310 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

im inclined to think youre both potatos personally

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Dee Eight, on 08 April 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

Correction.. he wants to educate on how to play in SOLO pug queue. His usual posse that carries him wasn't online so he slummed with us solo queue folks and then things didn't go to his liking and thus the original post. He just had the unfortunate luck that someone else who was in that game, who happened to be the one in the mech he was calling out, also happened to be a forum user who read the posting only minutes after he posted it. i DO NOT EVER play in the group queue. If he (or anyone else) wishes to avoid playing me, that is where they should stay.

The only problem with your premise is that you fail to understand that he was correct about everything he said by your own admission... hence why someone else brought up the Dunning-Kruger effect in this thread. It is a psychological effect where the least competent people have the worst ability to judge their competence level , you literally lack the skill set necessary to make value judgments on your lack of skill. The interesting part is that a further study that used it as a base proved that people with training can teach them Value Judgments of skill sets even without an improvement in skill level... so maybe you could get someone to teach you how to LRM correctly, then you would at least know what good skills look like (hint: it is NOT firing from 900m with a +3 second flight time for targets to get back into cover!)

[Lorcryst NySell]

Valleric, on 08 April 2017 - 05:27 PM, said:

But he claims to have had thousands of games and is still in tier 5, so he probably is a lost cause.

I think you're confusing posters ...

*I* am the Tier 5 newbie in this thread, Dee Eight is actually Tier 2 ...

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Lorcryst NySell, on 08 April 2017 - 09:36 PM, said:

I think you're confusing posters ...

*I* am the Tier 5 newbie in this thread, Dee Eight is actually Tier 2 ...

Do not worry about it... you are inexperienced but seem teachable which is much better than most ever will be.

[Shifty McSwift]

Hey OP, why didn't you just command the non assaults to fall back to the assault's position and force them into the fight?

Its a sort of half blame situation, I mean not only were the assaults not near you, but you weren't near your assaults either. As an assault that rarely leads, getting bad "orders" happens almost every game, some want to tell the assaults what to do while not really knowing how to utilise them, some just expect assaults to suicide rush while they shoot from safety, others expect assaults to dig into vital positions and hold them while they flank etc.

Situations like smaller fast moving teammates running right past open enemy fire and expecting the assault to do the same and not die, then just abandoning them while they are pinned down, or just straight up leave assaults to be attacked while they hit other targets.

Some people even treat assaults as moving cover, sitting directly behind them and firing (often into) through them to hit enemies, which is at least half understandable to some degrees, I mean the assaults are there for that, if they are getting hit, their teammates should at least be getting counterhits etc. But it does seem like people forget assaults are usually weapon boats, and they explode like everyone else, so when they are low on health, they need armor sharing to maximise the output of their guns, which in those cases, does not involve them leading a push, as that would be silly suicide.

Circumstantial stuff man.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Shifty McSwift, on 08 April 2017 - 09:58 PM, said:

Hey OP, why didn't you just command the non assaults to fall back to the assault's position and force them into the fight?

Its a sort of half blame situation, I mean not only were the assaults not near you, but you weren't near your assaults either. As an assault that rarely leads, getting bad "orders" happens almost every game, some want to tell the assaults what to do while not really knowing how to utilise them, some just expect assaults to suicide rush while they shoot from safety, others expect assaults to dig into vital positions and hold them while they flank etc.

Situations like smaller fast moving teammates running right past open enemy fire and expecting the assault to do the same and not die, then just abandoning them while they are pinned down, or just straight up leave assaults to be attacked while they hit other targets.

Some people even treat assaults as moving cover, sitting directly behind them and firing (often into) through them to hit enemies, which is at least half understandable to some degrees, I mean the assaults are there for that, if they are getting hit, their teammates should at least be getting counterhits etc. But it does seem like people forget assaults are usually weapon boats, and they explode like everyone else, so when they are low on health, they need armor sharing to maximise the output of their guns, which in those cases, does not involve them leading a push, as that would be silly suicide.

Circumstantial stuff man.

Because that is a LOSING maneuver... you can not retreat and give the high ground in the middle of Canyon unopposed, especially since that would require a retreat under fire. There is NO POSSIBLE way you are going to pull that off in PUG, that would be almost impossibly difficult to do with a 12 man who practiced together every single day... even if they "successfully" completed the maneuver then they would have lost 3 mechs, thereby nullifying even doing it to start with. So no... the 2 Assaults are totally in the wrong and did more to lose to that match then the enemy team ever could to win it, since all they had to do was go to the middle in a group (which to be fair for a Saturday morning in PUG queue is a pretty amazing achievement.)

[Shifty McSwift]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 08 April 2017 - 10:36 PM, said:

Because that is a LOSING maneuver...

Well, I think practice proved your maneuver to be a losing one too, in the face of assaults not doing as expected. So maybe it would have lost you to fall back into them, but it definitely cost you to leave the team split.

[BD RAIDR]

It's all the potheads' faults, I tells ya!

Edit: Disclaimer: This is a general post not targeted at anyone in particular. If you take it personally it's on you... you, pothead.

Edited by BD RAIDR, 09 April 2017 - 02:19 AM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Shifty McSwift, on 08 April 2017 - 11:38 PM, said:

Well, I think practice proved your maneuver to be a losing one too, in the face of assaults not doing as expected. So maybe it would have lost you to fall back into them, but it definitely cost you to leave the team split.

Of course it was... hence the ENTIRE ******* OF THE THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To Assault correctly... the two Assaults in this scenario are the ones incorrect while the rest of the team was doing what they are supposed to. So to posit that the other 10 people need to do wrong to equal out what the two terribads did is NOT a logical premise... the Assault pilots were terrible and caused the team to lose, end of story. They have the onus to improve and not be the cause of the teams loss, the other 10 people need to keep playing correctly and just hope they do not get terrible players that are too heavy to carry in the next match. I know personally that anytime I see that guy that the team is going to have to carry him while he hides in the back and cries about whatever Light/Medium is harrassing him cause he is at least 500m from anyone else & 800m from the enemy engagement frontline... like Swiss clockwork.

[Mister Glitchdragon]

Assaults noun (pl.) Who to blame for your loss when there are no LRM boats on your team.

[Dee Eight]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 09 April 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

I know personally that anytime I see that guy that the team is going to have to carry him while he hides in the back and cries about whatever Light/Medium is harrassing him cause he is at least 500m from anyone else & 800m from the enemy engagement frontline... like Swiss clockwork.

You mean like lastnight when I did more work that you, got more kills, and nearly twice the damage in my Mad-IIC-D as you in your other Mad-IIC while you barked orders occassionally at who to shoot, then complained when that mech was still alive, while still finding time to hide behind others and complain about me and my mech ? Is that the sort of carrying you meant ? Because its been my experience that you're the player the team has to carry most of the time.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Dee Eight, on 09 April 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

You mean like lastnight when I did more work that you, got more kills, and nearly twice the damage in my Mad-IIC-D as you in your other Mad-IIC while you barked orders occassionally at who to shoot, then complained when that mech was still alive, while still finding time to hide behind others and complain about me and my mech ? Is that the sort of carrying you meant ? Because its been my experience that you're the player the team has to carry most of the time.

Yes... while me and 2 Heavies held the very edge of the domination circle on Alpine against their ENTIRE Charlie Lance & most of their Bravo lance, you were hiding in the back with a build even more terrible than I expected when I started mocking you about it during the start screen. You were so far in the back that you kept whining about the Medium that had gone all the around the backside of the mountain and you spent way more time focusing on instead of pushing forward to actually be useful by getting Line of Flight capability on the Assaults & Heavies in the circle. Thankfully the Mediums & Linebacker were able to get to the their Flank by going around the top so that we were able to finally remove a couple pieces and CGL set in for the enemy team thereby getting the Win. You were basically useless the entire fight and only accomplished anything after CGL set in and the game had been won... if you had moved forward and to the left thereby not having a mountain a couple hundred meters tall blocking your LRMs then you would have been a huge asset to the team. But that is WHY you are bad in particular and why the vast majority of LRMers in general are bad... you could have been a huge asset but you do not understand the game enough to foresee what you should be doing and the positions you should be in that get you the optimal Line of Flight where it is most useful. You were 1200m away from where you needed to be... which still would have put you 500m-600m away from the enemy but had you being able to maximize the Force you brought into conjunction with the rest of the team into a Force Multiplier.

So... we had to carry you cause you were hiding in the back being ineffectual while crying about the Medium that was harassing you because you were hiding in the back. Basically what you do every time I remember ever having seen you, I always let Alpha Lance know about you when I see you on the enemy team cause they can go get an easy kill. You could have been a huge asset last night being about to provide indirect fire on an entrenched enemy position, unfortunately you seem totally incapable of learning how to become that asset. Which again is exactly what I have always said about the vast majority of people who keep playing LRM Assaults as they get more experience... that is not the LRMs fault but the Pilot who uses them. The Dunning-Kruger effect that someone else brought up is what prevents people who do this to be able realize what they are actually accomplishing in reality as opposed to how they perceive their accomplishment.

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 09 April 2017 - 09:03 AM.

[nehebkau]

Dee Eight, on 08 April 2017 - 10:35 AM, said:

That was the match I was in before I went out to do an errand, I was in the LRM battlemaster and you were NOT polite in making demands to the assaults. You rushed D4 center with no discussion to the team of strategy or even scouting of where the enemy was first. While you were being impolite over the voip, I scored the first of only five kills we got. Canyon's is a map that favours flanking and using the map fully... and punishes those who think its a king of the hill fight around D4.

Now this, I believe more accurately represents the match. I have seen it more times then I would like to admit where some tryhard bemoans the assaults for not being at the front of an ill-advised push that they "demand" people follow, then complain, to high and low, when they get smote. PROTIP: TT battle plan you have in your head isn't going to work in puglandia. The enemy isn't going to do what you think and your team isn't going to do what you psychically will them to do. IF your assaults are staying back then you should probably stay back with them.

@OP, next time just advise your team to get into an advantageous position then advise them to push on the enemies weak side. I don't know which is more potato -- LRM assaults or tryhard pushes, but not getting out of the way of an enemy push when you are outnumbered and out weighted seems pretty high on the french-fry-scale.

Lorcryst NySell, on 08 April 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

Can I get a "OP PWN3D" from the crowd ?

Sure @OP_PWNED

This tells you EVERYTHING you need to know about the OP:

Valleric, on 08 April 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

I don't like my leaderboard going down just because someone dosnt know how to play.

Khobai, on 08 April 2017 - 08:59 PM, said:

im inclined to think youre both potatos personally

+1 to that here.

Edited by nehebkau, 09 April 2017 - 09:16 AM.

[Erronius]

Coolant, on 08 April 2017 - 06:57 PM, said:

So stay back with the Assault. Why do you have lead the charge if the assault doesn't?

The analogy of the tank in an MMO is not accurate....in an MMO the tank has healers in the back....no such thing exists in MWO.

Stay back with the assault? Which assault? The LRM Boat?

Honestly though...why do the people who play these kind of builds think that it's reasonable to expect the rest of their team to cater to them? It isn't 11 people expecting the LRM boat to keep up with the rest of the team, it's the LRM boat expecting 11 people to form up on them so that they can lob LRMs at extreme range. The former is a TEAM expecting an INDIVIDUAL to play as part of that TEAM, and the latter is an INDIVIDUAL expecting a TEAM to spend the entire match helping them play as an INDIVIDUAL.

This isn't about who leads a charge, because this expectation leads to NOT CHARGING AT ALL. Allowing someone to dictate terms like this means that your team...assuming that they actually acquiesce and spend the entire match babysitting you...will never move forward to engage, much less charge, because "Hey, why can't people stand back here with me?".

It's like listening to someone in a Lurmboat yelling "SOMEONE GET IN THE CIRCLE, YOU NOOBS!!" and then seeing the guy just stand there out of LOS crying that other people wont hold the circle for him.

As far as "Assaults ≠ Tanks because there are no healers", just GTFO of here with that nonsense. No other mechs can take that much armor (and damage), and I'm willing to bet that the assault pilots that cry the loudest about this are also the assault pilots that take builds that require high amounts of facetime and are poorly suited for torso twisting (and probably never even bother trying to TT in the first place). At which point, the lack of "tanky-ness" isn't due to anything other than you as a pilot and your choice of a build/playstyle.

[Dee Eight]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 09 April 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

Yes... while me and 2 Heavies held the very edge of the domination circle on Alpine against their ENTIRE Charlie Lance & most of their Bravo lance, you were hiding in the back with a build even more terrible than I expected when I started mocking you about it during the start screen.

I wasn't hiding. I was engaging the enemy that you weren't paying attention to, that's why I scored the first kill.

Quote

You were so far in the back that you kept whining about the Medium that had gone all the around the backside of the mountain and you spent way more time focusing on instead of pushing forward to actually be useful by getting Line of Flight

Again one of your typical lies. I mentioned they had an ERLL flanker, and if you wanted to be shot in the back you could ignore him yourself. I moved onto other matters.

Quote

You were basically useless the entire fight and only accomplished anything after CGL set in and the game had been won...

Except... by getting more kills, hitting more targets, being aware of more of the enemy positions and doing more damage than you... I clearly wasn't useless.

Quote

Eif you had moved forward and to the left thereby not having a mountain a couple hundred meters tall blocking your LRMs then you would have been a huge asset to the team.

And yet I still out damaged you by over 200 points.

Quote

But that is WHY you are bad in particular and why the vast majority of LRMers in general are bad... you could have been a huge asset but you do not understand the game enough to foresee what you should be doing and the positions you should be in that get you the optimal Line of Flight where it is most useful. You were 1200m away from where you needed to be... which still would have put you 500m-600m away from the enemy but had you being able to maximize the Force you brought into conjunction with the rest of the team into a Force Multiplier.

A huge asset would have been you not mouthing off to the team for a change, when they didn't do what you kept barking at them to do. That's why you ended the match with one of the lowest match scores and damage outputs as you typically do.

Quote

So... we had to carry you cause you were hiding in the back being ineffectual while crying about the Medium that was harassing you because you were hiding in the back. Basically what you do every time I remember ever having seen you, I always let Alpha Lance know about you when I see you on the enemy team cause they can go get an easy kill.

Your incapable of telling the truth aren't you ?

[I_AM_ZUUL]

I made you a visual aid (even though i am horrific at it).

Black- Where you were
Yellow- Where you should have been
Green- Where I and 2 Heavies were holding the frontline
Blue- Where the Mediums & Linebacker were able to flank around
Red- Enemy team of Assaults and Heavies
Grey- Worst circle ever drawn representing the Domination circle

Your Line of Flight for LRMs was obscured by the mountain in K8-K9 while you hiding in the back of K8 against the concentration of the enemy, where as if you had pushed forward and to the left into J9 like i was trying to get to you the entire time then you would have had a clear Line of Flight. That is what makes people "bad" LRMers, their total lack of awareness about their Line of Flight and how to position correctly to get it. You would have still be able to hide in J9 in cover but at least you would have been able to fire upon the enemy... and at the end of the day that is all I really require from Indirect Fire Support, the ability to rain death down on the enemy. You were no where in a position to do that at any point when it mattered, once CGL had set in for the enemy team and the game was won then you pushing up to K9 to steal damage and kills from the people who earned it is the very definition of having to "Carry" you.

[nehebkau]

Dee Eight, on 09 April 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

And yet I still out damaged you by over 200 points.

This is the biggest LRM lie in the game. Yes, you may do more damage but your burkkae spray of damage means you need to do 5x more damage to take down an enemy. You want to see how effective LRMs are , square off in a duel between a PTP damage and LRM damage mech of the same type and see which one goes down first. Lower damage DOES NOT EQUAL poorer performance. FYI, there are good LRM pilots out there (a few) and you NEVER see them more than 400m away from the front lines.

Don't kid yourself on the usefulness of your LRMs -- there is a reason you don't see them in competitive play.

however I doubt you are going to believe anything I wrote because it would force you into thinking that you are not doing as well as you think you are.

Edited by nehebkau, 09 April 2017 - 09:24 AM.

[Valleric]

@Zull
LoL. Just check out the stats of dee and the potatoes defending him... Then check out the stats of the people who agree an assault should know how to assault... There is a big difference. We are superior in every way. Thank God I am in a large unit. These guys are a detriment to any team. Teamwork is what wins games. Some people are incapable of objective rational thought. So they ego jumps in to save the day, blinding them from the truth. Easy kills though. I'll enjoy rolling you scrubs.

[Dee Eight]

nehebkau, on 09 April 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

This is the biggest LRM lie in the game. Yes, you may do more damage but your burkkae spray of damage means you need to do 5x more damage to take down an enemy.

Except as I've said MANY times... i don't merely run LRMs nor do I merely fire indirectly. The MAD2C in question is the ECM model, and also has an AMS, active probe, 2 UAC/2s w/4 tons and 2 ERLLs, TC1, and the pair of LRM launchers are 15s with artemis and six tons of ammo. Artemis requires line of sight for the spread reduction to work, as since I'm fighting with LOS I might as well be matching the range of the missiles with some direct fire. Also to the whole "spray" of LRMs... if its done properly and forces the enemy to either move in certain directions away from the launcher, panics them into hiding behind a building or hill, or otherwise helps the rest of the team push around for their direct fire builds to be effective....that is still helping the team.

[Battlemaster56]

Dee Eight, on 09 April 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

Except as I've said MANY times... i don't merely run LRMs nor do I merely fire indirectly. The MAD2C in question is the ECM model, and also has an AMS, active probe, 2 UAC/2s w/4 tons and 2 ERLLs, TC1, and the pair of LRM launchers are 15s with artemis and six tons of ammo.

That's look like a bad build , why not just run 2 cguass and erppc or change ppc for some er medium lasers they seem less extreme than what you got on for the MADIIC-D.