worth using anymore.

[Y E O N N E]

Monkey Lover, on 05 April 2017 - 04:50 PM, said:

I agree with you, very few light mechs worth using anymore.

Even the Locust and Spider are just the best of the worst, they weren't considered good even with their considerably larger buffs before the rescale.

Goddamn is PGI out of touch.

[Murcheson]

As others have mentioned the Timber Wolf isn't the only mech that has been nerfed - frankly that is why I don't buy mechs with real money any more because it is all illusory, great specs to get the sale, and then they nerf them in the name of "re-balance" - it is a bait and switch scam.

I only buy mech with c-bills.

[Tesunie]

Murcheson, on 05 April 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

As others have mentioned the Timber Wolf isn't the only mech that has been nerfed - frankly that is why I don't buy mechs with real money any more because it is all illusory, great specs to get the sale, and then they nerf them in the name of "re-balance" - it is a bait and switch scam.

I only buy mech with c-bills.

Most of the time, those said mechs are bought "blind" as a preorder. As in, there are no "great specs" to "get the sales".

It's far more like, they get introduced, are not balanced correctly, then get balanced as they collect data. Sometimes, that process can take a while.

I never purchase mech packs unless the mech interests me, and then I hope I enjoy it as much as I think I will. Some packs I do regret getting, others I do not. But, that is the risk I take when I preorder.

[Neil Diamond]

Davegt27, on 04 April 2017 - 05:58 PM, said:

PGI can nerf or buff any Mech or weapon anytime they want real time
They dont have to announce it because they know most players are to dumb to notice

Of course they don't need to change the size of the hit boxes they just turn the knob (so to speak)

All of this aside. In the case of KingCobra, it is the indian and not the arrow.

[KingCobra]

War 4H, on 05 April 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

All of this aside. In the case of KingCobra, it is the indian and not the arrow.

I will take this as a complement my great great great great grandmother Bearce would be proud.