71 replies to this topic

[R Valentine]

Andi Nagasia, on 08 April 2017 - 03:46 PM, said:

this is the Problem, its always Clan has Stronger Toys so no Weak Clan Toy should be Buffed no matter how weak, all weak Mechs should be Buffed, reguardless of which Faction they belong to,

That'd only be the case if faction play wasn't IS vs. Clan. Well, it is, so taking things based on faction is part of the game.

[Mystere]

Dakota1000, on 08 April 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:

"Don't buff underperforming mechs of the faction I dislike because there are underperforming mechs of my favored faction"

Do you not believe that all underperforming mechs should be brought up and that there is much to be gained by both sides working together to ask for buffs on weak mechs instead of both of them cutting each other down any time one asks for buffs?

[El Bandito]

razenWing, on 08 April 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

For the longest time in Mechwarrior franchise, the best mech to get are the Omnis. They will let you "specialize" (boat) anyway to Sunday. They represent pretty much the pinnacle of Clan technology that IS struggles to imitate.

However, they seem to be severely neutered in MWO. Part of the awesomeness with Omnimech is with the flexibility. However, with the numerous locks, these are more drawbacks at this point. Weapon flexbility? Well, except, battlemechs have enough variants to make them essentially Omnimechs anyways.

You want energy boat? Well, there's probably an energy boat variant. You want a missile or dakka? Probably you can find those on any battlemechs as well.

Except you will need three different battlemechs and three mechbays to pay for the diversity, while you can have a single omni-mech to fill all roles, while spending only one mechbay. That's flexibility.

Case in point--I have three different Hunchback-IICs, but I have only one Stormcrow, cause I only need one.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 April 2017 - 05:04 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

So what youre saying is we need to nerf clan battle mechs? I agree.

[Khobai]

Quote

Case in point--I have three different Hunchback-IICs, but I have only one Stormcrow, cause I only need one.

except you need three stormcrow variants to master the stormcrow. so no you still need three. and three mechbays. so no thats not an advantage of omnimechs.

also in all due fairness the stormcrow is not representitive of all omnimechs. most omnimechs are crap compared to battlemechs. the stormcrow is one of the few exceptions because its locked equipment is ideal and isnt a burden. many omnimechs are dragged down severely by locked equipment.

so yeah the best omnimechs are fine. but the worst omnimechs do need help.

Edited by Khobai, 08 April 2017 - 05:19 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 08 April 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

except you need three stormcrow variants to master the stormcrow. so no you still need three. and three mechbays.

That's going away Soon™ with the new skillz tree.

Khobai, on 08 April 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

also in all due fairness the stormcrow is not representitive of all omnimechs.

Beyond the current skill tree, the only reason to have multiple variants for an Omni is if they have different CT hardpoints. Only a few Omnis have different CT's, and even then you can probably just pick the one with the best CT (e.g. CT laser on Ice Fridge).

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 08 April 2017 - 05:15 PM, said:

except you need three stormcrow variants to master the stormcrow. so no you still need three. and three mechbays.

Not after the skill tree change, you don't. Also, I got back significant amount of C-Bills by selling back the two Crows I did not need.

[Khobai]

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Not after the skill tree change, you don't. Also, I got back significant amount of C-Bills by selling back the two Crows I did not need.

but you wont need to buy three battlemechs either with the skill change. so whats your point? battlemechs get the same benefit of not having to buy three of them as the stormcrow. its not just omnimechs benefitting from that, battlemechs that only have one good variant benefit from that too. And there quite a few battlemechs with only one good variant.

but just because the stormcrow is fine still doesnt change the fact that other omnimechs are bad and need to be buffed.

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the only reason to have multiple variants for an Omni is if they have different CT hardpoints

not true at all. you can have upto four mechs in faction play. a lot of the time you want duplicates.

selling off your extra stormcrows is foolish if you play faction play. because 55 tons is right in the sweet spot for a deck like 65/65/55/55.


another reason is if you wanna have different builds of the same mech without having to mechlab between games. For example, I dont use the same arctic cheetahs in scouting that I use in faction play, they have completely different loadouts. And I often dont use the same builds in quickplay that I use in faction play either. So why should I sell all but one arctic cheetah then spend more time in mechlab swapping builds then actually playing? That makes no sense.


so even if the skill tree changes im still not going to sell my omnimechs for those reasons.



and yeah the stormcrow is fine because its one of the best omnimechs period, but the point is a lot of omnimechs have deficient equipment (like no FF or ES) or locked equipment thats a burden (like jumpjets or low engine ratings). those omnimechs have serious issues, and you rarely even see those mechs get used anymore because both IS and clan battlemechs are outright better.

1) omnimechs that dont get ES or FF need to be compensated with quirks somehow because not having them is crippling.

2) omnimechs with low engine ratings need to be compensated with quirks somehow because 52kph is not an acceptable movement speed in this game anymore. Going less than 65 makes you a burden to your team IMO. Even a 100 ton Kodiak manages to go 65 with a 375 engine and still have most of the firepower of a direwolf. So theres no excuse for a Direwolf only going an abysmal 52kph and not getting any compensation for it. At least give us the ECM direwolf variant so it has something.

3) having locked jumpjets is ridiculous because normally you only need 1 jumpjet. so either the game needs to get rid of diminishing returns on additional jumpjets and reward you properly for having multiple jumpjets or the omnimech jumpjets just need to be removeable.

Edited by Khobai, 08 April 2017 - 05:56 PM.

[fearfactory]

FupDup, on 08 April 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

You dun derped.

SCR-B

Wow. I sure did. Was it always available?

[FupDup]

fearfactory, on 08 April 2017 - 05:56 PM, said:

Wow. I sure did. Was it always available?

Yup, since Clan launch.

Khobai, on 08 April 2017 - 05:28 PM, said:

not true at all. you can have upto four mechs in faction play. a lot of the time you want duplicates.

You aren't supposed to play bad game modes.

[Khobai]

Quote

You aren't supposed to play bad game modes

I actually enjoy some of the gamemodes better with respawns

conquest is so much more fun with respawns.

and you never have to play escort

[Verkhne]

and omnimechs lock away all those nice engines that could be used for clan battlemechs...

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 08 April 2017 - 05:28 PM, said:

but you wont need to buy three battlemechs either with the skill change. so whats your point? battlemechs get the same benefit of not having to buy three of them as the stormcrow. its not just omnimechs benefitting from that, battlemechs that only have one good variant benefit from that too. And there quite a few battlemechs with only one good variant.

but just because the stormcrow is fine still doesnt change the fact that other omnimechs are bad and need to be buffed.

1. But I have to buy 3 different battlemechs if I want to use different Hunchback setups.

2. Bad omnimechs can be quirked. OP's suggestion such as unlocking engine, and fixed heatsinks would further powercreep the already good Clan mechs since they can in addition switch pods. So instead of blanket buffing Omnis, thus risking power creep, just buff the underperformers with quirks, like IS mechs.

[Khobai]

Quote

. But I have to buy 3 different battlemechs if I want to use different Hunchback setups.

and you also have to buy 3 omnimechs if you want to use 3 different omnimech setups without mechlabbing constantly. its a matter of convenience.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 08 April 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

and you also have to buy 3 omnimechs if you want to use 3 different omnimech setups without mechlabbing constantly. its a matter of convenience.

For Omnimechs it's convenience, for Battlemechs it's mandatory since you don't even have the option of "inconveniently" switching your hardpoints.

[Khobai]

Quote

For Omnimechs it's convenience, for Battlemechs it's mandatory since you don't even have the option of "inconveniently" switching your hardpoints.

its only mandatory for battlemechs that have multiple viable variants though. most battlemechs dont even have 3 viable variants. most battlemechs are lucky to have a single viable variant. so I dont buy that argument at all.

and again its sidelining the issue that weaker omnimechs need buffs. its a fact that many omnimechs arnt nearly as good their clan battlemech equivalents. yes some omnimechs like the stormcrow are fine but stormcrows are not the norm for omnimechs. a lot of omnimechs just need help because of their lack of ES/FF or because theyre dragged down by locked equipment.

Edited by Khobai, 08 April 2017 - 09:52 PM.

[Lykaon]

razenWing, on 08 April 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

For the longest time in Mechwarrior franchise, the best mech to get are the Omnis. They will let you "specialize" (boat) anyway to Sunday. They represent pretty much the pinnacle of Clan technology that IS struggles to imitate.

However, they seem to be severely neutered in MWO. Part of the awesomeness with Omnimech is with the flexibility. However, with the numerous locks, these are more drawbacks at this point. Weapon flexbility? Well, except, battlemechs have enough variants to make them essentially Omnimechs anyways.

You want energy boat? Well, there's probably an energy boat variant. You want a missile or dakka? Probably you can find those on any battlemechs as well.

So really, there's nothing special about Omnimechs except... locked everything. How many people breathe a sigh of relief when you find out that MKII was a battlemech, not an Omni? (And yea yea, I know in the lore they are technically battlemechs... but anyone that played MW4 when they were FIRST INTRODUCED, know that they are Omnis... they have freaking Omnipods. They were just retconned into the lore)

My point is, carrying Omnimech "tag" is now viewed as more of a pest or burden than not, but it shouldn't be this way. I mean, who is the most kick@ss Transformer? A lot of people can point to OMNIcron, and thus, to me... Omni means awesome, not liability.

Yes, I know your EBJ TBF and maybe some DWF still functions pretty good and featured regularly in competitive circle. But one can argue, is that due to their "omni-ness" or their "clan-ness?" Cause tier 1 meta are the IIC mechs. Marauder IIc, Haunchback IIC, Kodiaks. So I can argue that EBJ, TBF, and DWF are good, not because of Omnis... but Clan.

So I thought, rather than keep forcing the rule of 8, which further reduce the viability of Omnis (cause everyone else gets quirked, Omnis can't get those quirk if they swap out, so flexibility is a liability), PGI can start by re-introducing pod bonuses back to parts. Yea yea, I know skill tree is coming out, but didn't PGI mention that some quirk bonuses will be INDEPENDENT from skill tree bonuses? So perhaps pod bonuses can be those "independent" bonuses.

That or... I am completely fine with battle-lizing Omnimechs... and let them have the ability to drop masc, heat sink, and engine size. I will be ok with that as well.

What is special about omnimechs?

Well first as you did point out omnipods. You may be wondering how this is oh so special when you also pointed out that due to variety of Battlemechs you can shop around and get a Battlemech with the hardpoints you want.

Or...

Just own a fully XP capped mastered Omnimech and reconfigure the pods for new mission roles.

I want a laserboat...new pods or new battlemech with no XP mastery?

I want a Missile boat...new pods or yet another unmastered battlemech to grind?

Want a ballistics heavy loadout? set of pods or a third unmastered battlemech AND of course the mech bays to fit all these battlemechs in.

Omnimechs have been a huge advantage under current system. Buy three variants grind the mastery and sell off the un needed cores and keep the pods.

Omnimechs are significantly lower in cost overall compared to a stable of battlemechs each designated for a seperate and distinct role.

There are a few omimechs with less than optimal locked components. But there are the Arctic Cheetahs,Stormcrows Timber Wolf and Ebon Jaguars etc that are right out of the "box" pretty much as optimal as can be.



Now with all that being said. If there is ever to be Inner Sphere Omnimechs something needs to give.

With locked components Inner Sphere Omnimechs get a whole new batch of issues.

Locked I.S. "deathtrap" XL engines on chassis with poor geometry to avoid side torso destruction (Sunder)

Locked single heatsinks making the cooling inferior to other options ( Strider)

Locked "standard" equipment like BAP TAG and other role specific options (Owens)

Locked standard engines limiting potential payloads and podspace if the XL risk is acceptable to to the designer (Haupman)

Inner Sphere omimechs will be far worse off than clan Omnimechs with the current design rules in MWo.

[razenWing]

El Bandito, on 08 April 2017 - 09:39 PM, said:

1. But I have to buy 3 different battlemechs if I want to use different Hunchback setups.

2. Bad omnimechs can be quirked. OP's suggestion such as unlocking engine, and fixed heatsinks would further powercreep the already good Clan mechs since they can in addition switch pods. So instead of blanket buffing Omnis, thus risking power creep, just buff the underperformers with quirks, like IS mechs.

Let's be honest. No Clan pilots buy just ONE omnimech of a particular chasis and fiddle around with weapon pods. (And this is regardless of mastering)

Unless you are the type of person that also make people wait 10 min between match because you have 4 engines amongst 200 mechs. So the argument of whether you just need one or 3 is just moot.

For example, I have 8 EBJs for 8 configs. I don't feel the omnipods are helping me in any of those scenarios.

Ok, I should clarify, some EBJs must be mixed for effective energy boat, and here lies the weakness of Omnimechs... a regular battlemech can be given 5 energy hardpoints on a torso because PGI/lore deemed it energy config. An omnimech need to scrape together like 4 pods to do the same things. And here and lies my argument... any config an Omni can do, can be found on some variant of any battlemech. It's not like Omni's have this amazing new combo that cannot be achieved by other battlemechs.

And if they do, that's another story, and we have a real argument on Omnimechs being awesome, because they can piece together awesome combos not possible on other mechs. Except, that's not the reality.

Again, I raise the argument that Omni's only seem awesome because they are Clan, not because they are Omnis. You really wan to go lore, almost all Omnis are frontline mechs... meaning, best of the best. All the IICs are second line.. meaning: housewives mech. Yup, because of the stupid restriction PGI put, IICs and other Clan Battlemechs are so much better than Omnis... which isn't right by all account.

---------------

Now, because people get too caught up in the Clan vs IS argument. I am raising the issue more as one sect of Clan tech vs another. So, don't bring your Bk or GHP into this. (a more apt comparison would be Avatar vs BK, if and when PGI decide to have Avatar in the game) Now, obviously, I don't want to see Powercreep. So simply making Omnis the better Clan mech isn't my intention either.

But there has to be ways to make Omnis... different. Otherwise, as I said, battle-lize the Omnis, cause the designation means absolute bullflop right now.

Lykaon, on 08 April 2017 - 10:11 PM, said:

What is special about omnimechs?

Well first as you did point out omnipods. You may be wondering how this is oh so special when you also pointed out that due to variety of Battlemechs you can shop around and get a Battlemech with the hardpoints you want.

Or...

Just own a fully XP capped mastered Omnimech and reconfigure the pods for new mission roles.

I want a laserboat...new pods or new battlemech with no XP mastery?

I want a Missile boat...new pods or yet another unmastered battlemech to grind?

Want a ballistics heavy loadout? set of pods or a third unmastered battlemech AND of course the mech bays to fit all these battlemechs in.

Omnimechs have been a huge advantage under current system. Buy three variants grind the mastery and sell off the un needed cores and keep the pods.

Omnimechs are significantly lower in cost overall compared to a stable of battlemechs each designated for a seperate and distinct role.

There are a few omimechs with less than optimal locked components. But there are the Arctic Cheetahs,Stormcrows Timber Wolf and Ebon Jaguars etc that are right out of the "box" pretty much as optimal as can be.



Now with all that being said. If there is ever to be Inner Sphere Omnimechs something needs to give.

With locked components Inner Sphere Omnimechs get a whole new batch of issues.

Locked I.S. "deathtrap" XL engines on chassis with poor geometry to avoid side torso destruction (Sunder)

Locked single heatsinks making the cooling inferior to other options ( Strider)

Locked "standard" equipment like BAP TAG and other role specific options (Owens)

Locked standard engines limiting potential payloads and podspace if the XL risk is acceptable to to the designer (Haupman)

Inner Sphere omimechs will be far worse off than clan Omnimechs with the current design rules in MWo.

This is very similar to El Bandito's argument which I posted right after you posted yours. Basically.. NO ONE use one Omnimech to switch between "missions."

1: There are no "missions."
2: Mechs are not so expensive with Cbill, that you wouldn't just get 4-5 of the same thing.
3: No one in the right mind except super Cheapskape that don't mind weighing their own unitmate down for 10 min between matches will have just ONE omnimechs to switch weapons. If you do, shame on you for being a cheapskape.

[El Bandito]

razenWing, on 08 April 2017 - 10:18 PM, said:

And here and lies my argument... any config an Omni can do, can be found on some variant of any battlemech. It's not like Omni's have this amazing new combo that cannot be achieved by other battlemechs.

And if they do, that's another story, and we have a real argument on Omnimechs being awesome, because they can piece together awesome combos not possible on other mechs. Except, that's not the reality.

There are builds that cannot be duplicated on Clan battlemechs, such as Timberwolf's 4xSRM6+5xCSPL brawler build, or Hellbringer's 4xCERLL+ECM build, or NGyr/Direwolf's dakka build.

razenWing, on 08 April 2017 - 10:18 PM, said:

This is very similar to El Bandito's argument which I posted right after you posted yours. Basically.. NO ONE use one Omnimech to switch between "missions."

1: There are no "missions."
2: Mechs are not so expensive with Cbill, that you wouldn't just get 4-5 of the same thing.
3: No one in the right mind except super Cheapskape that don't mind weighing their own unitmate down for 10 min between matches will have just ONE omnimechs to switch weapons. If you do, shame on you for being a cheapskape.

It isn't about the C-Bill mech costs. It is about the mechbay costs. Most of the casual player do not drop cash on MWO so they are more stingy about the limited amount of mechbays.

[R Valentine]

Still don't buy it that omnimechs are gimp. The Ebon Jag is one of the most popular mechs on the field and it has no quirks to speak of. It also has a plethora of viable builds. Vindicators are one of the most quirked mechs in the game and virtually never seen. The omnimechs that are bad have almost nothing to do with the locked armor/internal slots that they're supposed to have, and if you went by lore then they'd have locked armor tonnage too(be thankful PGI didn't stick you with that one). They have bad hardpoints, just like all of the bad IS mechs, only there are a lot more bad IS mechs. As long as the game remains hill peekers 'r' us, those mechs will always be bad.