404 replies to this topic

[The Lobsters]

Tribal556, on 09 April 2017 - 06:57 AM, said:

Also good lrm boat is somewhat slow and filled with ammo,

As it happens, a good lrm 'boat' is fast and has about 4-6 tons of ammo. That's about a minute to a minute and a half of good shooting with los and your own locks. Seeing a hunchie 4J with 8 tons of ammo and a std 200 makes me weep, or the Stalker with 15 tons. That's over eight minutes of shooting. I think the record for ammo I've seen on a build was 3000 rounds.

[Maker L106]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 08 April 2017 - 10:10 PM, said:

Any good LRMer who is worth it if in an Assault will be in an AWS-8R (best LRM boat in the game), BLR-1S (3rd best LRM boat in the game), and far down the list & last "viable" Assault is a MAL-1R (though really most Heavies are better & some Mediums)... if not in one of those three, then they are highly unlikely to be good. The problem is that to be a "good LRMer" has the highest skill set necessary yet the easiest skill floor to start with so the majority of players who stay using it as others get better are those incapable of getting better period. They try to play this mini-game where they try to keep the most armor as possible, which i believe gives them this very false sense of what kind of damage their mechs can take. When they go from to 100% to dead in 3 seconds at the end of the match being the last one alive while being focused upon but 8 mechs... they quite literally think that that is how it is normally (even have had some them say things to effect.) So it is a self-fulfilling assessment based on Correlation not Causation about how LRM Assaults are bad... Operator Error not Mechanical Failure is the Cause.

This is often how I see things play out as well. I'm one of those ******* spotters who Isn't afraid to put Tag on my BHII's CT E slot or NARC on my Shadow Cat. Having a few friends to drop with increases this usefulness quite a bit as does shoehorning ECM in there (cannot wait for heavy lasers).

But the LRMs exist in an unusual position that people I think are often times un-aware of.

In the competitive sets, 8v8 is the norm and the teams know where they're dropping and what they need to optimize for in that environment. Pug que's are simply "grab a mech and hope like hell you get a decent map for it" which encourages diverse design across the board. If i were dropping with a 12 man group into a public game I'll be sure to tell you we wouldn't be running pure meta or all PPFLD when we have access to tubes, trickery, and other methods of dismantlement that most people ignore.

Equip AMS!? ppftt nah bro that's another 2 Heat-sync... Nevermind if as stated previously on this page (8, hopefully anyway) that someone on the enemy team is running 3 AMS /w overload and a shitload of ammo or perhaps several units spend a ton or two on the AMS dome then it might be beneficial to not getting splatfaced by LRMS. Particularly slower mechs like the King Crab and Dakka Mauler i see often times get lit up by NARC and then just erased. Could it be done with Gauss or Dakka? Absolutely, probably even more efficiently per weight capita. But it wont save the armor that you don't expose. Indirect fire is exactly that, denial of target.

I get into these discussions a lot over obscure and "not meta" ideas in different games as well and the result is always the same, blatent disrespect to those who have low ranks or don't play competitive matches because they "don't understand" or don't have the experience that the others do in their minds.

I'm not here to say the LRM's are good, I'm just saying don't discount them in the PUG (always thought that stood for Public Unorganized Group btw) if you have at least one friend to drop with because the narc / LRM assault deletion committee is real.

Another point on the LRM wagon is that you can do some really odd tactical things like suppression which in MWO is quite difficult in the first place. Yes you can blat someone in the face with dakka and they won't be happy about it but you aren't going to be able to do that once they retreat from your sight lines and you won't make a lasting impression on the match unless you've successfully ripped a torso / arm or unit. The LRM + NARC combo can relentlessly harass slower opponents and if the mechs involved are fast enough (NARC Cat and LRM Crow) you can get away with quite a bit of precise pressure in ways that don't really exist in any other facet.

Pop the hill, narc + ERLL, call target while retreating /w MASC, LRMS fly... you get the idea you've all seen it before. While good players with faster mechs don't have as big of an issue with this. Faster mechs can be cleaned up in brawl or starvation situations with other mechs on your team. As a LRM / NARC wing of the team your job should be to make anything fat and slow rue the day it decided a 300 was "enough engine"

If I've made any errors feel free to correct me. Thanks for bothering to read this gigantic post.

[MischiefSC]

Errinovar, on 09 April 2017 - 05:04 AM, said:

Couple of things:

LRMs get a lot of hate, particularly on the forums, but I've had my share in the queue too. I don't mind so much because the end score will tell who really performed. And that's when then quietly quit and tell themselves LRMs are easy mode or whatever after letting us all know how worthless and weak LRMs are as a weapon system. The title of this post is bad and is indicative of someone who hasn't faced institutional racism with real repercussions in the real world, IMHO.

I'm not even close to the best pilot, I'm rank 2 and I only pug queue. I have two LRM platforms, BLR-1S with 2 LRM 15s, 2 LRM 5s , 3ML and tag, and an HBK-4J that runs 2 LRM10s, 3ML and tag. I have never ask others to hold locks as the pug queue is unreliable in general, though I do capitalize on those locks that people hold. Both mechs run XLs for mobility and speed because I generally fight in the 250-600 meter range. So I usually only carry between 7-9 tons of ammo and turn to close range with the lasers when I run out. I am also very conservative with my shots because my ammo is limited so the majority are LOS shots. Here are a snapshot of my stats:



All things considered I'm sure there are many people who perform better, but considering this is pug queue I can honestly say that I believe these stats show a definite contribution to the team, while asking for no special treatment or avoiding LOS. In fact I almost always tag for myself and the majority of my damage comes from LOS, using terrain and modules to allow me to peek and maintain locks without being fully exposed.

I will agree with the statement that LRMs have weaknesses that make them less valuable in terms of killing power, but a well played, mobile, LRM boat can bring a lot of battlefield control and much of it people never see. I can't count the number of teammates that I saved by dropping a salvo on a flanker lining up shots on a brawler, and you better believe when someone takes those volleys they tend to notice and boogie. If they don't they die pretty quickly. The point here being is that just because you don't see a direct benefit doesn't mean that you aren't directly benefiting from LRM fire.

And if everyone played LRM boats in a manner that gets stats like you posted, threads like this wouldn't exist.

However that's rarely the case. Why don't you look at the stats of most the people arguing against the leaderboard in this thread. There are plenty of people with ten thousand total matches played or more who still have a sub 1.0 W/L rate.

They should get to play and have fun. I'm all for that. Of course they should. There's people who play with a sub 20 FPS rig, people with wrist injuries and the like, all who play LRMs because that's still better than they are with direct fire. That, again, all fine. Big stompy robbit game people should play it and have fun.

When, however, you've got 2 people per match playing sniper/LRM boat in the back (and I can all but guarantee you sporting a 1.0 or less W/L) then of course people will complain. When someone is sucking consistently they are dragging everyone who has the misfortune of dropping with them down as well.

If that's because extenuating circumstances keep them from being able to do better that's 100% legit. No worries, come play. If, however, that's because they flat out refuse to put in the effort to do well that everyone else is doing (like what you described) than hell yes they're going to get complaints. Not that such complaints obligate them to change but the complaints themselves are valid.

As a side note, if you put that same level of effort in with a 5 LPL BLR you'd likely have even better stats. It can suppress people, stop flankers and quickly finish injured targets before LRMs can even get a lock, all out to 500m. Yes, LRMs can be effective when used well - the point is that direct fire is even more effective when used well. Food for thought.

[Felicitatem Parco]

The Lobsters, on 09 April 2017 - 07:29 AM, said:

As it happens, a good lrm 'boat' is fast and has about 4-6 tons of ammo. That's about a minute to a minute and a half of good shooting with los and your own locks. Seeing a hunchie 4J with 8 tons of ammo and a std 200 makes me weep, or the Stalker with 15 tons. That's over eight minutes of shooting. I think the record for ammo I've seen on a build was 3000 rounds.

I bring my Scorch with LRM80+A, and about 15-16 tons of ammo. TAG and ERPPC in the energy mounts. I tend to run out of ammo in matches.
A good LRM boat ride the front line and continually fires as long as there is some kind of engagement. And the ability to dump 320 damage in about 10 seconds is a valuable ability for a front line fighter.

[SPencil]

Errinovar, on 09 April 2017 - 05:04 AM, said:

I'm not even close to the best pilot, I'm rank 2 and I only pug queue. I have two LRM platforms, BLR-1S with 2 LRM 15s, 2 LRM 5s , 3ML and tag, and an HBK-4J that runs 2 LRM10s, 3ML and tag. I have never ask others to hold locks as the pug queue is unreliable in general, though I do capitalize on those locks that people hold. Both mechs run XLs for mobility and speed because I generally fight in the 250-600 meter range. So I usually only carry between 7-9 tons of ammo and turn to close range with the lasers when I run out. I am also very conservative with my shots because my ammo is limited so the majority are LOS shots. Here are a snapshot of my stats...

Those stats are more-or-less what I've accomplished with my Catapult (not an exact build). ~489 average damage per match at 256 matches, W/L = 1.54, K/D = 1.78. This is not the stat-line of a potato, nor do I think anyone could call that ineffective and really be serious about it: this mech was made for missiles and that's exactly what I've done with it. Contrast this with my archived LRM stalker build, average damage per match is about 350 which won slightly less (1.14-W/L) and killed with great gusto (2.27-K/D). The Stalker as an LRM build could kill much easier but wasn't as consistent as a Catapult LRM build. I think this is directly attributed to the extra agility and jumpjets of the Catapult making missile delivery much easier

The Lobsters, on 09 April 2017 - 07:29 AM, said:

As it happens, a good lrm 'boat' is fast and has about 4-6 tons of ammo. That's about a minute to a minute and a half of good shooting with los and your own locks. Seeing a hunchie 4J with 8 tons of ammo and a std 200 makes me weep, or the Stalker with 15 tons. That's over eight minutes of shooting. I think the record for ammo I've seen on a build was 3000 rounds.

I think the amount of ammo to bring is more dependent of the launchers used. 10 tons is more than enough to do 1000+ damage, and with 2xLRM15 that lasts for most of the match. 5 tons per LRM15/LRM20 seems nice; to be honest I've never touched the smaller launchers :V

[ANOM O MECH]

It's kind of funny to hear so many step up and say 'oh but I am an exception to the rule'. If there wasn't serious issues with not just the weapon itself, but how people actually use them, this wouldn't be an ongoing conversation.

When the meta shifted back to PPFLD from laser vomit, along with a minor buff, it seemed to bring lrms back in force. Also I think many of the better players have left and you see a lot of people in the upper tiers with their lrm's that have no business being there.

Casual players with the 'I will do what I want' attitude and their lrm King Crab and Spirit Bears shouldn't be in tier 1 and 2. If all was functioning properly, these folks would be having fun, derping about in the lower tiers away from the guys who are playing this game to win.

So having a low population and mixing these very different types of players is obviously going to cause a great deal of friction. It is reflected in group queue as well where many complain that they are getting stomped by the uber tryhards all of the time, as many players won't drop in quick play due to how abysmal the level of play is there.

Most of the fixes can't really be done however because of the population. There should never be six lurm boats on one side. Yet matchmaker and wait times couldn't handle separating loadouts. You can't convince people to bring reasonable or competitive builds as being a part of teamwork. If you consider how entrenched some folks are and insisting upon running the lrm Atlas despite the flak, you have to come to the conclusion that there are a great number of people playing this game who are vehemently anti-social and completely immune to normal social convention.

So why the hate? Nothing to do with the OP's assertion as that would allude to it being an unreasonable or ignorant kind of hate. No, this hate in many cases is completely justified. Not saying inappropriate behaviour is acceptable because of it. Just the anger and frustration, along with the helplessness knowing that there is not going to be any fix for the issue itself is understandable.

[Monkey Lover]

The Lobsters, on 09 April 2017 - 07:29 AM, said:

As it happens, a good lrm 'boat' is fast and has about 4-6 tons of ammo. That's about a minute to a minute and a half of good shooting with los and your own locks. Seeing a hunchie 4J with 8 tons of ammo and a std 200 makes me weep, or the Stalker with 15 tons. That's over eight minutes of shooting. I think the record for ammo I've seen on a build was 3000 rounds.

lol ya 3000 rounds best game will be 1500dmg hits and this is spread dmg so maybe 700 worth of sides/ct hits.

So best game with 3k round is 700dmg. This is why people dont want lrm players on their team.

[Erronius]

Prosperity Park, on 09 April 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

I bring my Scorch with LRM80+A, and about 15-16 tons of ammo. TAG and ERPPC in the energy mounts. I tend to run out of ammo in matches.
A good LRM boat ride the front line and continually fires as long as there is some kind of engagement. And the ability to dump 320 damage in about 10 seconds is a valuable ability for a front line fighter.

Honestly...part of the problem is that the "good" LRM pilots don't get noticed as much. If your team gets steamrolled then those LRM pilots get steamrolled as well. But what people do remember is when they're spectating the last mech on the team and it's someone in a lurm assault 2-3 grid squares away from where the actual battle was, likely with fresh armor as well.

[nehebkau]

Monkey Lover, on 09 April 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

lol ya 3000 rounds best game will be 1500dmg hits and this is spread dmg so maybe 700 worth of sides/ct hits.

So best game with 3k round is 700dmg. This is why people dont want lrm players on their team.

Your accounting is high -- more likely 600 damage CT/ST on that match. I don't think that is the real issue. I think people get more pissed because LRM players use other players for their offense and defense. They don't take their hits up front, they rely on others to take damage so that they can get a lock. Basically I don't see this as an LRM issue causing all the hate but an issue with people riding on the backs of other people -- that really draws out vitriol.

Imagine doing all the work on a project then having someone step in at the last minute and claiming a reward for your work as well. That is what pisses people off.

For a better understanding here is a video:


(this doesn't pertain to GOOD LRM players who are at the front lines, getting their own locks etc).

Edited by nehebkau, 09 April 2017 - 09:37 AM.

[SPencil]

tker 669, on 09 April 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

It's kind of funny to hear so many step up and say 'oh but I am an exception to the rule'....

I hope you didn't take my past use of a Stalker for LRM support as my approval for such silliness It's undeniably fun to watch an enemy go splat like that, but requires more coordination and teamwork than is usually found in PUGs. That why I'll always preach for LRMs on heavies, in my mind they represent the perfect balance between launcher count & size, ammunition capacity, and raw maneuverability. Not to say a Catapult-K2 running PPC and AC/5s can't wreck stuff as well as the C1 with 2xLRM15, 2xML, TAG; they can wreck an equal amount of stuff in their respective roles.

As with LRMs, in my mind I won't run ballistics unless I feel I can dedicate the tonnage for it (minimum two cannons with plenty of ammo), I'll never run more or less than two PPCs if I ever carry them, I've never really played front-line assault; either support or skirmisher. Everyone has their preferences and ways we want to play the game. I'm not about to start yelling at someone who just stacked their 100 ton mech with missiles despite the fact I disagree with it; ask questions, have a discussion, but just insulting people for it is detrimental to everyone and won't fix anything (I feel like I should point out that is aimed at no one in particular, just a rant.) People eventually learn from their mistakes or they'll try something else, so instead of giving them **** I'll advocate giving them time.

[The Lobsters]

Prosperity Park, on 09 April 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

I bring my Scorch with LRM80+A, and about 15-16 tons of ammo. TAG and ERPPC in the energy mounts. I tend to run out of ammo in matches.
A good LRM boat ride the front line and continually fires as long as there is some kind of engagement. And the ability to dump 320 damage in about 10 seconds is a valuable ability for a front line fighter.

YMMV, but personally I don't think it's a good idea for an lrm user to plan to have enough ammo to see the end of the match, it's much better to take less and shoot less. The way I see it is, lrm are like srm's, they are both burst damage delivery systems. Srm's deliver it at the later stages of the match, and lrm's deliver it towards the start. Their moment is first real contact to focus damage quickly, drop the enemy team's big hitters early on and tip the match balance sooner rather than later. Srm's are more finishers, and are geared towards tipping the balance (or restoring it) in the later stages.

Taking less ammo usually means more tonnage for guns or engine, even my stalker only carries four tons. The only reason to take an lrm assault imho, is if you want to have big guns as well, like three large lasers. All the decent lrm assaults are good because they can dump a lot of damage on a target quickly, not that they can roll around with big launchers and loads of ammo, (although clans do need the big launchers to be competitive with IS)

[The Lost Boy]

The truth is LRMs just are not a great weapon. 30% accuracy with a weapon system isnt good at all. For the weight and space you are better with most any other weapon. Even great teams with LRM friendly maps can get countered with a little ecm and ams. Most mechs and players should just just avoid them.

[oldradagast]

LRM's are interesting, but generally not particularly good, except when they are. By that, I mean they are very unpredictable weapons that work great in some situations, but horrible in others. Still, on average they are below par. That still doesn't mean they are "useless" however. They may work better than other weapons for some folks, and I'd rather a person take a subpar weapons and try to contribute to the game and have fun vs. not playing at all.

IMHO, the real rage for LRM's comes from 2 things:
- You feel dumb when you die to them (partly because of the reputation they have, and partly because you feel cheated in a way since you probably didn't get to shoot back at the guy who killed you.)

- LRM's, for whatever reason, seem to encourage bad builds. An Atlas with 3 LRM15's and 2 small lasers... or no lasers at all... that type of thing. These mechs probably aren't great in the LRM part of the match, and then they die horribly the moment anything gets too close to them.

[ANOM O MECH]

SPencil, on 09 April 2017 - 10:42 AM, said:

I hope you didn't take my past use of a Stalker for LRM support as my approval for such silliness It's undeniably fun to watch an enemy go splat like that, but requires more coordination and teamwork than is usually found in PUGs. That why I'll always preach for LRMs on heavies, in my mind they represent the perfect balance between launcher count & size, ammunition capacity, and raw maneuverability. Not to say a Catapult-K2 running PPC and AC/5s can't wreck stuff as well as the C1 with 2xLRM15, 2xML, TAG; they can wreck an equal amount of stuff in their respective roles.

As with LRMs, in my mind I won't run ballistics unless I feel I can dedicate the tonnage for it (minimum two cannons with plenty of ammo), I'll never run more or less than two PPCs if I ever carry them, I've never really played front-line assault; either support or skirmisher. Everyone has their preferences and ways we want to play the game. I'm not about to start yelling at someone who just stacked their 100 ton mech with missiles despite the fact I disagree with it; ask questions, have a discussion, but just insulting people for it is detrimental to everyone and won't fix anything (I feel like I should point out that is aimed at no one in particular, just a rant.) People eventually learn from their mistakes or they'll try something else, so instead of giving them **** I'll advocate giving them time.

I think most people get that Stalkers and Maulers and Awesomes are missile carriers by design. If a platform is designed and quirked for lrms, it tends to make sense to use them as intended.

Again the problem is not just one issue. It is an abudance of issues that makes it very frustrating and contentious.

A big part of that however is the players themselves. They rain hate down upon themselves a good deal of the time. There are a good number of gamers who have never played organised sports or understand (care to understand even), that in a team game it is not unreasonable to expect your fellow teammates to follow conventions. Normally people seeking a game to play with other people, actually have a desire to be social and fit in. This is not always the case however with video games.

Even having this opinion however, quick play is quick play. The community smiles at the guy running the Urbie, and feels for the guy torturing himself running Victor's. Until there is some sort of way to fix tiers so that it reflects population issues and skill disparity properly, this won't be getting any better any time soon. So the super serious guy is stuck if he is not in a league or unit that has an outlet to go to in order to play serious and competitive matches.

[SPencil]

Lemming of the BDA, on 09 April 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

30% accuracy

30% of which accuracy? 30% chance the salvo hits, or 30% of the salvo itself? Those are results I'd expect from firing at a fast-ish mech moving perpendicular to the line of fire; LRMs don't curve laterally very well. I can expect most of a salvo to hit a heavy or assault if they were moving even close to parallel with the LRM fire. This is kinda why I love this thread: much of the advice and opinion on offer isn't actually wrong. I'll disagree with the more insulting rhetoric but for the most part everything people have said in this thread, both for and against LRMs in the varying ways it can be used, abused, and countered are correct.

Reminds me of this phrase: "Facts are facts, but truth is negotiable." IMO, LRMs out of all the weapons have the most variance in terms of performance. When LRMs work they can be devastating and become a major pain in the ***, but they are also the easiest to play around. LRM support is one third positioning, one third mind games, one quarter luck lock and the last tenth is mechanical skill.

tker 669, on 09 April 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

Until there is some sort of way to fix tiers so that it reflects population issues and skill disparity properly, this won't be getting any better any time soon. So the super serious guy is stuck if he is not in a league or unit that has an outlet to go to in order to play serious and competitive matches.

That's a key issue too, no doubt. If the tiers properly represented individual skill and teamwork, the LRM support found in higher tiers wouldn't be as ineffective and the lower tiers wouldn't be ripped to shreds. There's also some misunderstanding between being competitive, and being competitive in a professional setting. Build as best one can and play as hard as possible, but don't sweat the losses and deaths unless it actually matters. Everyone has their moments, good and bad. Since Beta I think the weapons have become relatively balanced in their respective roles for 12v12 stompy fun, but balancing matches is the more important issue.

In fact, why are we all yelling at each other about LRMs anyways! Fix the matchmaking! I've been reading a book on machine learning and that would be pretty cool...

Edited by SPencil, 09 April 2017 - 11:50 AM.

[ANOM O MECH]

SPencil, on 09 April 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

That's a key issue too, no doubt. If the tiers properly represented individual skill and teamwork, the LRM support found in higher tiers wouldn't be as ineffective and the lower tiers wouldn't be ripped to shreds. There's also some misunderstanding between being competitive, and being competitive in a professional setting. Build as best one can and play as hard as possible, but don't sweat the losses and deaths unless it actually matters. Everyone has their moments, good and bad. Since Beta I think the weapons have become relatively balanced in their respective roles for 12v12 stompy fun, but balancing matches is the more important issue.

In fact, why are we all yelling at each other about LRMs anyways! Fix the matchmaking! I've been reading a book on machine learning and that would be pretty cool...

Don't believe it is a pro vs. amateur issue.

I am speaking more of getting people who are at least closer together in not only skill but desire to be serious and try hard. Trying hard and being good actually gets quite a bit of disdain from those who that is not a priority.

There is nothing wrong with being serious and wanting to play with and against as good of players as possible. Just as there is nothing inherently wrong with wanting to run derpy fun builds and to focus more on having fun.

The issue is that those derpers are failing upwards and end up with the people who want the game to be more serious. The two groups don't mix very well.

I think a simple fix is if instead of damage being weighted so heavily as a whole, they split it so damage hitting one component was measured and weighted as of greater value. That way any of the weapons splashing damage all over inflating the score were considered a lot less. Obviously this would effect lbx and srms as well. Don't think it would be too hard to code in and track what a player was actually hitting. Would be a great stat too. I don't want to know just how many head shots I have managed, but how many ct's, st's I have hit too. How many arms have I blown off?

[Bud Crue]

tker 669, on 09 April 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

Don't believe it is a pro vs. amateur issue.

Wait...did some one say "pro" LRM users? Huh.
So all three of them are a thing now? Who knew?

Sorry, but I thought this thread was ridiculous before, and yet, somehow only now after 9 pages of this has it managed to truly jump the shark.

Edited by Bud Crue, 09 April 2017 - 12:52 PM.

[ANOM O MECH]

Bud Crue, on 09 April 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

Wait...did some one say "pro" LRM users? Huh.
So all three of them are a thing now? Who knew?

Sorry, but I thought this thread was ridiculous before, and yet, somehow only now after 9 pages of this has it managed to truly jump the shark.

That quote is completely out of context and in no way refers to pro lrm use at all.

[Erronius]

SPencil, on 09 April 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

Fix the matchmaking!

Unless I'm missing something, the underlying issue there is the player population itself.

[Bud Crue]

tker 669, on 09 April 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

That quote is completely out of context and in no way refers to pro lrm use at all.

Sigh. It was an attempt at humor. I'll add emoji's to help.

Edit: there.

Edited by Bud Crue, 09 April 2017 - 12:52 PM.