365 replies to this topic

[Hans Davion]

Well fact is, if you stick to IS meta you will be fine. I mean as a clanner have you ever decided to do a bit of trading at 800 - 1000m and gotten REKT by a 6ERLL BLR-G? no matter you were running ERPPCs, ERLL, and all the other junk. before u start whining bout gauss - at 800m it does 3 quarter damage-ish about 23 damage with 2 of em. 6ERLL = 66, ggclose,and u had to expose about 10% of your mech when you just hill poked to get of all 6 lasers. the 6ERLL BLR-G is simply the best long range mech in the game. you can even run a STD with 5 if you want. Only thing the clans have is a 4ERLL ebon jag with a bit TC - good high mounts but still less damage with only 4 lasers. the supernova with 6ERLL is quite good but the low hardpoints....you will get rekt by a BLR-G with equal pilots

If you dont like that, the Blackkight does 5ERLL at 850 effective range, odd hardpoints but the structure buff makes up for it,the Grasshopper 5P with 5ERLL is godmode for its tonnage - even the Zeus and Quickdraw do 5ERLL and 4ERLL amazingly well. you want to trade at range, there is a single weapons system you should take. QUIRKED IS ERLL

other than that yeah, get out your lpls and get in close.
but you have a choice.

[Novakaine]

You know when you smell your own poop just long enough.
You never can tell when you're spewing it.
Grandpa had a harsher noun, but you know gotta keep it PGi.

[Grus]

Hans Davion, on 04 May 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

Well fact is, if you stick to IS meta you will be fine. I mean as a clanner have you ever decided to do a bit of trading at 800 - 1000m and gotten REKT by a 6ERLL BLR-G? no matter you were running ERPPCs, ERLL, and all the other junk. before u start whining bout gauss - at 800m it does 3 quarter damage-ish about 23 damage with 2 of em. 6ERLL = 66, ggclose,and u had to expose about 10% of your mech when you just hill poked to get of all 6 lasers. the 6ERLL BLR-G is simply the best long range mech in the game. you can even run a STD with 5 if you want. Only thing the clans have is a 4ERLL ebon jag with a bit TC - good high mounts but still less damage with only 4 lasers. the supernova with 6ERLL is quite good but the low hardpoints....you will get rekt by a BLR-G with equal pilots

If you dont like that, the Blackkight does 5ERLL at 850 effective range, odd hardpoints but the structure buff makes up for it,the Grasshopper 5P with 5ERLL is godmode for its tonnage - even the Zeus and Quickdraw do 5ERLL and 4ERLL amazingly well. you want to trade at range, there is a single weapons system you should take. QUIRKED IS ERLL

other than that yeah, get out your lpls and get in close.
but you have a choice.

this^^ add in shorter burn times and you can fire 3 before ghost heat kicks in while clan can only fire 2..

Edited by Grus, 04 May 2017 - 01:18 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Grus, on 04 May 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

this^^ add in shorter burn times and you can fire 3 before ghost heat kicks in while clan can only fire 2..

Oh couldn't you fire 6 mini large laser before ghost heat
Is the Clan pulse not similar in beam duration with the is large
Are missile packs not half the weight?
Considering damage per tic er large laser are equal given the Clan weapon the edge.

Of course there are quirks but hey you can have those quirks to
Only need to drop with Koshis Fenris and Manowar.

---

And regarding Poptarters are not OP... oh they wouldn't not ne op given some circumstances.

well to say that you need to understand what the "goal" of the Poptarter is - you can find that in the wiki of MWLL... more or less

The goal is to maximize damage in the briefest of moments. So a short window of engagement.
Given the overall high rate of fire plus non natural choke points of maps - you need to cross through their aim more or less.
(i think poptartes more simple to kill on polar then on mining)

of course the first poptarter era had the issue of non working SRMs so that getting close an blast away didn't work so well. Of course mobility is an issue and after that its mobility - so to counter poptarts you need to find a sweet spot between size, mobility and firepower.
Not to mention that those darn jump jets are only good for poptarting but nothing else. You can't open another front without moving through choke points first - or at least you would need a medium or light lacking firepower to finish a poptart fast enough

and again a word about OP
OP is not what killed you OP is simple a balance of effort.
For exampe the first implementations of ECM - you could choose several ways to counter ECM - but all of them need some active actions and some tonnage were as ECM was simple there = OP

Same for poptarts or sniper in general - if the effort to counter them is much bigger - they are op.
Considering sniper - well I have only seen one guy in the last 25 matches who was a sniper - all the other guys were long range bullys

Edited by Karl Streiger, 04 May 2017 - 10:36 PM.

[B0oN]

Karl, Novakaine ...nobody of sane mind will poptart twice against one (!) single good BLR 5/6ERLL pilot .
Now imagine people bringing 8+ of them (40+ well quirked IS ERLL ... A GLORIOUS SIGHT^^).
Poptarts WILL GET REKT midair, no counter .
I´ve been on the receiving end as well as on the dealing end .

LISTEN to what Hans Davion says, that man knows what to bring where, and I for one dread him as an enemy, since he has excellent awareness, map positioning and high accuracy .
Fighting against him feels to me like fighting my evil twin .

GG EZ, bb clanners .
SO EASY ...

Edited by The Shortbus, 05 May 2017 - 12:30 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

85t mech to counter a 75t mech - to work as team - but what if that poptarter also has a team at hand?

and quirks might be a thing of the past soon enough

[Grus]

Karl Streiger, on 04 May 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

Oh couldn't you fire 6 mini large laser before ghost heat
Is the Clan pulse not similar in beam duration with the is large
Are missile packs not half the weight?
Considering damage per tic er large laser are equal given the Clan weapon the edge.

Of course there are quirks but hey you can have those quirks to
Only need to drop with Koshis Fenris and Manowar.

---

And regarding Poptarters are not OP... oh they wouldn't not ne op given some circumstances.

well to say that you need to understand what the "goal" of the Poptarter is - you can find that in the wiki of MWLL... more or less

The goal is to maximize damage in the briefest of moments. So a short window of engagement.
Given the overall high rate of fire plus non natural choke points of maps - you need to cross through their aim more or less.
(i think poptartes more simple to kill on polar then on mining)

of course the first poptarter era had the issue of non working SRMs so that getting close an blast away didn't work so well. Of course mobility is an issue and after that its mobility - so to counter poptarts you need to find a sweet spot between size, mobility and firepower.
Not to mention that those darn jump jets are only good for poptarting but nothing else. You can't open another front without moving through choke points first - or at least you would need a medium or light lacking firepower to finish a poptart fast enough

and again a word about OP
OP is not what killed you OP is simple a balance of effort.
For exampe the first implementations of ECM - you could choose several ways to counter ECM - but all of them need some active actions and some tonnage were as ECM was simple there = OP

Same for poptarts or sniper in general - if the effort to counter them is much bigger - they are op.
Considering sniper - well I have only seen one guy in the last 25 matches who was a sniper - all the other guys were long range bullys

what? You want in 6 different directions. On a 1 to 1 the clan weapons are very similar "damage" but where IS comes ahead is in the amount they can fire at one time vs clan. So if I can only fire 2 weps that have slightly better damage than their counterparts, and the other guy can fire 3 with no ghost heat, who's doing more damage per trigger pull?

[Killed by Death]

Not Unbalanced?. There is a clear as day Pictograph called the Tug O war bar that rocketed! sideways within one hour of the tournament opening. Spin your reasons anyway you want but Clans are OP.

I'm all for a Stock loadout no Basics gamemode.

[Vxheous]

The Shortbus, on 05 May 2017 - 12:28 AM, said:

Karl, Novakaine ...nobody of sane mind will poptart twice against one (!) single good BLR 5/6ERLL pilot .
Now imagine people bringing 8+ of them (40+ well quirked IS ERLL ... A GLORIOUS SIGHT^^).
Poptarts WILL GET REKT midair, no counter .
I´ve been on the receiving end as well as on the dealing end .

LISTEN to what Hans Davion says, that man knows what to bring where, and I for one dread him as an enemy, since he has excellent awareness, map positioning and high accuracy .
Fighting against him feels to me like fighting my evil twin .

GG EZ, bb clanners .
SO EASY ...

No one in their right mind attempts to poptart extreme range IS ERLL boats. Night Gyrs excel at the 600-700m range. I find that I trade well at extreme range with ERLL, regardless of whether I am playing Clan or IS that week. Clan will usually use CERLL Hellbringers at extreme range to deal with ERLL Battlemaster/Grasshoppers (yes, there is a tonnage/armor/burn duration disparity). Yes, IS can fire 3 ERLL (27 damage @810m for 1.25s, default values) vs Clan 2 CERLL (22 damage @ 843m for 1.5s)

I usually take 3 5xERLL Grasshopper 5P +55 tonner as my extreme range deck as IS, while I take 2 4xCERLL Hellbringers + 2 2xCERPPC Hunchbacks as my extreme range deck as Clan (or 3x 4xCERLL Hellbringer + Light.

Grasshopper is 5xERLL 45 alpha for 80% of heat bar (Polar Highlands), 1.06s burn at 810m (can only alpha once, then have to cycle 3+2)
Hellbringer is 4xCERLL 44 alpha for 60% of heat bar (Polar Highlands), 1.5s burn at 843m (can alpha twice, then cycle 2+2)

Grasshopper dies from XL torso loss
Hellbringer lives with CXL torso loss (though if you lose left torso, 75% weapons are gone)

Obviously I did not include the Battlemaster 1G with 6ERLL for 54 damage at 1.25S burn. There is an obvious armor advantage to using the Battlemaster as the poke mech, granted that mech runs hot even on Polar Highlands.

Overall, IS has the slight edge in extreme poking.

Grus, on 05 May 2017 - 06:53 AM, said:

what? You want in 6 different directions. On a 1 to 1 the clan weapons are very similar "damage" but where IS comes ahead is in the amount they can fire at one time vs clan. So if I can only fire 2 weps that have slightly better damage than their counterparts, and the other guy can fire 3 with no ghost heat, who's doing more damage per trigger pull?

Assuming both sides are face tanking each other and both sides get full burn on each other, it's very close.

2 CERLL = 22 damage 843m
3 ERLL = 27 damage 810m

If you are shooting under IS optimum range (under 810m) IS wins. If you are shooting outside Clan optimal range (greater than 843m) IS damage dropoff will almost even out the 5 damage difference. Consider that a 70 ton Grasshoper has 5xERLL (45 damage) vs a 65 ton Hellbringer has 4xCERLL (44 damage), then it comes out pretty equal (this is again assuming you are able to get full burn off from both sides). The Grasshopper runs hotter than the Hellbringer, but the Hellbringer has almost .5 seconds longer burn duration.

If you look at standard IS large laser (which is balanced against the Clan LPL), 3 LL = 27 damage, while 2 CLPL = 26 damage.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 05 May 2017 - 02:55 PM.

[Grus]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 05 May 2017 - 02:47 PM, said:

No one in their right mind attempts to poptart extreme range IS ERLL boats. Night Gyrs excel at the 600-700m range. I find that I trade well at extreme range with ERLL, regardless of whether I am playing Clan or IS that week. Clan will usually use CERLL Hellbringers at extreme range to deal with ERLL Battlemaster/Grasshoppers (yes, there is a tonnage/armor/burn duration disparity). Yes, IS can fire 3 ERLL (27 damage @810m for 1.25s, default values) vs Clan 2 CERLL (22 damage @ 843m for 1.5s)

I usually take 3 5xERLL Grasshopper 5P +55 tonner as my extreme range deck as IS, while I take 2 4xCERLL Hellbringers + 2 2xCERPPC Hunchbacks as my extreme range deck as Clan (or 3x 4xCERLL Hellbringer + Light.

Grasshopper is 5xERLL 45 alpha for 80% of heat bar (Polar Highlands), 1.06s burn at 810m (can only alpha once, then have to cycle 3+2)
Hellbringer is 4xCERLL 44 alpha for 60% of heat bar (Polar Highlands), 1.5s burn at 843m (can alpha twice, then cycle 2+2)

Grasshopper dies from XL torso loss
Hellbringer lives with CXL torso loss (though if you lose left torso, 75% weapons are gone)

Obviously I did not include the Battlemaster 1G with 6ERLL for 54 damage at 1.25S burn. There is an obvious armor advantage to using the Battlemaster as the poke mech, granted that mech runs hot even on Polar Highlands.

Overall, IS has the slight edge in extreme poking.




Assuming both sides are face tanking each other and both sides get full burn on each other, it's very close.

2 CERLL = 22 damage 843m
3 ERLL = 27 damage 810m

If you are shooting under IS optimum range (under 810m) IS wins. If you are shooting outside Clan optimal range (greater than 843m) IS damage dropoff will almost even out the 5 damage difference. Consider that a 70 ton Grasshoper has 5xERLL (45 damage) vs a 65 ton Hellbringer has 4xCERLL (44 damage), then it comes out pretty equal (this is again assuming you are able to get full burn off from both sides). The Grasshopper runs hotter than the Hellbringer, but the Hellbringer has almost .5 seconds longer burn duration.

If you look at standard IS large laser (which is balanced against the Clan LPL), 3 LL = 27 damage, while 2 CLPL = 26 damage.

Did.. did someone from the Alpha Wolves just confirm my argument? Can someone check and see of he'll froze over?

[justcallme A S H]

Hans Davion, on 04 May 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

Well fact is, if you stick to IS meta you will be fine. I mean as a clanner have you ever decided to do a bit of trading at 800 - 1000m and gotten REKT by a 6ERLL BLR-G?

WHK TC7 / 5ERL - 888m GG

That said, you don't fight at 1000m with that thing. You fight at 1500m. Same as cERPPC poptarting. That is how you have to do it as Clan or pay the price

But otherwise, I concur with everything you've said as usual.


The other good build is actually the EBJ 4 x ERL. That thing is better than a HBR. Again you gotta use that added TC range advantage, almost a baby WHK. Only issue I struggle with in the EBJ is that above cockpit torso, it can lead to being shot before you see what is shooting you. Map / battle awareness can beat that though.

[Killer Kellaine]

We will be returning to the Inner Sphere as soon as our contract is up with the Smoke Jaguars.

Will that make a difference in the Long run. As far as the event is concerned?

[LeucippusK]

Stock

[Fake News]

is is easymode.

[Arkaiko]

Ragnar Baron Leiningen, on 19 April 2017 - 09:17 AM, said:

So I've been dropping IS for about two weeks now. I honestly do not know what is pilots are crying about clans so hard for. My mechs have zero modules on them. (Separate account, very little play time until recently) and I can at least do 1200 damage and 3-4 kills. I mean if you guys would just organize at least into 6-8 mans and learn how to torso twist you would be significantly better. Is mechs run cooler, they are more durable. I don't understand how IS pilots are not stomping the **** out off clans every night. Playing clan requires finess, heat management, managing your fall back points ahead of time. Playing IS should be a cakewalk by comparison.

dude say the **** u want, but this event says the oposite, TY

or sure, maybe just "good clan pilots" and "poor IS pilots" play FW, maybe ALL the facts are wrong and your ****** post is true...

[Vxheous]

Grus, on 05 May 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

Did.. did someone from the Alpha Wolves just confirm my argument? Can someone check and see of he'll froze over?

No, I said that IS shooting 3 vs Clan shooting 2 is less of an advantage than you think. 3 IS ERLL is also 24 heat at 15 tons, while 2 clan ERLL is 20 heat at 8 tons (allowing for more two slot double heatsinks to be packed on)

[Ajantise]

Clans have an indestructible side torso XL engine, and double the weapons with half the slots. They have a heat penalty that can be avoided by firing in chain.
So yes, Clan is OP.
Before it was 50%, now it is 65% stronger.

[MovinTarget]

Ajantise, on 24 May 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

Clans have an indestructible side torso XL engine, and double the weapons with half the slots. They have a heat penalty that can be avoided by firing in chain.
So yes, Clan is OP.
Before it was 50%, now it is 65% stronger.

First:
"Indestructible side torso XL" - I get what you are trying to say (won't die from loss of an ST), but its not like they are unaffected by the loss. IS will be getting LFEs in a couple of months, hang in there.

Second:
"double the weapons with half the slots" - a bit of an exaggeration in most cases. The only time they take up "half the slots" is when the IS equivalent is 2 slots. Normally its closer to 3/4 or 2/3 the slots.

Third:
"They have a heat penalty that can be avoided by firing in chain." - And IS doesn't?

Fourth:
"Before it was 50%, now it is 65% stronger." - Maths or it didn't happen.

Not to be trollish, but ironically, someone from the clan side post this thread today:
https://mwomercs.com...661-is-madness/

Players on both sides complaining about the other side having unfair advantages... interesting...

Edited by MovinTarget, 24 May 2017 - 10:34 AM.

[Ajantise]

MovinTarget, on 24 May 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

First:
"Indestructible side torso XL" - I get what you are trying to say (won't die from loss of an ST), but its not like they are unaffected by the loss. IS will be getting LFEs in a couple of months, hang in there.

Second:
"double the weapons with half the slots" - a bit of an exaggeration in most cases. The only time they take up "half the slots" is when the IS equivalent is 2 slots. Normally its closer to 3/4 or 2/3 the slots.

Third:
"They have a heat penalty that can be avoided by firing in chain." - And IS doesn't?

Fourth:
"Before it was 50%, now it is 65% stronger." - Maths or it didn't happen.

Not to be trollish, but ironically, someone from the clan side post this thread today:
https://mwomercs.com...661-is-madness/

Players on both sides complaining about the other side having unfair advantages... interesting...

First: We agree i hope?
ps. I am not playing until they make the LFE, i am sick of the constant playing with this penalty.

Second: Did you ever see an IS mech with 15 lasers? Or 5x6 streaks?

Third: You did not understand. I was referring to the penalty the clan has with heat.

So the fourth is: ((First+Second)-Third) =50.
Now + No quirks =65

[MovinTarget]

Let me preface by pointing out that the OP was made before the skill tree dropped, and yes, things have changed.

So I've been leveling mechs on an alt account, specifically Warhammers (thanks for the sale!) and I can't afford XL engines. It doesn't seem to be that much of a problem. I am just running 67kph instead of 80... If I lose a torso, I am not penalized in heat or movement. If you are losing your torsos too quick, simply don't use an XL.


Its still apples to oranges. The 15 laser example is an extreme boundary case, only available on, what... 2-3 variants that have considerable drawbacks of speed and/or survivability. The pilot would have to commit so much face time to using all that invested tonnage that is would be rather silly save for niche scenarios.

Come Civil War, you'll have multiple IS mechs that will be able to equip 6+ Streaks (multiple Archers, to start with), so again... hang in there. That is an effective *anti-Light* build, but it simply doesn't work well against anything larger than 45 tons unless already shot up due to spread.

Conversely, consider the 9 SPL Hunchback that, if allowed to close the distance, HAS NO GHOST HEAT.

Now to your... maths... I'm still not sure of your numbers but I will point out that there ARE quirks still, just not as many since you can get them as skills now.

Again, been leveling warhammers and not seeing too much of an overall problem in QP...